How good is an eveningstar?

[Magipi]

Right now, my GrBe has 3 good weapons:

  Code:

 a - a +9 eveningstar of crushing (weapon)
 j - a +9 antimagic demon whip
 u - the +8 demon whip "Broz" {freeze, rC+ Str+3 Int-1}

So, which one should I use as default? Agains dangerous casters, I want to use the antimagic weapon. And against others?

http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Magipi/Magipi.txt

[Octopode-monk-of-XOM]

id use the evening star "default". its the same stats like a battleaxe but one handed. with lots of slaying the whips might get better, and especially without haste or stacked haste/finesse (where evening star should be better from my understanding, because the whip cant get much faster then)

it fills the gap better since low armored targets are often casters, vs which u use the anti-whip anyway

[letownia]

I'd go with the freezing demon whip.
1.) Freezing is one of the best brands (crushing +16% VS freezing : +25% dmg, , even against rc+ it does +12% dmg)
2.) Attack speed of .5 vs .7 is a 40% difference in attack speed. Basically you get nearly 3 attacks in the time it takes to get 2 attacks from the evening star.
2a.) You don't 'overkill' as much (i.e. spending .7 turns to finish off an almost dead opponent or low-ac opponent rather than spending .5 turns)
3.) You can switch to the evening star for high AC or cold resistant monsters.
4.) You can switch to a more useful ring rather than using the rc+ one.

edit: disclaimer. I looooove demon whips :p Maybe I'm biased.

[Octopode-monk-of-XOM]

i read about berserk and finesse and stacking with haste - then noticed it doesnt increase speed further well i never played trog anyway and okawaru only a little.

its not a clear decision both weaps are good ofc. but when it mattered an evening star seemed pretty strong on my midgame chars - only know this effect from elec demon whips or sacred scourges vs unholy's which are really strong(and not from freezing /flaming / crushing whips without slaying or really high skills). i feel like the wiki is correct about "freezing/crushing on big base dmg weapons - pain electrocution on fast weapons"

the 16 and 25% wont even make a difference i guess(bc base dmg is also 40% difference) but the part about speed i agree with u.

but i wonder why magipi asks those questions. u have decent amount of wins and one of the best win/loss ratios over decent sample i have seen, at least for normal players who dont play mega concentrated every online game.

[mopl]

but i wonder why magipi asks those questions. u have decent amount of wins and one of the best win/loss ratios over decent sample i have seen, at least for normal players who dont play mega concentrated every online game.

Because you don't need to play in an optimal way to have decent amount of wins !
I think that what could help here is some fsim numbers, ...

I have the same question : which one of those 2 should I rebrand to have a good weapon against living and non-living ? (3 or more ?brand weapon available, and enough food to make vamp swapable...).

  Code:

 a - a +8 vampiric eveningstar
 D - a +5 vampiric demon whip

[Octopode-monk-of-XOM]

yea i have some wins now too, none online yet but splatted some chars there around 5-8 runes im far from optimal thats sure. too bad it runs so slow online on my laptop.. will drive me to offline again soon.

since u are mostly playing 15 rune games, i wouldnt overwrite any of the brands if not really necessary. chances are high to get freeze/fire/vorpal and maybe u want the whip back later on for a zig, when u have high slaying. but then again im also a consumable hoarder sometimes and creep through midgame just to be a little stronger in the end which isnt advisable ofc

no other demon whips to overwrite? in depths and esp. pan they are very common imo. afaik u cannot get holy wrath brand from scroll and electrocution has a pretty low chance also.

from learnDB:

Brands melee weapons to: 19.0% flaming, 19.0% freezing, 15.8% vorpal, 12.7% venom, 9.49% drain, 9.49% electrocution, 7.59% protection, 5.06% vampiricism, 1.90% chaos. Ranged weapons: 25% flame, 25% frost, 16.6% venom, 16.6% vorpal, 10% evasion, 4.2% electrocution, 2.5% chaos. Reroll if same as current brand or disliked by your god.

u know how to judge my opinion - once a noob but playing a lot lately

[Patashu]

Pick up a great mace, brand it, enchant it, bash things with it, be happy

[headcrab0803]

crushing eveningstar does more damage on rc dudes
freezing demon whip does more damage on none rc dudes
antimagic is your go-to against dangerous casters

and its not like you cant swap weapons or anything

[Lasty]

Pain and elec are exceptionally good brands on weapons that swing at 7 AUT as well as weapons that swing at <7 AUT, and even on the biggest, slowest weapons are competitive with or better than freezing/flaming against susceptible targets.

Overall, if you're struggling to pick between two weapons that both seem really good, chances are the decision between the two doesn't matter, and you might as well flip a coin. Sometimes I have the same issue, but at the end of the day, you've got two very good weapons, and whichever one you pick will be very good.

[Hurkyl]

At 16 fighting 16 M&F 20 Str 9 Dex, here is the damage per aut that you do with the eveningstar / antimagic whip / freezing whip:

vs Hill Giant: 25.3 / 21.2 / 26.0
vs Stone Giant: 19.8 / 15.3 / 18.7
vs Frost Giant: 21.3 / 16.7 / 16.7
vs Spriggan Defender with buckler: 9.5 / 8.2 / 10.0

So, IMO, the Eveningstar is the clear choice, unless you have a bunch of extra slaying bonuses. Although this is just one arrangement of skills/stats, so grain of salt.

[Siegurt]

Note that in addition to literal slaying bonuses and some brands, things like aux attacks !might, and most notably for this case berserk give flat bonus-per-attack damage bonuses.

While Berserked those demon whips will deal out destruction like nobody's business.

However they all do excellent damage, and whichever you choose will be quite satisfactory.

[Magipi]

Thank you for the answers, everyone. For quite some time, I used the freezing dwhip and the eveningstar simultaneously, to determine which one I like more, and finally I ended up with the eveningstar. First, it deals more damage to high-AC targets. Second, I never used an eveningstar before. And third: it was Trog's gift, while the freezing dwhip was just some loot from an ice cave

All ended well, the YAVP is here: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=13561

[Bloax]

Yes, eveningstars are good stuff.

At 16 fighting 16 M&F 20 Str 9 Dex, here is the damage per aut that you do with the eveningstar / antimagic whip / freezing whip:

vs Hill Giant: 25.3 / 21.2 / 26.0
vs Stone Giant: 19.8 / 15.3 / 18.7
vs Frost Giant: 21.3 / 16.7 / 16.7
vs Spriggan Defender with buckler: 9.5 / 8.2 / 10.0

So, IMO, the Eveningstar is the clear choice, unless you have a bunch of extra slaying bonuses. Although this is just one arrangement of skills/stats, so grain of salt.

Every time I see fsim results I can't help but recall a certain fsim I did a while ago.
But then again, who plays transmuters these days.

[duvessa]

That has absolutely nothing to do with this thread whatsoever.