AC v. EV?


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Lair Larrikin

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Post Monday, 13th October 2014, 07:40

AC v. EV?

Hey everyone. Rank newbie here, playing a TeFi, specializing in swords and armor. I just got a god gift of a ring mail +4, with reduction in stealth (not a concern) and SInv. Presently I have plate armor +1, and my skill layout is such that I have 21 AC, and 5 EV while wearing the plate armor. While wearing the Ring mail, I have 16 AC and 12 EV. As I haven't a clue about the underlying math behind calculating AC, EV, SH, and how it all matters when keeping me alive, I'm not actually sure this is an improvement. Will someone help the poor clueless newb?

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Post Monday, 13th October 2014, 07:53

Re: AC v. EV?

Generally, you want to aim for a good balance of AC and EV. Tengu have good Dodging apt so I would probably work with that. Ring mail is light enough to have good EV in it, and +4 is a good apt.
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Post Monday, 13th October 2014, 07:54

Re: AC v. EV?

I'd definitely wear the ring mail at the moment. A simple rule of thumb is to add the AC and EV values together; the bigger the sum, the better. With roughly equal sums, it's better to have AC and EV close to each other than far apart.

Heavier armour gives you bonus AC points faster when you train Armour skill.
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Monday, 13th October 2014, 08:14

Re: AC v. EV?

Sprucery wrote:I'd definitely wear the ring mail at the moment. A simple rule of thumb is to add the AC and EV values together; the bigger the sum, the better. With roughly equal sums, it's better to have AC and EV close to each other than far apart.

Heavier armour gives you bonus AC points faster when you train Armour skill.


Thanks. That's what I've been doing, but I wasn't sure if my math actually had any bearing on reality.

As a related question, how does the introduction of a shield change this math, as I have the fighter's starter shield.

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Post Monday, 13th October 2014, 08:45

Re: AC v. EV?

I would probably be wearing the plate, but armour would also be my highest or second highest skill, and I wouldn't have trained any dodging at that point. This is just all things being equal - I haven't looked at your character, of course.

You usually shouldn't be using a shield on a fighter, at the very least because it prevents you from using better weapons.
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Post Monday, 13th October 2014, 09:10

Re: AC v. EV?

Pleroma wrote:Thanks. That's what I've been doing, but I wasn't sure if my math actually had any bearing on reality.

I don't think it actually does; it's more of a thing that's sort of vaguely related and so isn't too bad to use when things aren't extreme.

Lair Larrikin

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Post Monday, 13th October 2014, 09:55

Re: AC v. EV?

mikee wrote:I would probably be wearing the plate, but armour would also be my highest or second highest skill, and I wouldn't have trained any dodging at that point. This is just all things being equal - I haven't looked at your character, of course.

You usually shouldn't be using a shield on a fighter, at the very least because it prevents you from using better weapons.


Hold on, if a fighter shouldn't be using a shield, then who the heck should?
Also, I've kinda skilled into the sword and board thing, since Oka keeps giving me one handed swords, and they're all generally better branded than the greatswords I find lying around
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Post Monday, 13th October 2014, 10:21

Re: AC v. EV?

sword&shield is valid option (I would go for bastard sword or demon blade)
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Post Monday, 13th October 2014, 10:30

Re: AC v. EV?

Actually? spell zapper are usually the ones who can better enjoy a shield.
This isn't a "rule": the fact is good 2 handers (glaive, battleaxe, great sword, dire flai/great mace) are much more common than good 1 hander (demon weapon, double sword, eveningstar, broad axe) and as a tab fighter you want first of all to be actually able to damage enemies well with the weapon - and common but weak 1 hander start to be underwhelming even before lair. On the other hand, caster type have spells, so they somewhat can wait to get a good weapon or just use a worse one (and a backup weapon of elec/distortion can easily bring a char up depths).

Furthermore, as a tab fighter you'll generally have very good hp/ac/ev - getting another worse layer of defence is far worse than getting a better offence.
As rule of thumb you should ditch your shield when you find a good 2 hander - however, if you are lucky and find early on (aka, before Lair) a good one hander, you can eventually commit to sword and board thing (personally, I do prefer two hander over 1 hander at least on tab fighter, but a good 1 hander can actually easily win the game)
Finally, don't get fooled by brand - with the exclusion of elec and distortion (which I don't suggest for a plain fighter) - the base type of the weapon is much more important of the brand (I don't remember the exact formulas, consider it a rule of thumb) - so usually a long sword of flaming will be still worse than a plain great sword.

Anyway, you're lucky as sword is one of the best category to use shield with - because their 1 hander have all somewhat good stats, and the scimitar is especially good and common - you should use one of those, until you get a double/demon sword.

edit: oh, please don't use large shield unless you find an amazing one, because the skill cost increase sharply with its value (e.g. you could go up 15 to get a normal shield, and get lots more fighting/armour/dodging)
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Post Monday, 13th October 2014, 11:57

Re: AC v. EV?

Pleroma wrote:Hold on, if a fighter shouldn't be using a shield, then who the heck should?

The logical answer is people who benefit from using one-handed weapons or no weapons at all. You might benefit from one-handed weapons for instance because you don't do the majority of your damage through melee, or you happen to have found a very good (long-term) one-handed weapon early on. In those cases you would still be better off with just a buckler though. Actual shields require spending a lot of xp that you could usually be better applying to other skills. I know you probably don't like what I'm saying. It's more or less the truth, though.

Also, I've kinda skilled into the sword and board thing, since Oka keeps giving me one handed swords, and they're all generally better branded than the greatswords I find lying around

Yes, but are they actually better?
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Post Monday, 13th October 2014, 12:02

Re: AC v. EV?

I guess an important theme that applies to a thread like this is that very new players will not have a clear idea of what constitutes something like a very good one-handed weapon, just like they won't know whether or not they should be using armour X or armour Y or even what to do with their skills. And that's perfectly fine; there's a lot to learn in crawl and I wouldn't prioritize that stuff either. This is why I've always given advice for fighters in the form of wield the biggest weapon and wear the heaviest armour. It's at least close to correct and doesn't require someone knowing the melee damage formula or what brands do, etc.
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Post Monday, 13th October 2014, 13:28

Re: AC v. EV?

Thats a fair approximation for the weapons I would say, but its pretty poor for armour considering all the variables that go in to defences.

Is your species dex or str based? Are your primary skills dex or str based? Where are you going to put your attribute points on level up? Do you want to make use of skills that will suffer greatly from large armour penalties, like sneaking or spell casting? Not to mention the simple fact that high AC, low EV << moderately balanced AC and EV for most purposes. I mean, if you have 50+ AC but can trade some AC for even a modest gain in EV, you should probably go for it considering there is a limit to what your super high AC is going to do for you.

I think "AC is more important than EV in the early game, but you should try to get a moderate balance if possible for the late game" is a better rule of thumb.

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Post Monday, 13th October 2014, 13:57

Re: AC v. EV?

Dude I'm talking about for a new player who wants to play a fighter.
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Post Monday, 13th October 2014, 14:50

Re: AC v. EV?

For a tengu specifically, heavy armour seems like a big mistake. (You can wear it eventually --- maybe my best character ever was a TeAr wearing crystal plate --- but this is after you have big stats and big skills.) Tengu permaflight gives you a +20% bonus to your EV, so in effect you are punished even more severely than usual for wearing it.

Many people disagree with me, but I almost always hate heavy armour. Before you've had a chance to train any defensive skills, it can be useful. But as soon as you start spending xp on defenses it is almost always easier and more reliable to get a good mix of defenses wearing some random piece of enchanted leather and training Dodging. This doesn't even get into spells, which most characters will want to cast and which strongly punish heavy armour choices. If you're going to ignore spells altogether, then heavy armour gets somewhat more attractive (although even here I would still usually pass on it until very high skills, when the effective penalty to Dodging becomes less because of stepdowns.)

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Post Monday, 13th October 2014, 18:00

Re: AC v. EV?

mikee wrote:
Pleroma wrote:
Also, I've kinda skilled into the sword and board thing, since Oka keeps giving me one handed swords, and they're all generally better branded than the greatswords I find lying around

Yes, but are they actually better?

I am not certain. Is a +11 Scimitar with pain, rC rN and Str +4 better?

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Post Monday, 13th October 2014, 18:05

Re: AC v. EV?

Pleroma wrote:I am not certain. Is a +11 Scimitar with pain, rC rN and Str +4 better?


Yes, a +11 pain scimitar is better than most greatswords, provided you get a few points of Necromancy. (The other add-ons are nice things to have but not what you're going to base weapon decisions on, usually.) That is a strong 1h weapon.

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Post Monday, 13th October 2014, 18:10

Re: AC v. EV?

If 2h weapons were not better, everyone would use 1h weapons because of less XP and/or extra defense due to shields. I believe shields are underrated (at least for large races), even in extended.

Lair Larrikin

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Post Monday, 13th October 2014, 18:12

Re: AC v. EV?

ackack wrote:
Pleroma wrote:I am not certain. Is a +11 Scimitar with pain, rC rN and Str +4 better?


Yes, a +11 pain scimitar is better than most greatswords, provided you get a few points of Necromancy. (The other add-ons are nice things to have but not what you're going to base weapon decisions on, usually.) That is a strong 1h weapon.


So for figuring out strong weapons, do I just add the + to the base damage to get a rough idea? Because I just got god dropped at +9 freeze Bastard Sword, +4 int (wooo)

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Post Monday, 13th October 2014, 18:27

Re: AC v. EV?

Pleroma wrote:
ackack wrote:
Pleroma wrote:I am not certain. Is a +11 Scimitar with pain, rC rN and Str +4 better?


Yes, a +11 pain scimitar is better than most greatswords, provided you get a few points of Necromancy. (The other add-ons are nice things to have but not what you're going to base weapon decisions on, usually.) That is a strong 1h weapon.


So for figuring out strong weapons, do I just add the + to the base damage to get a rough idea? Because I just got god dropped at +9 freeze Bastard Sword, +4 int (wooo)


Base damage is more important than slaying, since Fighting and weapon skills give a multiplicative bonus to it. At very high skills, one base damage is basically worth two slaying. It's also important to look at how fast the weapon can go. With both scimitar and bastard sword, you max out at one attack per .7 turns. The bastard sword probably takes a little more skill to use this effectively (I forget the exact numbers but I think 16 Long Blades is when you'd be at your fastest), which can also be important.

Basically, either of those are excellent 1h weapons. The bastard sword is better unless you plan on putting a pretty substantial investment into Necromancy --- I'd estimate you'd need 10 or more to get to equality.

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Post Monday, 13th October 2014, 18:53

Re: AC v. EV?

We should make a sticky thread that has this info in it and some general brand advice, since I know I've posted threads like this about 50 times and it comes up quite a lot.

Not to discourage people from asking for equipment advice, but just to give some very broad guidelines.
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Post Monday, 13th October 2014, 19:16

Re: AC v. EV?

I agree with mikee that, especially for someone learning the ropes, just wearing a heavy armor to maximize AC is a good idea, as this allows you to focus experience on your weapon skill early on, and is a straightforward and reliable way to make a character that is capable of getting to Lair. You don't have to fuss about item strategy and stat planning as much, and can instead worry mostly about learning tactics. Of course, this assumes that you aren't playing a spriggan or something. So long as you can wear it, you got decent strength, and you are not casting spells, then plate is nearly always going to be a reasonable option. Perhaps not the best option, but a solid one.

Before Lair, you can usually only afford to increase AC or EV, barring some really unusually good luck (or certain species). Unless I am casting spells, I find I have better success overall wearing heavy armor and focusing on AC during this time, all else being equal. So personally I am a big fan of plate, or the occasional chain mail if I find a good ego and enchantment or artefact. Then I see what drops to determine exactly how I want to develop the character. Most often I put points in strength until I get into high teens or so, then switch to dex, and try to get some at least decent EV around the time I am getting my first rune. But I'll divert some attention into spells and possibly int, instead, if some good cheapies are available. Or I'll pick up evocations skill if I've found the items to support it. Or whatever.

Having bad AC means you will have bad "damage spikes," even if you have good EV. This is problematic throughout the game. Having bad EV, on the other hand, means that nearly everything hits you, and so any secondary effects (like corrosion, draining, etc.) are going to accumulate much more easily, which is potentially dangerous, but also really annoying. In addition, as you progress in the game, some attacks (spells in particular—like crystal spear) can have ridiculously high max damage, so with a couple of bad rolls, even very high AC will not, on its own, be as reliable as you'd like. So, ideally you want enough HP that you won't get killed in one or two hits, even if you (however improbably) get a terrible roll. And ideally, around the time you are starting Depths, at the latest (but hopefully earlier, around the start of Vaults), you will at least have very good AC and okay EV, or vice-versa. But you got some time before you start to be really badly and consistently punished for any weak spots (in your resists, in your primary defenses, etc.), and even then, smart use of your consumables will always go a long way.
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Post Monday, 13th October 2014, 20:48

Re: AC v. EV?

We had a similar discussion here.

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Post Tuesday, 14th October 2014, 03:58

Re: AC v. EV?

TeshiAlair wrote:We should make a sticky thread that has this info in it and some general brand advice, since I know I've posted threads like this about 50 times and it comes up quite a lot.

Not to discourage people from asking for equipment advice, but just to give some very broad guidelines.

I pm'ed and into a few months back about writing a short guide to FAQ's to be sticked on the forum, he said it'd be fine and they would sticky it if it was considered of high enough quality. Then I never wrote it. Laziness, it's a curse. If you want to take a stab and short and sweet basics, go ahead ;)

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Post Tuesday, 14th October 2014, 19:26

Re: AC v. EV?

I am a beginner, having just gotten my first ever rune (and now two) with my current MiBe. Thus far I've not encountered any MR+ items except for a +3 ring mail and a couple of Trog-gift launchers that I'm not using. (I have three rods and the disc of storms that I've trained Evocs for, and another rod is in a shop $100 away.) I've been banished once already and Trog's hand doesn't last very long, so lately I've been training up dodging because I feel stuck with the ring mail because I need its MR (Armour skill 18.6, Dodge 18.8). My AC is 29 and my EV is 23; I have no idea whether this is "enough."
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Post Tuesday, 14th October 2014, 20:37

Re: AC v. EV?

MainiacJoe wrote:I am a beginner, having just gotten my first ever rune (and now two) with my current MiBe. Thus far I've not encountered any MR+ items except for a +3 ring mail and a couple of Trog-gift launchers that I'm not using. (I have three rods and the disc of storms that I've trained Evocs for, and another rod is in a shop $100 away.) I've been banished once already and Trog's hand doesn't last very long, so lately I've been training up dodging because I feel stuck with the ring mail because I need its MR (Armour skill 18.6, Dodge 18.8). My AC is 29 and my EV is 23; I have no idea whether this is "enough."


Trog's Hand doesn't last very long, but on the other hand you don't really need it to; it will last long enough for the situations where it is important. You do not need MR ring mail.

29/23 defenses for a Be is somewhat mediocre, but yes, you can win the game with that. Just keep training more dodging for a while.

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Post Tuesday, 14th October 2014, 20:55

Re: AC v. EV?

MainiacJoe wrote:I am a beginner, having just gotten my first ever rune (and now two) with my current MiBe. Thus far I've not encountered any MR+ items except for a +3 ring mail and a couple of Trog-gift launchers that I'm not using. (I have three rods and the disc of storms that I've trained Evocs for, and another rod is in a shop $100 away.) I've been banished once already and Trog's hand doesn't last very long, so lately I've been training up dodging because I feel stuck with the ring mail because I need its MR (Armour skill 18.6, Dodge 18.8). My AC is 29 and my EV is 23; I have no idea whether this is "enough."


I expected more EV with Dodging 18.8, put bonus points into Dex if you didn't.

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Post Tuesday, 14th October 2014, 22:46

Re: AC v. EV?

Sandman25 wrote:
MainiacJoe wrote:... Armour skill 18.6, Dodge 18.8. My AC is 29 and my EV is 23 ...

I expected more EV with Dodging 18.8, put bonus points into Dex if you didn't.

That would be the ring: SustAb rElec rC+ rN+ Dex-3 Int+4 SInv. I've needed SInv in a bad way, and the rElec lets me use disc of storms, and the rC+ will come in handy if I can get enough MR otherwise to put my stash's +3 fire dragon armor back on. It seems that every useful artifact I've encountered this game has a DEX penalty (the +12 demon whip had DEX -5, for instance). I have boosted DEX every time I've gotten a choice IIRC.

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.15.1-4-gac8487e (webtiles) character file.

MainiacJoe the Slayer (Minotaur Berserker)         Turns: 74709, Time: 11:32:58

HP 213/213       AC 29     Str 27      XL: 21   Next: 12%
MP  34/34        EV 23     Int 11      God: Trog [*****.]
Gold 1710        SH  0     Dex 15      Spells:  0 memorised, 20 levels left

rFire  . . .     SeeInvis +     a - +7 dire flail "Psalix" {crush, rC+}
rCold  + + .     Clarity  +     T - +3 ring mail {MR+}
rNeg   + . .     rCorr    .     (no shield)
rPois  +         rRot     .     m - +2 hat {Int+3}
rElec  +         Spirit   .     H - +2 cloak {rPois}
SustAb +         Warding  .     D - +2 pair of gloves {Str+3}
rMut   .         Stasis   .     e - +2 pair of boots
Gourm  .                        E - amulet of clarity
MR     ++...                    r - +4 ring of protection
                                L - ring "Jewon" {SustAb rElec rC+ rN+ Dex-3 Int+4 SInv}

@: very resistant to hostile enchantments, very unstealthy
A: retaliatory headbutt, horns 2
a: Burn Spellbooks, Berserk, Trog's Hand, Brothers in Arms, Renounce Religion
}: 2/15 runes: decaying, gossamer


You are on level 2 of the Lair of Beasts.
You worship Trog.
Trog is extremely pleased with you.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 7 branches of the dungeon, and seen 44 of its levels.
You have visited the Abyss 1 time.
You have also visited: Labyrinth and Ice Cave.

You have collected 5011 gold pieces.
You have spent 3301 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 a - the +7 dire flail "Psalix" (weapon) {crush, rC+}
   (Trog gifted it to you on level 14 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It inflicts extra damage upon your enemies.
   
   It protects you from cold.
 b - a +9 battleaxe of freezing
 h - a +2 battleaxe of flaming
Armour
 e - a +2 pair of boots (worn)
 m - a +2 hat of intelligence (worn)
 D - a +2 pair of gloves of strength (worn)
 H - a +2 cloak of poison resistance (worn)
 T - a +3 ring mail of magic resistance (worn)
Magical devices
 f - a wand of lightning (3)
 i - a wand of cold (6)
 q - a wand of fireball {empty}
 x - a wand of disintegration (9)
 y - a wand of digging (9)
 K - a wand of enslavement (15)
 O - a wand of polymorph
 U - a wand of draining (4)
 Y - a wand of teleportation (4)
Comestibles
 c - 6 bread rations
Scrolls
 k - a scroll of fog
 p - 4 scrolls of blinking
 v - a scroll of fear
 F - 5 scrolls of recharging
 N - 15 scrolls of remove curse
Jewellery
 j - an uncursed ring of teleportation
 r - a +4 ring of protection (right hand)
 z - an uncursed amulet of resist mutation
 C - an uncursed ring of protection from fire
 E - an amulet of clarity (around neck)
 L - the ring "Jewon" (left hand) {SustAb rElec rC+ rN+ Dex-3 Int+4 SInv}
   (You took it off a deep elf conjurer on level 3 of the Elven Halls)   
   
   [ring of sustain abilities]
   
   It sustains your strength, intelligence and dexterity.
   It affects your intelligence (+4).
   It affects your dexterity (-3).
   It protects you from cold.
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It enhances your eyesight.
 R - an uncursed ring of protection from cold
Potions
 d - a potion of invisibility
 n - 13 potions of curing
 J - 2 potions of cure mutation
 P - 4 potions of might
 Q - a potion of resistance
 X - a potion of heal wounds
 Z - 3 potions of haste
Miscellaneous
 s - a disc of storms
 t - a stone of tremors
Rods
 g - a +8 lightning rod (13/13) {!a}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines)
 u - a +5 rod of ignition (13/13) {!a}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines)
 A - a +5 rod of inaccuracy (12/12) {!a}
   (You found it in a labyrinth)


   Skills:
 * Level 23.7 Fighting
 - Level 8.4(14.0) Axes
 + Level 17.4(18.0) Maces & Flails
   Level 2.4(2.8) Slings
 - Level 1.9(2.4) Throwing
 - Level 18.6 Armour
 * Level 18.8 Dodging
 + Level 16.4 Evocations


You have 20 spell levels left.
You don't know any spells.

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (15/15)            Temple (0/1) D:7             Orc (4/4) D:10
    Elf (3/3) Orc:4          Lair (8/8) D:8           Swamp (5/5) Lair:4
 Spider (5/5) Lair:3        Slime (0/6) Lair:6       Vaults (4/5) D:14
  Crypt (0/3) Vaults:3     Depths (0/5) D:15       

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Kikubaaqudgha
Qazlal
Sif Muna
Xom
Zin
The Shining One
Beogh

Shops:
Orc:4 *(}}}   Elf:2 (

Annotations:
D:2 exclusion: downstairs
D:3 exclusion: player ghost, isil's ghost, average DEAE
D:4 exclusion: player ghost, badffsyy's ghost, experienced MiBe
D:5 exclusion: upstairs
Elf:3 Mara
Vaults:4 exclusion: downstairs


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You reflexively headbutt those who attack you in melee.
You have a pair of horns on your head.


Message History

You feel slightly jumpy.
j - a ring of teleportation (right hand)
Unknown command.
Use which ability? (? or * to list)
Okay, then.
Put on which piece of jewellery? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You're wearing all the rings you can. Remove which one?
(? for menu, Esc to cancel)
< or L - the ring "Jewon" {SustAb rElec rC+ rN+ Dex-3 Int+4 SInv}
> or j - a ring of teleportation
You remove your ring of teleportation.
r - a +4 ring of protection (right hand)
Remove which piece of jewellery? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You remove the ring "Jewon" {SustAb rElec rC+ rN+ Dex-3 Int+4 SInv}.
Put on which piece of jewellery? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
L - the ring "Jewon" (left hand) {SustAb rElec rC+ rN+ Dex-3 Int+4 SInv}
Saving game... please wait.
Welcome back, MainiacJoe the Minotaur Berserker.
Trog says: Kill them all!
Press ? for a list of commands and other information.

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##...#.#.# #≈≈≈## #...P#.#####.#.
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There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  the Lernaean hydra (Swamp:5)
  Norris (Elf:2)
  A bone dragon (Abyss:1)
  Nikola (Vaults:1)
  Asterion (Swamp:3)
  2 deep elf blademasters (Elf:3)
  Rupert (D:14)
  A tengu reaver (Vaults:3)
  5 tentacled starspawn (Abyss:1)
  Frances (Spider:1)
  Kirke (Lair:3)
  A draconian monk (Abyss:1)
  2 frost giants
  3 ghost moths
  5 deep elf sorcerers
  4 vault wardens
  3 emperor scorpions (Spider:5)
  A reaper (Abyss:1)
  4 deep elf demonologists
  3 stone giants
  A war gargoyle (Vaults:3)
  A very ugly thing (Vaults:4)
  11 deep elf annihilators
  A black draconian (shapeshifter) (Vaults:1)
  Azrael (Lair:3)
  Snorg (D:14)
  4 deep elf death magi
  A minotaur (Lab)
  3 ettins
  7 ironheart preservers
  3 great orbs of eyes
  2 deep elf high priests (Elf:3)
  2 fire dragons
  9 yaktaur captains
  Harold (Lair:2)
  16 hydras
  A ravenous feature mimic (Vaults:2)
  8 centaur warriors
  A ghost crab (Vaults:3)
  A shambling mangrove (Swamp:3)
  4 ogre magi
  9 alligators
  12 death yaks
  5 thrashing horrors (Abyss:1)
  A hell hog (Abyss:1)
  2 tengu warriors (D:15)
  A vampire mage (Vaults:3)
  4 orc high priests (Orc:4)
  A spriggan berserker (Swamp:3)
  2 catoblepae
  Nergalle (D:12)
  A fire crab (Vaults:1)
  4 wretched stars (Abyss:1)
  7 skeletal warriors
  A hell knight (D:15)
  14 deep elf knights
  4 spriggan druids
  A spatial maelstrom (Abyss:1)
  9 large abominations (Abyss:1)
  An unseen horror (shapeshifter) (Elf:1)
  Erolcha (Orc:4)
  13 deep elf summoners
  21 orb spiders
  2 shadow wraiths
  3 necromancers
  10 ironbrand convokers
  3 unseen horrors
  An ice statue (D:10)
  2 giant orange brains (Vaults:3)
  3 deep trolls (Vaults:2)
  Pikel (D:7)
  10 deep elf conjurers
  15 swamp dragons
  A wizard (D:15)
  10 hill giants
  A wolf spider zombie (Abyss:1)
  10 orc knights
  35 wolf spiders
  48 ugly things
  A hellion (Abyss:1)
  A phantasmal warrior (Vaults:3)
  A fire giant zombie (Vaults:4)
  An orc sorcerer (Orc:4)
  4 griffons
  4 manticores
  10 cyclopes
  A sphinx skeleton (Vaults:4)
  A worldbinder (Abyss:1)
  16 elephants
  2 moths of wrath (shapeshifter)
  A centaur zombie (D:13)
  2 smoke demons (Abyss:1)
  A sixfirhy (Abyss:1)
  5 vault sentinels
  16 red wasps
  4 black mambas
  3 gargoyles
  2 moths of wrath
  A torpor snail (Spider:2)
  11 spiny frogs
  11 komodo dragons
  A centaur skeleton (D:15)
  A queen ant (Lair:7)
  15 demonic crawlers
  A tengu conjurer (D:15)
  A yaktaur skeleton (Vaults:4)
  2 hydra zombies
  A jumping spider (shapeshifter) (Elf:1)
  3 trolls
  Grinder (D:6)
  20 yaktaurs
  4 freezing wraiths
  15 deep elf priests
  7 polar bears
  10 two-headed ogres
  A troll (shapeshifter) (Vaults:4)
  4 ancient zymes (Abyss:1)
  3 queen bees (shapeshifter)
  38 slime creatures
  A slime creature (shapeshifter) (Vaults:2)
  15 blink frogs
  9 giant leeches
  A human zombie (Vaults:3)
  10 ravens
  22 jumping spiders
  8 boulder beetles
  10 baby alligators
  6 raiju (Abyss:1)
  10 bog bodies
  35 tarantellas
  8 spriggans
  38 redbacks
  2 ynoxinuls (Abyss:1)
  A flying skull (Abyss:1)
  2 basilisks (D:14)
  A wyvern (shapeshifter) (D:14)
  3 human skeletons
  2 shadows
  2 ettin skeletons
  30 trapdoor spiders
  A yak (shapeshifter) (D:15)
  6 wraiths
  4 wyverns
  61 yaks
  23 deep elf magi
  3 chaos spawn (Abyss:1)
  A golden eye (shapeshifter) (D:14)
  3 hogs
  A vampire (Abyss:1)
  30 deep elf fighters
  A fire elemental (Spider:1)
  2 neqoxecs
  14 hippogriffs
  An elf skeleton (D:14)
  A steam dragon (D:12)
  26 wolves
  2 hill giant skeletons (D:8)
  36 vampire mosquitoes
  8 hell hounds
  36 swamp worms
  4 wargs
  11 small abominations
  5 soldier ants (Lair:7)
  21 water moccasins
  13 porcupines
  2 mottled dragons
  15 swamp drakes
  3 sky beasts
  45 spiders
  26 orc warriors
  2 ice beasts
  22 centaurs
  A necrophage (D:7)
  10 yellow wasps
  28 ogres
  3 boring beetles
  3 phantoms
  A big kobold (D:7)
  A boring beetle (shapeshifter) (D:15)
  18 crocodiles
  2 gnoll sergeants
  29 giant frogs
  12 insubstantial wisps
  A deep troll simulacrum (Vaults:3)
  5 jellies
  2 human simulacra
  4 wights
  5 scorpions
  A cyclops skeleton (D:14)
  7 electric eels
  A hippogriff zombie (D:9)
  6 crimson imps
  A giant frog zombie (D:12)
  2 goliath beetles
  15 killer bees
  12 hounds
  3 quasits (Abyss:1)
  A starcursed mass (Abyss:1)
  3 giant frog skeletons
  35 orc priests
  An elf zombie (D:15)
  2 iron imps (Abyss:1)
  24 worker ants
  26 orc wizards
  9 iguanas
  4 orange rats
  An ogre zombie (D:7)
  A big kobold zombie (D:9)
  21 sheep
  2 ogre skeletons
  16 gnolls
  66 green rats
  20 adders
  3 shadow imps
  A giant mite (D:8)
  14 white imps
  4 ufetubi (Abyss:1)
  2 worms (D:2)
  An orc zombie (Orc:4)
  3 giant geckos
  An ooze (D:7)
  161 orcs
  10 bats
  A bat zombie (D:7)
  3 giant cockroaches
  23 goblins
  13 hobgoblins
  17 kobolds
  14 quokkas
  A ball python (D:2)
  7 giant newts
  4 jackals
  An orc skeleton (D:7)
  17 rats
  A ballistomycete (D:9)
  4 butterflies
  A crawling corpse (Vaults:4)
  7 fungi
  A macabre mass (Vaults:4)
  6 plants
  A starspawn tentacle (Abyss:1)
1990 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills)
  Arachne (Spider:5)
  Roxanne (Elf:3)
  A frost giant (IceCv)
  6 death yaks
  An ogre mage (D:15)
  An orc high priest (Orc:4)
  2 catoblepae (Lair:8)
  An ice statue (IceCv)
  A harpy (Spider:1)
  A deep elf conjurer (Elf:3)
  An orc sorcerer (Vaults:1)
  3 ugly things (Vaults:2)
  Psyche (Orc:2)
  A spiny frog (Lair:3)
  A demonic crawler (Spider:5)
  A troll (D:14)
  9 polar bears (IceCv)
  5 yaks
  A wolf (IceCv)
  A hippogriff (D:15)
  2 hell hounds
  A killer bee (Lab)
  A crimson imp (D:14)
  2 orc priests
  An orc wizard (Orc:4)
  A sheep (Lair:8)
  A worm (Lab)
  3 orcs
52 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  A ghost moth (Spider:3)
  A deep elf high priest (Elf:3)
  A hill giant (Vaults:2)
  3 trolls
  A two-headed ogre (Elf:3)
  A water moccasin (D:7)
  A wolf (IceCv)
  2 slaves (D:7)
  2 ogres
  6 lost souls
  A hound (D:7)
  An orc priest (Vaults:1)
  A bat (D:8)
  A hobgoblin (D:7)
  A giant spore (D:9)
  A lurking horror (Abyss:1)
  A bush (D:5)
  6 fungi
  A plant (Lair:8)
  20 starspawn tentacles (Abyss:1)
  472 starspawn tentacle segments (Abyss:1)
525 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 2567 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | MainiacJoe, the Minotaur Berserker, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 19/19 MP: 1/1
   126 | D:1      | Reached skill level 4 in Fighting
   167 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 27/27 MP: 1/1
   590 | D:1      | Acquired Trog's second power
  1218 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 33/33 MP: 2/2
  2093 | D:3      | Noticed isil's ghost (average DEAE)
  2263 | D:3      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 41/41 MP: 2/2
  2633 | D:2      | Reached skill level 5 in Maces & Flails
  2930 | D:4      | Noticed an ogre
  2940 | D:4      | Killed an ogre
  2940 | D:4      | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
  2940 | D:4      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 48/48 MP: 2/2
  3148 | D:4      | Reached skill level 6 in Maces & Flails
  3204 | D:4      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 36/56 MP: 3/3
  3360 | D:4      | Noticed badffsyy's ghost (experienced MiBe)
  3385 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  4015 | D:5      | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
  4350 | D:6      | Reached skill level 7 in Maces & Flails
  4354 | D:6      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 62/62 MP: 3/3
  4533 | D:6      | Reached skill level 1 in Slings
  4627 | D:6      | Noticed Grinder
  4641 | D:6      | Killed Grinder
  4641 | D:6      | Reached skill level 8 in Maces & Flails
  4880 | D:6      | Found a stormy altar of Qazlal.
  4906 | D:6      | Identified a scroll of acquirement
  5023 | D:6      | Reached skill level 9 in Maces & Flails
  5023 | D:6      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 71/71 MP: 3/3
  6048 | D:7      | Reached skill level 1 in Throwing
  6049 | D:7      | Noticed a two-headed ogre
  6066 | D:6      | Killed a two-headed ogre
  6066 | D:6      | Reached skill level 10 in Maces & Flails
  6066 | D:6      | HP: 3/73 [scorpion (7)]
  6420 | D:7      | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari.
  6443 | D:7      | Reached skill level 11 in Maces & Flails
  6467 | D:7      | Noticed Pikel
  6487 | D:7      | Killed Pikel
  6487 | D:7      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 81/81 MP: 4/4
  6516 | D:7      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  6576 | D:7      | Reached skill level 12 in Maces & Flails
  6993 | D:7      | Acquired Trog's third power
  7140 | D:8      | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
  7262 | D:8      | Reached skill level 13 in Maces & Flails
  7415 | D:8      | Found a staircase to the Lair.
  8206 | D:8      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
  8331 | D:8      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 91/91 MP: 4/4
  8699 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
  8712 | D:8      | Reached skill level 5 in Armour
  8944 | Lair:1   | Got a smoking turquoise ring
  9290 | Lair:1   | Found a shadowy altar of Dithmenos.
  9292 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
  9439 | Lair:1   | Received a gift from Trog
 10185 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
 10504 | Lair:2   | Noticed a four-headed hydra
 10578 | Lair:2   | Reached XP level 11. HP: 84/101 MP: 4/4
 10932 | Lair:2   | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados.
 11036 | Lair:2   | Noticed Harold
 11055 | Lair:2   | Killed Harold
 11055 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 10 in Armour
 11168 | Lair:2   | Killed a four-headed hydra
 11345 | Lair:2   | Got a crystal arbalest
 11346 | Lair:2   | Identified the +2 arbalest of Greed {freeze, rPois rN+ MR++ Stlth--} (You found it on level 2 of the Lair of Beasts)
 11429 | Lair:2   | Identified the ring "Diottatosi" {Wiz Dex+2} (You found it on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts)
 11540 | Lair:2   | Received a gift from Trog
 12471 | Lair:3   | Noticed a death yak
 12471 | Lair:3   | Noticed a death yak
 12472 | Lair:3   | Noticed a death yak
 12487 | Lair:3   | Killed a death yak
 12501 | Lair:3   | Killed a death yak
 12504 | Lair:3   | Killed a death yak
 12669 | Lair:3   | Found a frozen archway.
 12725 | IceCv    | Entered an ice cave
 12768 | IceCv    | Received a gift from Trog
 12796 | IceCv    | Noticed an ice statue
 12810 | IceCv    | Killed an ice statue
 12910 | IceCv    | Reached XP level 12. HP: 110/112 MP: 5/5
 13075 | IceCv    | Noticed a death yak
 13093 | IceCv    | Killed a death yak
 13096 | IceCv    | Noticed a death yak
 13132 | IceCv    | Killed a death yak
 13397 | IceCv    | Noticed a frost giant
 13397 | IceCv    | Noticed a death yak
 13407 | IceCv    | Killed a frost giant
 13407 | IceCv    | Reached skill level 10 in Dodging
 13418 | IceCv    | Killed a death yak
 14351 | Lair:3   | Noticed an eight-headed hydra
 14361 | Lair:3   | Killed an eight-headed hydra
 14361 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 1 in Axes
 14361 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 1 in Evocations
 14529 | Lair:3   | Found a hole to the Spider Nest.
 14630 | Lair:3   | Received a gift from Trog
 15230 | Lair:4   | Got a brightly glowing hunting sling
 15231 | Lair:4   | Identified the +6 hunting sling "Ijotyur" {freeze, rPois MR+} (You found it on level 4 of the Lair of Beasts)
 15247 | Lair:4   | Noticed a five-headed hydra
 15256 | Lair:4   | Killed a five-headed hydra
 15706 | Lair:4   | Reached XP level 13. HP: 100/122 MP: 14/14
 15744 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 5 in Axes
 16225 | Lair:4   | Found a staircase to the Swamp.
 16806 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 5 in Evocations
 17111 | Lair:5   | Received a gift from Trog
 17112 | Lair:5   | Got a blackened demon whip {god gift}
 17113 | Lair:5   | Identified the +12 demon whip "Greum" {freeze, Dex-5} (Trog gifted it to you on level 5 of the Lair of Beasts)
 18338 | Lair:6   | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits.
 18691 | Lair:7   | Received a gift from Trog
 19359 | Lair:7   | Reached skill level 14 in Fighting
 19870 | Lair:8   | Entered Level 8 of the Lair of Beasts
 19952 | Lair:8   | Received a gift from Trog
 19989 | Lair:8   | Found a labyrinth entrance.
 20063 | Lab      | Entered a labyrinth
 20248 | Lab      | Received a gift from Trog
 20477 | Lab      | Got a jewelled quarterstaff
 20789 | Lair:2   | Identified a +2 rod of inaccuracy (9/9) (You found it in a labyrinth)
 20810 | Lair:2   | Identified a +2 rod of the swarm (9/9) (You took it off a minotaur in a labyrinth)
 21512 | Lair:8   | Reached XP level 14. HP: 133/133 MP: 20/20
 21676 | Lair:8   | Received a gift from Trog
 22268 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 15 in Fighting
 23459 | D:9      | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
 24236 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
 24398 | D:10     | Received a gift from Trog
 24622 | D:10     | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin.
 24946 | D:10     | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
 26217 | D:12     | Received a gift from Trog
 26878 | Spider:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Spider Nest
 27596 | Spider:1 | Noticed Frances
 27607 | Spider:1 | Killed Frances
 27725 | Spider:1 | Noticed Azrael
 27727 | Spider:1 | Reached skill level 16 in Fighting
 27747 | Spider:1 | Noticed Kirke
 28192 | Orc:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Orcish Mines
 28204 | Orc:1    | Reached skill level 15 in Armour
 28226 | Orc:1    | Received a gift from Trog
 28690 | Orc:2    | Noticed Psyche
 28700 | Orc:2    | Killed Psyche
 28727 | Orc:2    | Received a gift from Trog
 28810 | Orc:2    | Reached skill level 10 in Evocations
 29046 | Orc:2    | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
 29555 | Orc:4    | Entered Level 4 of the Orcish Mines
 29613 | Orc:4    | Found Gejaul's General Store.
 29754 | Orc:4    | Noticed Erolcha
 29768 | Orc:4    | Killed Erolcha
 29944 | Orc:4    | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
 30170 | Orc:4    | Received a gift from Trog
 30210 | Orc:4    | Reached XP level 15. HP: 144/144 MP: 14/25
 30453 | Orc:4    | Found a staircase to the Elven Halls.
 31218 | Orc:4    | Found Liw Hala's Gadget Shop.
 31218 | Orc:4    | Found Frekh's Gadget Shop.
 31218 | Orc:4    | Found Baozax's Gadget Boutique.
 31231 | Orc:4    | Found Seppehet's Antique Weapon Boutique.
 31847 | Orc:3    | Received a gift from Trog
 32876 | D:12     | Noticed Nergalle
 32888 | D:12     | Killed Nergalle
 33350 | D:13     | Reached skill level 17 in Fighting
 34296 | D:14     | Noticed Rupert
 34302 | D:14     | Killed Rupert
 34337 | D:14     | Got a shimmering iron ring
 34379 | D:14     | Noticed Snorg
 34395 | D:14     | Killed Snorg
 34949 | D:14     | Received a gift from Trog
 34953 | D:14     | Got a warped dire flail {god gift}
 34954 | D:14     | Identified the +7 dire flail "Psalix" {crush, rC+} (Trog gifted it to you on level 14 of the Dungeon)
 35449 | D:14     | Reached skill level 18 in Fighting
 35720 | D:14     | Found a gate to the Vaults.
 35858 | D:15     | Entered Level 15 of the Dungeon
 36234 | D:15     | Found a staircase to the Depths.
 36500 | D:15     | Reached XP level 16. HP: 148/159 MP: 28/28
 36921 | D:15     | Reached skill level 19 in Fighting
 37106 | D:15     | Received a gift from Trog
 37584 | Lair:2   | Identified the ring "Nuthokk" {Fire rPois rN+ Slay+4} (You found it on level 14 of the Dungeon)
 37849 | Orc:4    | Bought a +5 rod of ignition (13/13) for 1324 gold pieces
 37849 | Orc:4    | Bought a +8 lightning rod (13/13) for 1441 gold pieces
 37851 | Orc:4    | Bought a wand of disintegration (12) for 256 gold pieces
 38149 | Lair:3   | Killed Azrael
 38241 | Swamp:1  | Entered Level 1 of the Swamp
 38297 | Swamp:1  | Received a gift from Trog
 40422 | Swamp:3  | Noticed Asterion
 40433 | Swamp:3  | Killed Asterion
 40963 | Swamp:3  | Reached skill level 20 in Fighting
 41869 | Swamp:4  | Received a gift from Trog
 42690 | Swamp:4  | Got a faintly glowing scale mail
 42703 | Swamp:4  | Identified the cursed -2 scale mail of Eternal Night {Str+2 Dex+4} (You found it on level 4 of the Swamp)
 43543 | Lair:3   | Killed Kirke
 43543 | Lair:3   | Reached XP level 17. HP: 151/170 MP: 29/29
 43837 | Spider:1 | Received a gift from Trog
 45292 | Spider:2 | Received a gift from Trog
 46833 | Spider:3 | Received a gift from Trog
 48448 | Swamp:5  | Entered Level 5 of the Swamp
 48867 | Swamp:5  | Received a gift from Trog
 49653 | Swamp:5  | Noticed the 27-headed Lernaean hydra
 49815 | Swamp:5  | Got a decaying rune of Zot
 49885 | Swamp:5  | Killed the 27-headed Lernaean hydra
 49885 | Swamp:5  | Reached XP level 18. HP: 178/180 MP: 31/31
 49886 | Swamp:5  | Received a gift from Trog
 51132 | Spider:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Spider Nest
 51381 | Spider:5 | Noticed Arachne
 51387 | Spider:5 | Killed Arachne
 52967 | Spider:5 | Reached skill level 21 in Fighting
 53115 | Spider:5 | Reached skill level 15 in Maces & Flails
 53123 | Spider:5 | Reached skill level 15 in Dodging
 53148 | Spider:5 | Received a gift from Trog
 53922 | Spider:5 | Got a gossamer rune of Zot
 54471 | Orc:4    | Bought a wand of cold (6) for 280 gold pieces
 54503 | Elf:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Elven Halls
 55631 | Elf:2    | Found Ashehi's Weapon Shoppe.
 56206 | Elf:2    | Received a gift from Trog
 56574 | Elf:2    | Noticed Norris
 56590 | Elf:2    | Killed Norris
 57292 | Vaults:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Vaults
 57292 | Vaults:1 | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One.
 57761 | Vaults:1 | Noticed Nikola
 57779 | Vaults:1 | Killed Nikola
 58398 | Vaults:1 | Reached XP level 19. HP: 148/190 MP: 32/32
 59585 | Vaults:1 | Received a gift from Trog
 59633 | Vaults:1 | Identified a -3 rod of shadows (9/9) (You found it on level 1 of the Vaults)
 59811 | Vaults:1 | Reached skill level 15 in Evocations
 60574 | Vaults:2 | Found a staircase to the Crypt.
 60818 | Vaults:2 | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna.
 61605 | Vaults:2 | Received a gift from Trog
 61764 | Vaults:2 | Reached skill level 22 in Fighting
 62348 | Vaults:2 | the staircase to the Crypt was a mimic.
 62911 | Vaults:3 | Paralysed by a great orb of eyes for 4 turns
 63703 | Elf:3    | Entered Level 3 of the Elven Halls
 63750 | Elf:3    | Noticed Roxanne
 63765 | Elf:3    | Killed Roxanne
 64695 | Elf:3    | Got a slimy hand axe
 64739 | Elf:3    | Identified the +6 hand axe "Skueritumy" {drain, rPois} (You found it on level 3 of the Elven Halls)
 65039 | Elf:3    | Received a gift from Trog
 65233 | Elf:3    | Got a steaming steel ring
 65612 | Lair:2   | Identified the ring "Jewon" {SustAb rElec rC+ rN+ Dex-3 Int+4 SInv} (You took it off a deep elf conjurer on level 3 of the Elven Halls)
 65886 | Elf:3    | Reached XP level 20. HP: 190/202 MP: 33/33
 66194 | Elf:3    | Cast into the Abyss (deep elf sorcerer)
 66951 | Abyss:1  | Found a viscous altar of Jiyva.
 67428 | Abyss:1  | Found a corrupted altar of Lugonu.
 68074 | Abyss:1  | Reached skill level 23 in Fighting
 68078 | Abyss:1  | Found a corrupted altar of Lugonu.
 68385 | Abyss:1  | Found a corrupted altar of Lugonu.
 68503 | Elf:3    | Escaped the Abyss
 69032 | Elf:3    | Noticed Mara
 70090 | Vaults:2 | Received a gift from Trog
 72124 | Vaults:3 | Found a staircase to the Crypt.
 72143 | Vaults:3 | Received a gift from Trog
 73702 | Vaults:4 | Reached XP level 21. HP: 199/212 MP: 34/34
 73858 | Vaults:4 | Received a gift from Trog
 74645 | Lair:2   | Upgraded the game from 0.15.1-3-g1b33baa to 0.15.1-4-gac8487e


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Mace              |    35 |       |       |       |       |       |       ||    35
       Whip              |    45 |    76 |   316 |   575 |       |       |       ||  1012
       Unarmed           |       |    22 |       |       |       |     3 |    14 ||    39
       Flail             |       |       |    10 |       |       |       |       ||    10
       Battleaxe         |       |       |       |    64 |   327 |   106 |    26 ||   523
       Dire flail        |       |       |       |    25 |       |  1016 |  1323 ||  2364
       Demon whip        |       |       |       |       |  1050 |   454 |       ||  1504
       Rod               |       |       |       |       |       |    15 |       ||    15
 Fire: Hunting sling     |       |     9 |    15 |    29 |       |       |       ||    53
       Blowgun           |       |       |       |    19 |       |   184 |       ||   203
Throw: Stone             |    25 |     2 |    78 |    22 |     5 |       |       ||   132
       Tomahawk          |       |       |     3 |     3 |   100 |     5 |       ||   111
Invok: Berserk           |       |     3 |     9 |     4 |     5 |     9 |     6 ||    36
       Trog's Hand       |       |       |     1 |     1 |     1 |     4 |     3 ||    10
       Burn Spellbooks   |       |       |       |     6 |     5 |     3 |     3 ||    17
       Brothers in Arms  |       |       |       |     4 |     9 |     2 |     5 ||    20
Evoke: Wand              |       |       |     2 |     3 |    13 |    10 |    18 ||    46
       Rod               |       |       |       |       |     3 |    27 |    25 ||    55
       Disc of storms    |       |       |       |       |       |       |     3 ||     3
  Use: Scroll            |     6 |     6 |     7 |     5 |    25 |    23 |    19 ||    91
       Potion            |       |       |     2 |       |     3 |     4 |    11 ||    20
 Stab: Fleeing           |       |       |       |     1 |       |       |       ||     1
       Distracted        |       |       |       |       |     1 |       |     1 ||     2
       Confused          |       |       |       |       |       |     2 |       ||     2
       Invisible         |       |       |       |       |       |       |     3 ||     3
  Eat: Chunk             |     1 |     8 |    11 |    14 |    33 |    42 |    13 ||   122
       Pizza             |     1 |       |       |       |     3 |     1 |     4 ||     9
       Fruit             |       |     2 |     1 |     1 |     5 |     8 |       ||    17
       Beef jerky        |       |       |     1 |       |       |     2 |     2 ||     5
       Bread ration      |       |       |     1 |     3 |     4 |     5 |     6 ||    19
       Meat ration       |       |       |     1 |       |     1 |     2 |     2 ||     6
       Royal jelly       |       |       |       |       |     1 |     1 |     1 ||     3
Won (52). Remaining (15): 5 species: Ba, Fe, Mu, Na, Op; 5 Backgrounds: AM, Wr, Su, AE, Ar; 5 gods: Jiyv, newNem, WJC, newSif, newFedh

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1822

Joined: Thursday, 31st May 2012, 15:45

Post Tuesday, 14th October 2014, 22:57

Re: AC v. EV?

ackack wrote:Trog's Hand doesn't last very long, but on the other hand you don't really need it to; it will last long enough for the situations where it is important. You do not need MR ring mail.

29/23 defenses for a Be is somewhat mediocre, but yes, you can win the game with that. Just keep training more dodging for a while.

When i switch into +3 Fire Dragon Armor, I go from 29/23 MR++ rC++ to 35/21 MR+ rF++ rC+. It seems you're suggesting the extra AC is worth getting if I have Trog's Hand for when banishers and hexers are about? The rF++ will certainly encourage me to use my rod of ignition and scrolls of immolation more, but I do read a lot here about how MR++ is minimum for the endgame of even a 3-rune game and so it makes be nervous to go to MR+. A lot of that I think is that I'm just not familiar yet with who the dangerous spellcasting monsters are.
Won (52). Remaining (15): 5 species: Ba, Fe, Mu, Na, Op; 5 Backgrounds: AM, Wr, Su, AE, Ar; 5 gods: Jiyv, newNem, WJC, newSif, newFedh

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6454

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Tuesday, 14th October 2014, 23:18

Re: AC v. EV?

With trog's hand you'll have MR+++, if you have a ring of protection from magic you can swap it quickly for the extra + if you feel like it.
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Barkeep

Posts: 4435

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Wednesday, 15th October 2014, 00:14

Re: AC v. EV?

Also, most things that check MR also require line of fire, so another tactic to reduce banishment is to not give banishers line of fire on you for long (another reason to kill stuff fast). There are plenty of banishers though, so this can get inconvenient and MR is nice.
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 329

Joined: Tuesday, 7th May 2013, 17:09

Post Wednesday, 15th October 2014, 03:16

Re: AC v. EV?

MainiacJoe wrote:
ackack wrote:Trog's Hand doesn't last very long, but on the other hand you don't really need it to; it will last long enough for the situations where it is important. You do not need MR ring mail.

29/23 defenses for a Be is somewhat mediocre, but yes, you can win the game with that. Just keep training more dodging for a while.

When i switch into +3 Fire Dragon Armor, I go from 29/23 MR++ rC++ to 35/21 MR+ rF++ rC+. It seems you're suggesting the extra AC is worth getting if I have Trog's Hand for when banishers and hexers are about? The rF++ will certainly encourage me to use my rod of ignition and scrolls of immolation more, but I do read a lot here about how MR++ is minimum for the endgame of even a 3-rune game and so it makes be nervous to go to MR+. A lot of that I think is that I'm just not familiar yet with who the dangerous spellcasting monsters are.


Yes, wear the FDA.

When in doubt, if you think a monster might cast, you can look at it with xv and see what it knows. Banishment can be a nuisance, but your character is powerful enough now that it shouldn't be more than that. Other common spells you want to not have cast on you: Paralyze; Petrify; Slow; Confuse. Monsters with more HD (basically, if you see them later in the dungeon) cast spells that are harder to resist, so orc wizards are less worrisome than ancient liches. Here's a no-doubt incomplete list of some of the monsters you should consider busting out Trog's Hand for:

orc wizard
orc sorcerer
wizard
necromancer
great orb of eyes
ogre mage
vault sentinel
naga mage
greater naga
siren
merfolk avatar (or mermaids and sirens if you're playing pre-trunk)
sphinx
lich
ancient lich
deep elf sorcerer
deep elf demonologist
uniques (Sigmund, Grinder, Natasha, Jorgrun, Louise, Rupert, Norris, Jory, Aizul, The Enchantress ---in general, I'd recommend checking every unique until you know them)

For this message the author ackack has received thanks:
MainiacJoe

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