Stacking EV with enemy inaccuracy?

[Xion350]

Basically I'm wondering how well stacking absurdly high evasion with enemy inaccuracy would be, specifically from the new god in Trunk. It certainly feels more survivable but I'm curious about the numbers behind it.

[Greyr]

EV tanking is a serious gamble. Even with say, 100 EV there will still be a hardcoded 5% chance that whatever *thing* will hit you. However, I don't know how this interacts with the inaccuracy penalties monsters receive from umbra. It's probably not gonna make you all that more durable, but that's just a guess. I would probably use the inacc penalties to my advantage with a higher AC rather than EV. All that said, I'm probably completely wrong.

[dck]

The inaccuracy umbra gives to monsters is pretty good and you can in most situations pretend having around say, 4-6 more EV when you have it.
EV isn't a gamble at all, since none of the armours that allow your EV to be good do anything to keep your AC low and you have have good AC and great EV without extraordinary findings.
Also all undead have umbravision, so they get no penalty, although I think it was removed for demons a while ago.

[Greyr]

EV isn't a gamble at all, since none of the armours that allow your EV to be good do anything to keep your AC low and you have have good AC and great EV without extraordinary findings.

I'm not really sure what you mean here.

I was saying EV was a gamble under the assumption that dodging was your best bet and a good AC just wasn't in the cards yet. IE you're a spriggan who hasn't encountered dragon armour.

[Amnesiac]

It's always good to have some AC anyway. And it's not that hard to get. You just need to enchant a dragon armour, which you have enough str for. As for the roll, I think it sould be simple: ev+1+d1d4 from umbra against the enemy's to hit roll. And probably after ev30 umbra gives more than a bit of EV, as there is the stepdown. And it gives a nice edge at the beginning, since any agile character should have 15-20 early in the game and with umbra it should be very good from early on.

[duvessa]

EV tanking is a serious gamble. Even with say, 100 EV there will still be a hardcoded 5% chance that whatever *thing* will hit you.

That chance is closest to 2%, not 5%. (Also, even a rat will hit you more than 2% of the time with only 100 EV.)

[Greyr]

EV tanking is a serious gamble. Even with say, 100 EV there will still be a hardcoded 5% chance that whatever *thing* will hit you.

That chance is closest to 2%, not 5%. (Also, even a rat will hit you more than 2% of the time with only 100 EV.)

I coulda swore I read somewhere it was 5%. 100 was supposed to be a theoretical nonsense number, but that is good to know

[Wahaha]

I've seen the 5% thing in the bots EV page. Not sure if this is what the real game code has.
http://pastebin.com/f6eec73ed

[duvessa]

Given that said constant doesn't even seem to exist anymore I'm gonna say no. My 2% figure simply came from using fsim.

[and into]

EV tanking is a serious gamble. Even with say, 100 EV there will still be a hardcoded 5% chance that whatever *thing* will hit you. However, I don't know how this interacts with the inaccuracy penalties monsters receive from umbra. It's probably not gonna make you all that more durable, but that's just a guess. I would probably use the inacc penalties to my advantage with a higher AC rather than EV. All that said, I'm probably completely wrong.

Putting aside the question of exact percentages for a moment, the other thing (which supports your ultimate point) is that with 100 EV, you will dodge fireball 0 out of 100 times. Same with airstrike, the LRD blast radius, shatter, and several other attacks that ignore EV, but which do check AC. And then paralyze and certain other situations can drastically lower your EV (and paralyze can't be avoided through EV). And then there are those nasty attacks that ignore both EV and AC. So those are all things to consider. Maybe you were wrong about the exact numbers, but I don't think your overall analysis is incorrect. So you are not completely wrong. No matter how high your EV, you still should strive for good AC, and you still want good max HP. This is due to the nature of Crawl (permadeath), the nature of EV, and also the existence of various attacks that will bypass certain kinds of defenses.

[Implojin]

Also all undead have umbravision, so they get no penalty,

If this is really a thing it should be an unthing because I have trouble imagining a more opaque mechanic.

[dck]

Well umbra is a mechanic that predates Dith and the only source of it that used to exist were servitors so I guess it mostly existed not to have them screw with their friends in the few places they spawn at.

[omegonthesane]

Couldn't that be done a less extreme way? In particular, would there be any flavour damage to Yredelemnul simply granting umbra-vision to all his minions, i.e. all friendlies to a PC follower?

Alternately, let the profane servitors screw with their minions - Team Monster only has to be lucky once.