Ogre Wizard fun !

[Ququman]

Yeah because they are. I like how they have a ton of hp and good spellcasting :3

But I have a few problems with Ogre Wizards. Yes. Because they're not actually that easy (if not hard !)
First, at some point it seems my spells are just weak compared to the monsters I'm facing, even if they remain very useful (just Blink is a great part of the fun). How can I fix it ? I think this is the drawback to the wizard starting book but still, I have trouble with Lair because of that (maybe I'm doing something wrong ?).

Also my melee skills are not really good despise the fact I trained a bit of fighting and maces. Should I go for the giant spiked club as soon as I can, or should I try to find a good 1H mace/whip ?

About gods. I mostly worship Vehumet (the "Vehumet aids your magic" thingy and the MP/kill gain are very good for OgWz imo) but god gifts are so slow at first :p Can Sif be better than Vehumet for an Ogre ? I also considered Ash for the xp boost and because overall Ash is fun to play, but is it really a viable option ? Or maybe a more melee god ?

Anyways. Ogres are fun :3

EDIT : unrelated question, when you don't find the god you want to worship in the temple and you didnt meet him before, should you pick an other god instead so you don't waste time w/o piety ? I can't find Vehumet on my new Ogre sorry for the unrelatedness ^^"

[Baldurino]

Just give it to me straight man do you think ogres are fun or not?

Just follow Tazoz' mummy guide viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1408

I have done lair with Ogre wiz before. Here is the basic strategy which I copied from tazoz mummy guide.

Go vehument.

Skills:

Fighting - On
M&F - 2 then off (if using whip of *brand*) This is to get attack speed at average
SB - 2 then off (if using short sword of *brand*) This is to get attack speed at average

Stealth - On
Dodging - On

Spellcasting - On
Air - On
Conj - 4 then off
charms - off
poison - off

Go as far as you can in the main dungeon, orc, and the lair without getting out of depth. If you find Hive and have poison resist do that as well. Vehumet will gift you the first book or even second book by the time you are done. Then go pwn the lair with at least meph cloud and lightening bolt. Hopefully you will also have poison cloud and IMB.

This will get you to past the lair for sure.

[Ququman]

Yeah, I do like Ogres for some reason :3 But I realize they're low tier for sure.

Thank you for your answers ! I'll try it all :3

M&F - 2 then off (if using whip of *brand*) This is to get attack speed at average

Don't you want a good melee potential for your ogre ? I was thinking leveling M&F a bit in order to be able to wield decent weapons and have some melee power along with spellcasting but maybe it's not specialized enough

[slowcar]

The reason to switch off the weapon skill is simple: Put your EP where you need them. It means more EP go to the fighting skill when you melee.
The same reason is used for conjuration, for example. When it is switched off more EP go to spellcasting.

The weapon skill is mainly important for the attack speed. As a caster/hybrid you can use a whip/demon whip, it has good values and is very fast.
The weapon speed is included in the spellcasting formula, better not run around with a Giant Mace without the appropriate level in M&F.

I think as a mummy it is even harsher, that's why the guide suggests it, as an Ogre you should probably leave the weapon skill on till min delay (12) - or maybe not, i am not an expert number cruncher here.
I think most "real" casters use melee only to train their fighting skill for more hitpoints.

[Galefury]

AFAIK weapon skill levels don't mitigate weapon speed casting penalty. Also the penalty is gone in 0.9. And it is quite small anyway.

I always try to be at least halfway competent in melee as a caster, either by using an enhancer staff, or a fast regular weapon. It really helps when your MP run out, and makes training fighting easier. Staff acquirement is actually not a bad idea for casters if you're going to get a good melee one.

[KoboldLord]

The reason to switch off the weapon skill is simple: Put your EP where you need them. It means more EP go to the fighting skill when you melee.
The same reason is used for conjuration, for example. When it is switched off more EP go to spellcasting.

If you're settling for 'average' attack speed, that means monsters are going to hit you more often between your own attacks. If monsters attack you more often, that means dodging and armor are going to suck up more of the xp you think you're saving for fighting. So I recommend you leave it on until you hit the minimum delay.

Turning off conjurations in favor of spellcasting is likewise not going to be cut-and-dried in actual play. Spellcasting has a wide variety of important benefits, but another level of a relevant magic skill will sharply increase your spell power, meaning you deal more damage faster. Dealing more damage faster means you are less likely to die. The impact of getting late-game spells castable unusually early is also fairly dramatic.

[Ququman]

Okay so what I did is I turned off M&F once I hit 6 (average attack speed) in order to boost my HP (fighting currently at 2, and my HP around 100 I think). I am now in Lair and it's going pretty well, I think this is an excellent idea to turn of weapon skills for some time in order to level up fighting ! I'll be doing this for a while then i'll level up M&F again because I still think it's always good to have a decent attack speed :3

[Baldurino]

If you're settling for 'average' attack speed, that means monsters are going to hit you more often between your own attacks. If monsters attack you more often, that means dodging and armor are going to suck up more of the xp you think you're saving for fighting. So I recommend you leave it on until you hit the minimum delay.

Training dodging isn't so bad, even on an ogre. If it bothers you so much you can turn dodging off.

You only melee weak encounters, or ones that are in a meph cloud.

Turning off conjurations in favor of spellcasting is likewise not going to be cut-and-dried in actual play.

Yeah cuz we were all talking about "pretend" play. Honestly i never really noticed with this build. Conj is only required at high levels if you want orb of destruction. It's not necessary. You can leave conj on the whole time, but I find it sucks too much experience.

Spellcasting has a wide variety of important benefits, but another level of a relevant magic skill will sharply increase your spell power, meaning you deal more damage faster. Dealing more damage faster means you are less likely to die.

MP will help. Having more than 4 or 5 in conj (especially up to the mid game) isn't going to help

The impact of getting late-game spells castable unusually early is also fairly dramatic.

That's why we are pumping Air magic... to get tornado

[KoboldLord]

Training dodging isn't so bad, even on an ogre. If it bothers you so much you can turn dodging off.

Perhaps you misunderstand my point. Turning off weapon skills while still at slower weapon speeds does not accomplish the stated goal of pushing more xp into fighting, because slow weapon speeds reduce the number of training events for the fighting skill. Therefore, advising that a player do so for that purpose is giving bad advice. Even if by dumb luck the bad advice has some positive (albeit clearly suboptimal in this case) effect, the reasoning is unsound.

You only melee weak encounters, or ones that are in a meph cloud.

The description 'weak encounter' is relative to the strength of your character, and one of the factors that has the most significant impact on this particular issue is weapon skill. A caster who has no weapon skill will struggle to melee imps and green rats. A caster with decent weapon skill will safely train fighting against yaktaur packs.

Yeah cuz we were all talking about "pretend" play.

Clearly. Which is the problem I was objecting to.

Honestly i never really noticed with this build. Conj is only required at high levels if you want orb of destruction. It's not necessary. You can leave conj on the whole time, but I find it sucks too much experience.

That mummy guide has proven to have issues in CIP threads on this very board because the desired books don't always show up. Mummies and ogres also have wildly different play challenges which make some of the particulars questionable.

MP will help. Having more than 4 or 5 in conj (especially up to the mid game) isn't going to help

If you are speaking only in the context of the mummy guide, I can only snicker under my breath. It is not a good idea to slave yourself to an internet build before you even start chargen.

If you're talking about casters in general, then you're just flat-out wrong. There is a massive difference in damage output between a conjuration that is just barely castable at excellent and a conjuration that has been trained to reach its power cap.

[Baldurino]

LOL you're wrong about fighting.You don't need 12 M&F to train up fighting rapidly.

If you are strong enough to take on a pack of early yakturs in the open wihout spells then you are not a real wizard. IF you are fighting in a corridor, just use mephcloud and kill them. No need for a high M&F, especially in the early-mid game.

Conj is not necessary in the early game. Just train it to 4.

Judging from your #posts you must come here a lot. Instead of whinging in your posts about being a slave to the build how about you help this guy out and post your own Ogre wiz strat?

I like tazoz guide and respect his thoughts because he finished a couple of 15 runers and a whole bunch of ziggs with his build. I found it applies to ogres well because mummies and ogres both have terrible apts.

Show me your 0.8 ascended ogre wiz and of course i will bow down.