Surviving the new abyss

[b561248]

I just lost a level 19 DsWz after he got banished in the eleven halls. Prior to the revamping of the abyss, this would be no big deal - I kept on swiftness, repel missiles, and phase shift, had controlled blink at 1%, etc. But I got creamed. Mainly it was those twinkly smiting amoeba things, along with a ton of mutations from one of those star things (made me immediately overloaded)

I think it's kinda crazy that the abyss is so dangerous now - in my experience I've had characters breeze through hell and pan, but have serious trouble in the abyss. This seems crazy since it's the one extended area that characters of all levels can end up in. Why is it so hard, and is there a new strategy for the abyss that I'm not getting?

[Tedronai]

Keep moving. Kill easy stuff before it piles up. Escape from scary stuff by blocking LOS or activating teleport. Do that until you find an exit.

[Wahaha]

The first step to surviving the abyss is to not get banished. That means not doing elf at XL 19, or preferably ever.

The new abyss isn't really harder. The problem was that you encountered new enemies and didn't deal with them properly. For starcursed masses, you either run away with a movement speed boost and lose them, or kill them as fast as possible. Just don't let them multiply in los, which you probably did. For wretched stars, if you get bad mutations just kill 1 or 2 enemies and they go away.

As general strategy, as soon as I enter the abyss I turn on stealth on most characters, who also often have a lot of dex. It makes it easy to explore while avoiding 90% of enemies that you want to avoid. Less fights helps conserve hp/mp.

[b561248]

You really think abyss isn't more dangerous? Used to be that the worst you'd ordinarily run into were large abominations , bone dragons, smoke demons - nothing that dangerous. But you're right, I dealt with the new enemies all wrong - that's the kind of advice I wanted, thanks.

[Amnesiac]

I've been banished to the abyss like a thousand times by elves(however stupid that may sound). If I can survive 3 banishments in one elf:3 dive, then I'm pretty sure that the abyss is not that dangerous. Oh and I was lv 15 after clearing them so I would imagine that I was something like 11 before entering. It's very easy to break LoS in the abyss. You just need to run away from everything.

[Viashino_wizard]

Don't go below Abyss:1 if you're not looking for the rune.

[duvessa]

The new abyss isn't really harder.

I strongly disagree with this. Since 0.9:
- blink no longer gives you an instant teleport
- walls randomly change all the time, mostly nullifying terrain tactics
- monsters randomly appear right next to you
- raiju are super common and most characters will die to them if they don't teleport away

That said, new Abyss is dramatically more luck-based than old Abyss (also, every other part of the game) so if the only keys on your keyboard are tab and < then it is possibly easier.

[Siegurt]

I also do find the Abyss significantly harder with a character whose primary offense is conjurations, compared to one that uses a weapon as it's primary offense, the Abyss's shifty nature means that range isn't as powerful, and the constant stream of baddies mean that your MP is depleted rather rapidly.

I've found that it's very limiting to play characters with one powerful offensive tool though, A conjuration blasty type should (in my book) have a fairly powerful melee attack, and some decent stealth by the first time you touch the abyss, a powerful melee-er should have a good source of ranged (and preferably area effect) damage by the time you are level 20ish.

The Abyss wants good avoidance (speed and/or stealth), decent defenses, the ability to quickly and repeatedly dispose of popcorn without rest, and the ability to regain hit points without rest. It doesn't particularly need overwhelming firepower or godlike defenses, although those things never hurt.

A character built with high degrees of what the Abyss needs can survive it and escape pretty consistently with very good play as low as level 11, and can get a rune (from Abyss:3) probably in the high teens somewhere. Glass cannons, builds which expect to be able to blow all your MP or get low on HP and rest it off, particularly those with little to no avoidance, will have a VERY tough time in the Abyss.

That being said, it sounds like you got a pretty rough start, overloaded is no way to be, and it'll kill you in most places, in the Abyss it's just super-nasty. You need to drop a ton of stuff and get away *quick* if that happens, I find if I'm overloaded in that situation, it's probably because I was carrying too much food (Or am playing a DE or Sp or something).

None of rMsl, Swiftness, Phase shift, nor cBlink is *especially* helpful in the Abyss, they're all somewhat useful, but not get out of jail free cards, for sure. rMsl doesn't do a lot in the abyss, Phase Shift is expensive and short lived, not very much help, since you can't quickly and easily recover MP, Swiftness is a net 0 to speed, and since there's nowhere to easily and obviously escape *to* is only occasionally helpful in certain tactical situations, and cBlink is nerfed in the Abyss, *and* is expensive.

What the Abyss is really good at providing is lots and lots of cover, and it randomly teleports you often enough. Using those facts improve your ability to survive a lot. Standing in one place blasting stuff will just get you mobbed and killed super quick.

[Robotron]

Just wondering if it's possible to encounter Orbs of Fire in Abyss in latest trunk?

[diviton]

New Abyss is undoubtedly more difficult. Its definitely survivable at XL19 but its also very possible to die.

Abyss is also the area (along with Hell... and Pan to an extent) where even really good tactics can fail you because of the randomness.

[Wahaha]

The new abyss isn't really harder.I strongly disagree with this. Since 0.9:

I don't remember what version number it was, what I was thinking of is the version that added wretched stars, etc, because that's what is usually called "new abyss". I think that there wasn't a significant change in difficulty with those changes. But if you compare 0.9 and 0.14 you're probably right. To be honest I'm still pretending that 0.14 abyss never happened and that it will be reverted back to 0.13. I think that 0.13 is the best abyss version so far. I agree that monsters appearing on top of you is stupid, and I'm pretending raiju don't exist because they're 0.14.

Just wondering if it's possible to encounter Orbs of Fire in Abyss in latest trunk?

No.

[Hopeless]

Just my $0.025:

I ended up in the Abyss in one run last night as a 3rd level fighter (couldn't get away from Terence on D2 fast enough and he hit me with a banishment weapon. I ended up killing an Orange demon before running into those smity types. Instadeath with no chance to escape. Perhaps it is easier if you don't get sent there earlier than level 4. :p That said I think it was interesting. Was curious about the content and despite dying a cheesy death I was intrigued to try it again sometime.

[Tedronai]

Just wondering if it's possible to encounter Orbs of Fire in Abyss in latest trunk?

No.

It was definitely possible to encounter orbs of fire in some versions of 0.14a. I don't know if the possibility has been removed, though.

[daggaz]

Don't go below Abyss:1 if you're not looking for the rune.

You have a significantly higher chance of finding an exit at lower levels, all you have to do is not die. I think the payoff versus increased monster load is well worth taking a step down to abyss 2. Note also that finding the rune (ive seen it on the ground out in the open, not in vaults contrary to the wikis revered knowledge) and snagging it will greatly increase the chance of finding an exit. Apportation is a nice thing in this case.

[dck]

Zotizens and slime spawns in the abyss was a bug and it was fixed some time ago.

[duvessa]

Zotizens and slime spawns in the abyss was a bug and it was fixed some time ago.

It was introduced 100% deliberately.

[wheals]

It's also worth noting that ALL non-abyss denizens spawning in the abyss would now be a bug. I can't think of any differences between 0.13 abyss and trunk abyss besides raiju and worldbinders now (though the former are pretty dangerous).

[Sar]

My DsBe today got banished into Abyss at about XL18 or so. Now, it was a fairly strong character - and I still had some trouble with raiju. They're fast (or at least it seems so), they attack you with an element you likely can't resist, they travel in packs, and if you try to run away they can both attack your from range and change their position to be closer to you! If I encountered them during a more early banishment, I would likely be dead. So, yeah, I don't know if I'm just bad or maybe they require a nerf to their rarity, depth, or stats.

[dpeg]

If raiju turn out to be too crippling, they'll likely get demoted to deeper Abyss levels. I will bring this up when release is discussed. (And thanks for the feedback everyone!)

[Amnesiac]

My 15lv Vp survived raiju with 14/24/14(or less, since it's what he had after returning and killing all elves). If you teleport asap, it should be fine, it seems. I think I didn't even use teleportation as soon as I saw them, even though I should have. I think they are not worse than other stuff you would want to teleport away from. But they are pretty scary with all those lightning effects.

[Mattchew]

I thought vault sentinels on Abyss:1 were excessively cruel, as getting marked in Abyss is likely a death sentence. Sounds like those are gone now.

Raiju are pretty bad and I would agree with moving them deeper or at least making them less common.

After my one trip to A4 I'll probably never go below A3 again. I imagine the devs have stats on this, but if no one ever goes to A4/A5, those levels might as well be removed.

[Lasty]

During the DrCk challenge I got sent to the new abyss twice. I managed to escape the first time, despite a very close call with a tentacled starspawn, and it was very exciting. The second time I got sent to the abyss, it was packed full of balrugs, sun demons, executioners, reapers, and liches. As you might imagine, I died that time, given that almost all of those monsters are faster than players and are extremely dangerous for a low-level character. I'm not sure if it's still true that the abyss pulls in monsters from random branches, but if it is, then it might make sense to switch to Abyss:2 if you run into an Abyss:1 like this, just to re-randomize which monsters are being pulled.

I've never ever run into a raiju and cared even a little, whether rElec or not. Maybe I've just been lucky. The aforementioned character did have rElec, and I very rarely end up in the Abyss at low levels (thanks, Xom).

[tompliss]

So I am the only one loving Raijus ?
They feel like pokemons, and not in a bad way !

[damiac]

In my (fairly limited) experience with the "new" abyss, the main problem is that it's so incredibly random. While I understand that's partly the idea, I believe the randomness swings a little too hard. It goes from easy treasure and instant exit to instadeath from one trip to the next.

I've gotten banished, and had to fight nothing but abominations and lair branch creatures until I found an exit. I've also gotten banished, and been swarmed with nothing but smiters, mutators, and executioners.

I feel abyss 1 should be easier, but higher spellpower banishments should send you deeper into the abyss than weak ones. So an XL4 character getting banished by a weak monster should probably have an easier time than an XL27 character banished by a draconian demonologist (Or whatever end gamish banishing creature).

[dpeg]

My last game (the MfFi from WalkerBoh's tournament) ended in the Abyss. In fact, I escape once and it was an interesting ride, and died the second time (I skipped the Lugonu altar, though). Abyss balance is certainly not perfect (it never was) but I find lots of the complaints to overly dramatic. The Abyss is not a playground, at least not for characters

The Abyss was always a lot more random than the rest of the dungeon, and I would like those who say that the current Abyss is much worse than previous ones (which versions?) to specify why. I have been dying in Abysses since 4b26 and it always involved a lot of headlong running and unfair encounters.

[damiac]

I only ended up in the old abyss once, so I can't speak much to the difference between old and new. All I know for sure is "run diagonally until you escape or die" is a crappy game, and that's what the abyss seems to be, regardless of the version one is playing.

Now, maybe intentional abyss visits are more interesting, but I hate it so much I never go there if I can help it.

[Sandman25]

This is expected behavior IMHO. Abyss influences my desire to enter Elven Halls and used gear in Vaults/Depths where banishers are common.

[Siegurt]

So here's why I think the current abyss is (slightly) more dangerous than the old one: It's harder to run away. It used to be that yes, you could get cornered into a nasty fight that would just kill you, but most of the time you could keep running away and escape. The new abyss has several creatures which it's actively bad to run away from (starcurssed masses) or whom you can't run away (raiju, tentacled starspawn) and several things that make it harder for you the instant you come into LOS, whether you fight them or not.

All of these things increase the *odds* that you'll end up in a fight you can't win. That being said, you can still run away from most stuff, and as long as you don't encounter an overabundance of things you shouldn't/can't run from in a situation where something genuinely deadly will come join the party, and you're sufficiently high level, you should be fine.

I do like the idea of there being early abyss levels being easier than current Abyss:1, that you could be banished to by low level banishers (like "Abyss Light") and of different "power levels" of banishment sending you deeper levels of the Abyss, not sure it's worth the work involved, but it sounds like a neat idea. Another possible thing I thought of, was that if you're banished to the abyss, the odds of finding the exit are proportional to the banishment power (So with a lower level of banishment you'd be more likely to find an exit quickly) Just some idle musings, really. (I'd also like it if sometimes when I banished things with low invocations using Logonu's power they'd find the way back and re-appear from where I banished them >:) but that's just wicked.

[damiac]

Well, it's influenced my behavior as well, because I haven't been banished in a really long time. But you can see examples on this board where people get banished out of autoexplore, so it's not like you can' completely avoid the possibility of getting abyssed.

I just hate the way that the abyss now seems mainly to be a dice roll of whether I die or not. But I have to wander for like 2000 turns before I find out the outcome of that dice roll.

[dpeg]

damiac: Your tone is not helping your cause at all.

The idea of banishment is that it's an abrupt change, forcing you to deal with a completely different threat. Shafting deluxe, if you want.
I also have no clue why people seem to think that --unlike in the dungeon-- mortality is flatly distributed in the Abyss. Trust me, good players get out more often than bad players.

[damiac]

No, I understand that it's not truly just a dice roll Dpeg. But I'm not sure what you mean about my tone, I am really just trying to express my frustration with the current abyss. At best, I wander around, killing what I have to, and eventually escape the ever changing plane of randomness. At worst, I wander around, killing what I have to, and eventually die in the ever changing plane of randomness.

Yes, player skill comes into it, knowing when to use Teleport, what to try to fight, and what to try to run from, and probably more importantly, how well your character was built before you ended up in the abyss to begin with. But player skill seems to me to be much less of a factor in the abyss than it is elsewhere. Most of the player skill comes into not getting abyssed in the first place.

Or are you telling me my tone about the abyss is what's getting me killed there? Is monster damage in the abyss based on the amount of hyperbole I use in my forum posts? Because if that's the case, I understand why it seems so deadly to me

[crate]

I would like those who say that the current Abyss is much worse than previous ones (which versions?) to specify why

Abyss shifting tiles means that there is less reason to bother fighting things in a good position, since there is a chance that it will just randomly not be a good position and this is completely beyond your control. This is of course less bad now than it was a few versions ago but I would honestly like to remove abyss shifting entirely.

Abyss also still has maprot and really that should go away (of course this isn't a reason for abyss being worse, since old abyss also had maprot).

My local trunk build is out of date by a bit (0.14-a0-2126-g2b13bce) so this might've been addressed already, but I'm seeing dungeon monsters in abyss (I found a convoker band, a centaur pack, and an agate snail in a quick test offline). If branches actually matter (i.e. if you want branches to not feel like "just more dungeon") then most branch monsters should really remain in that branch (this is a very large problem with depths right now too, by the way).

I don't know if I'd say abyss is better or worse than old abyss, my biggest complaint with it is I do not like the entire idea of abyss (and that was true of old abyss as well of course).