What's your favorite branch and why?

[Amnesiac]

Maybe forcing some order, like placing really tough guards or needing some prerequisites completed will do the trick? I like non-linear games, but I'm not sure it works for crawl since you can always gradually increase the danger level and there are rarely real hurdles that you MUST overcome which reduces excitement greatly.

[Hirsch I]

put a rune lock on lair, and put the key on the bottom of the mines.

[The Mighty Nez]

I think my favorite branch (keep in mind I haven't been past the vestibule as far as hell goes, and I lasted about 30 seconds in pandemonium) would have to be the shoals! I usually play heavy melee characters, and I love how the odds are stacked against me there. You've got the ranged merfolk peppering me with projectiles while I try my best to stay behind cover and wait for the tide to go down. Sometimes they catch me out in the open, and swiftly chase me down while I splash around foolishly in the water. I love the inclusion of harpies a la Jason and the Argonauts as well. I've lost many a promising character in the shoals, but each trip there is a memorable adventure for me.

[AzuredreamsXT]

Amnesiac: It's not the message I dislike (if your Orc was trivial, you've got all right to say this) but the tone. There was really no constructive way for me to react to this. Your explanation afterwards is very sensible. I believe that in the end, Crawl is too open for it's own good: it's a given players will reduce risks at any costs, and that it does lead to trivialised branches indicates an overabundance of content, or at least xp.

Just wanted to pipe in and say thanks, first of all, to you and all the devs for your hard work (you ARE a dev, right? :p)

Secondly, I wanted to mention that while pleasing your hardcore fans like Amnesiac is probably more important than aiming at pleasing more casual players like me, we casuals are out there and I feel that things like Temple being a nice milestone, Crawl having a fair amount of openness to it and having areas of the game where you can relax a bit more (like orc 1 - 3) are all great things about the game. Just wanted to let you know (in case you didn't) that there are people out there who like those elements!

[Hirsch I]

@The Mighty Nez
a masochist, just like me!! high five!

[Amnesiac]

I like shoals, but tides are a huge pain. Would be better if there would be some passable shallow water between islands, don't you think?

[Hirsch I]

between harpies, tides and not quite interesting monsters, I think shoals is... not the best branch.

[SublimeSnake]

My favorite part of shoals: getting knocked off a staircase by an aquamancer as I'm desperately trying to escape Shoals 5.

[Amnesiac]

Also, nymphs can submerge stairs :3

[Arkhan]

I like Vault entirely on flavor alone. I've always preferred organized, almost castle-type settings to jungles and bogs and stuff. Vault doesn't just look all chrome and shiny, it really feels like it was built to be a fortress with guard houses everywhere protecting a treasure in a safe at the bottom and the new branch specific vault guards that do special things like lock away stairs feel really thematic and cool. A lot of other branches to me feel like just "here's a new type of bad guy" whose theme matches the level, but Vault just has a cohesive and organized sense. I get a sense of progression in the ambush at the end as well, like I'm making an impact on the dungeon itself as I go and the guards are actually reacting to my presence in a way that's altering the layouts of floors and not just "The thing shouts! *initiate combat*"

[dpeg]

I believe that in the end, Crawl is too open for it's own good: it's a given players will reduce risks at any costs, and that it does lead to trivialised branches indicates an overabundance of content, or at least xp.

Just wanted to pipe in and say thanks, first of all, to you and all the devs for your hard work (you ARE a dev, right? :p)

The color kind of gives it away That said, I'm not a very active developer (though I still try to be part: you can thank/hate me for the rune lock, for example) and I've never been a coder.

Secondly, I wanted to mention that while pleasing your hardcore fans like Amnesiac is probably more important than aiming at pleasing more casual players like me, we casuals are out there and I feel that things like Temple being a nice milestone, Crawl having a fair amount of openness to it and having areas of the game where you can relax a bit more (like orc 1 - 3) are all great things about the game. Just wanted to let you know (in case you didn't) that there are people out there who like those elements!

I replied because I absolutely disagree with the first part: in my opinion no player group is more important than any other! The survey we've conducted has shown clearly how many players stick with Crawl despite never winning, and some of them never even get a rune. Dev time spent making the game more interesting for them is time spent absolutely worthwhile. I'd say these players are not even asking for a simpler game (otherwise they'd long moved on), so they seem to accept or even cherish the fact that Crawl is hard. On the other hand, they will surely like additional new content (new species/backgrounds/gods/early portal vaults), and they will also be happy about interface care, as will everyone else.

As I see it, there is a clash between expectations of certain player groups, in that really good players (who obviously have spent lots of time with the game) may ask for simplifications or straightenings that are peculiar: what's fun or flavourful to you and me may become boring or tedious if you do it very often. I don't have a general reply to this, but I am mostly inclined to stick with the non-hardcore crowd. And don't worry about the Temple: I've not seen a single developer to even question the temple as a dedicated level, and the complaints annoyed me enough to make it an entry on our Won't Do! list.

[Amnesiac]

complaints annoyed me enough to make it an entry on our Won't Do! list.

I'm sorry if I'm wrong, and I'm sorry to bring this back(I'll try to not do this anymore in the future, but since it's a thing that I'm bothered by...), but I feel like you did that because of stubbornness on a whim like "just because", because I don't see any difference really between spreading altars and concentrating them if you find them all before the same level you find all altars, including those you were not able to find in the temple. The only thing it would remove is the temptation to do a temple dive and may tempt players into trying new gods instead of sticking to one that can be found in the temple most of the time.

[Sar]

Did you just completely ignore the part about new players and surveys and whatnot and only cherry picked the "complaints annoyed me enough" part?

[Amnesiac]

I did not, but questions like "do you find temple a milestone" (or just mentioning the temple) are leading questions. In reality, if temples did not exist in the first place, no one would care and maybe even enjoy finding altars even more. (In fact, the correct question should be about finding an altar not the temple, since that's what changes the game).
ps: this is partly you fault that I'm writing all this, because you provoked me by bringing that up

[Kismet]

wrighting

writing

[duvessa]

Removing Temple had extensive discussion in ##crawl-dev, starting long before you started that Tavern thread. Not everything is about you.

[Amnesiac]

that's not my point(also the was a thread 10 days before me even having this idea, I just missed it, I mean that I'm not alone in this, so I don't think that dpeg did this because of me). Ok, I'm stopping(I'll try).

[dpeg]

For the record: I did it because it came up twice in a short period, which makes it a frequently asked question in my book and thus deserves a written answer. Also, it really saves time to link to the Won't Do list over giving the same arguments time and again.

[Viashino_wizard]

complaints annoyed me enough to make it an entry on our Won't Do! list.

The only thing it would remove is the temptation to do a temple dive and may tempt players into trying new gods instead of sticking to one that can be found in the temple most of the time.

The only gods that can't be found in the temple regularly are Beogh, Jiyva and Lugonu, and Lucy can show up there in certain layouts.

[diviton]

I like Vault entirely on flavor alone. I've always preferred organized, almost castle-type settings to jungles and bogs and stuff. Vault doesn't just look all chrome and shiny, it really feels like it was built to be a fortress with guard houses everywhere protecting a treasure in a safe at the bottom and the new branch specific vault guards that do special things like lock away stairs feel really thematic and cool. A lot of other branches to me feel like just "here's a new type of bad guy" whose theme matches the level, but Vault just has a cohesive and organized sense. I get a sense of progression in the ambush at the end as well, like I'm making an impact on the dungeon itself as I go and the guards are actually reacting to my presence in a way that's altering the layouts of floors and not just "The thing shouts! *initiate combat*"

I very much agree with this. Vaults wasn't always like this though. I think it was 12 (maybe 13?) that changed it and it was a great change. The layout is consistently cool for the Vaults floors and V:5 is always fun.

[tompliss]

In reality, if temples did not exist in the first place, no one would care and maybe even enjoy finding altars even more.

I like how you know things.

I've played crawl for about 3 years, and had my first win less than a year ago (and first rune not more than a month before that). Temple always was a milestone for me, making me think I was doing a good game with my character, because 90% of them didn't make it there.

(Also, as dpeg said, the difficulty of the game, and the variety really was what kept me playing the game)

[hermbot]

Anyway... I like shoals the most, at least thematically. The concept of an underground sea has always been intriguing to me. I also like flying around the islands as a gargoyle.

[mopl]

Favorites : some optionnal places, like Labyrinth, Sewer, Bailey, Ossuary

I also likes : Elven Halls, Dungeon, Tomb

I dislike : Hell (but this could change as I tried it with Zin for the first time and it's quite... different)

I hate : Pan and Abyss, so boring, I really go extended only to get higher scores...

[vengefulcarrot]

My favourite branch is zot, because I actually don't feel dead inside and somewhat liberated when I get there and I am about to win. Everything else is a grindfest.

But I guess you can really only appreciate extreme pleasure by overcoming extreme pain.