Trying to go it Unarmed

[XuaXua]

I don't want to play a Troll, and I feel like playing as a Gargoyle is cheating.

I'm playing as a DemonSpawn Monk, and I'm picking Dith (which is kinda like cheating), which means I really want to switch to dagger all the time.

The one game I got the furthest, I got an Electric Demon Trident off of a Lair 8 red devil and switched to that for the rest of the game (it was +3/+4; I got it to +9,+8), abandoning unarmed; felt like a traitor. Got trashed in Vaults:5.

I've been using light armour (ringmail at worst), and no shields. Is this the way to go? Should I abandon unarmed if I don't get claws?

[some12fat2move]

Unarmed is good, so good that you don't need claws and definitely don't need to check weapons (doing so tempts you to switch away when you really don't need to). And if you're looking for a good non-Troll species for this, draconian is pretty great.

[and into]

Unarmed Combat is good even without claws, though if you happen to get them even better, obviously. Ds Transmuter would be better than monk, unless you really want to go monk and not cast spells at all in the early game.

I've been using light armour (ringmail at worst), and no shields. Is this the way to go?

Yeah that sounds good.

[mopl]

... definitely don't need to check weapons (doing so tempts you to switch away when you really don't need to)...

If you plan to go Unarmed, NEVER, ever check weapons.
Because it's clearly this character who'll find all the best artifacts you other ones are looking for and never find even in a Zig-15-runes !

[Grandiloquent Gentleman]

Might I recommend Tengu. Or is that too much like gargoyle? Yeah they're a little squishy (but so are OpTm) but you can get some mad EV.

[Viashino_wizard]

What version are you playing? Gargoyles lost their bite/talons in trunk, along with slow metabolism.

[XuaXua]

Trunk; last I played gargoyles was by the last full release.

[XuaXua]

How should I build skills? I focus on Unarmed, and leave fighting on, and at 10 unarmed, I also turn dodging and stealth on. As a DS of a non-invo diety (still don't get that with Dith), if I get Spirit Shield mutation, should I train Spellcasting (-1) or Evo(+1)?

[Magipi]

How should I build skills? I focus on Unarmed, and leave fighting on, and at 10 unarmed, I also turn dodging and stealth on.

You mean that you train Fighting from XL 1?

[and into]

How should I build skills? I focus on Unarmed, and leave fighting on, and at 10 unarmed, I also turn dodging and stealth on. As a DS of a non-invo diety (still don't get that with Dith), if I get Spirit Shield mutation, should I train Spellcasting (-1) or Evo(+1)?

Train spell casting if there are spells you want to start learning to cast atm, train evocations if there are evocables you want to use better. If neither, I would hold off on training those skills even with magic shield.

[HenryFlower]

In my recent DsMo of Makhleb builds, I've been roughly doing (from a goal perspective)

UC to 8-9; UC to 15, EV to 20+, Fighting 10is, Invo 12is

Then, dependent on mutations and books, go back and forth between UC/fighting/dodging and spell skills.

It's a fun build because mutations and found objects influence the game to a great extent.

I pretend weapons don't exist.

[XuaXua]

How should I build skills? I focus on Unarmed, and leave fighting on, and at 10 unarmed, I also turn dodging and stealth on.

You mean that you train Fighting from XL 1?

3 or so, but I don't turn it off and I leave it at unemphasized, and I leave Unarmed emphasized in the skill menu.

[Magipi]

How should I build skills? I focus on Unarmed, and leave fighting on, and at 10 unarmed, I also turn dodging and stealth on.

You mean that you train Fighting from XL 1?

3 or so, but I don't turn it off and I leave it at unemphasized, and I leave Unarmed emphasized in the skill menu.

In the early game, the benefits of fighting are so small that they are practically nonexistent. That XP would do a much better job in UC or doging or anything else.

[WalkerBoh]

Here's a morgue file for a 15-runer SEIE^TSO. I went UC right from the start, and also TSO right from the start. UC is kind of weak early on (I was able to bolster it with ice magic), but becomes very good faster than most weapons.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/WalkerBoh/morgue-WalkerBoh-20130207-061620.txt

It looks like I trained UC to about 11, then turned on fighting with UC until UC was 15 and fighting was 5ish. Then I turned on dodging to 8, fighting to 10, worked on invoc a bit… Then UC up to 20ish, grabbed a shield, more dodging, and that took me through Lair:8.

Final Stats (wow there was a lot of exp back then):

  Code:

 O Level 27 Fighting
 * Level 21.7 Armour
 O Level 27 Dodging
 - Level 2.1 Stealth
 - Level 5.3 Shields
 - Level 5.1 Traps
 O Level 27 Unarmed Combat
 - Level 9.5 Spellcasting
   Level 0.7 Conjurations
 - Level 13.6 Charms
 - Level 9.1 Translocations
 - Level 8.7 Transmutations
 + Level 18.5 Ice Magic
 - Level 13.0 Air Magic
 O Level 27 Invocations

You can see I went with MDA which is a great choice for UC fighters. I wouldn't go heavier than ring mail.

[XuaXua]

I tried another DsMo and died in Lair to black mamba poison. Teleported away from a 7-headed hydra that was at the bottom of some stairs and would have followed me right into the middle of a snake pit branch entrance.

Lair 5 and had found my third curing potion. :/

[Magipi]

I tried another DsMo and died in Lair to black mamba poison. Teleported away from a 7-headed hydra that was at the bottom of some stairs and would have followed me right into the middle of a snake pit branch entrance.

Lair 5 and had found my third curing potion. :/

You did not have Ice form online (against the mamba, not the hydra), or it poisoned you anyway?

[XuaXua]

Monk. No spells. The problem with the DsMo going Unarmed is that there is little defense. Taking down a hydra or a Hill Giant is risky business.

Going forward, it will be DsTr. I just would have preferred DsMo to be more viable. Picked Dith.

[dck]

Well Ds have good dex, get AC naturally from scales and since most UC characters don't get very heavy armors can have very good EV while still punching everything to death. DsMo is a pretty decent combo.

[XuaXua]

My current issues is when to train Transmutations.

[and into]

My current issues is when to train Transmutations.

Here's how I would handle skill training on a Ds transmuter:

+ Start off training only unarmed combat. Use beastly appendage on anything that isn't a lone rat or gecko [meant "newt"].
+ At level two continue training only unarmed combat, but go ahead and learn sticks to snakes.
+ At level three memorize spider form, this will use up the last of your available spell slots. At this point turn off Unarmed Combat, turn on transmutations and poison.
+ Once spider form gets to around 15 to 20% failure, turn off transmutations and poison, and turn back on unarmed combat. Use spider form when it makes sense, for everything else use beastly appendage if you can (i.e., your armor slots aren't all filled up), unless it is a lone rat or gecko [meant "newt"].
+ Once unarmed combat is around 11, switch to getting some dodging (until EV is at least in high teens)

After that you can keep going with UC, or develop your other spells, or continue with a bit more dodging first.

Also I'd put a point into dexterity every three levels.

EDIT: Also don't forget you have sticks to snakes, it is a great spell.

[XuaXua]

Yeah, I've been messing with Transmuters for a while, I just can't seem to get one going right.
Ice form for Hydrae and poison resistance and deep water traversal.
Spider form for escaping, poisoning and wall traversal
Blade Hands better or worse than Claws 3?

Of these spells, I think their descriptions should state outright which slots get removed due to transformation.

No shields or shields?

[siprus]

I've had some experiance with transmuters. I'd say both of these tactics work. UC ->6 Then train poisons to 2 (or 3) and transmutation to 4-6 So you can cast spider form with decent chance.

After that Train unarmed and maybe dodging, until you feel ready to learn a new spell, then just put everything to transmuatations. (Generally when i train transmutation i ONLY train transmutations because small increases in transmutation skill don't increase your effectiveness once you can relatively reliably get your spells off)

Once UC is around 12 I give up my policy of focused training and just split my xp, Focus on UC and Dodging. (+ fighting until it's 10) Unfocused on transmutation, armor (if i wear ring mail) fighting after 10. Evocations and Invocations are something i might focus train to ten, If i feel like i'm getting any use out of them.

[dck]

Ice form is a great spell and kill hydras well but depending on your defenses and the number of heads the hydra has (and how shallow it is obviously) you may be rolling pretty dangerous dice against it and if you say miss the first two attacks or maybe just fail to slow it you might be in a world of trouble. Just because you have very good anti-hydra melee it doesn't mean you shouldn't still avoid them or zap them with wands before entering melee.
I'd say if you have claws 3 and are a Tr you wand nothing to do with bh and if you have them and aren't a troll you might still want nothing to do with it either, but in terms of strict damage dealing bh is better that claws.

Regarding and into's training, it sounds pretty good, other than I would go for some dodging once I've gotten spider form into shape, myself, getting some cheap EV for spiderform and then going back to UC (and then some fighting once UC starts hitting around level 10).
Well and I would be careful with geckos since they're murderous demons, too.

[Lasty]

My experience w/ unarmed characters is that broadly speaking, you don't want to train anything but UC until you have 11 UC skill, because that's about where UC becomes as good as a medium-quality weapon. If I'm a TM, I adjust that only enough to get spider form to about 35% fail. Generally speaking, that's about what it's at with your base stats, and it's also enough that you can get it on in about 2 casts. During this phase of the game, that's more than good enough.

Once you have 11 UC, things branch a little more. If you're a TM, you can train Transmutations to get Spider and Ice form more reliable and longer-lasting, because they each come with additional defenses. After that, you can get some Dodging and then get UC to about 16, and then work on your defenses/spells some more.

If you're a non-TM unarmed character, this is when I would get Dodging up to 10 or so -- you should have at least 17 EV if you want to survive being in melee range of anything. After that, you need to get your UC to 16+, and then work on defenses more: Dodging to 14+, Fighting to 8+, and then back to UC until it's about 20.

My experience is that w/o transmutation, 5.4 UC is about equal with a similar amount of training while holding a mace-level weapon (i.e. pretty bad). 10.8 is about as good as (or maybe a little worse than) wielding a flail-level weapon with a similar level of training. 16.2 is about as good as wielding a min delay unenchanted great sword. When you reach 21.6, UC starts approaching the level of end-game level weapons.

[Sandman25]

I try to get Spider Form reliable as soon as I am XL 3, the form increases base UC damage by 2 and together with poison ego it deals more damage per turn than slightly higher UC. Also I love having a reliable escape vs early Ogre.

[XuaXua]

For ranged, other than heavy wands, I usually end up throwing larger objects. Yes / no / maybe?

[Lasty]

Slings + sling bullets, crossbows, bows, javelins, or even tomahawks can be decent with no skill, and can help soften up dangerous enemies like hydrae. I try to pick up a sling and sling bullets on every character that doesn't already have a stronger ranged attack, and on some that do.

Bows and crossbows are relatively slow w/ no skill, so keep that in mind to avoid giving the dangerous enemy extra attacks on you as it approaches.

[Sandman25]

I also always pickup stones (preferably with sling) with most characters (all except conjurers/elemental mages), they are needed for early jellies.

[XuaXua]

So for ranged, with the TM, I just do snakes it seems. Bows pair well with that unless you cast while holding the bow (whoops).

[crate]

So for ranged, with the TM, I just do snakes it seems. Bows pair well with that unless you cast while holding the bow (whoops).

If you autoinscribe something with !D, you will be prompted if you take an action that might destroy it (like casting sticks to snakes)

[and into]

Well and I would be careful with geckos since they're murderous demons, too.

Oh crap I meant newts. Early geckos are bastards, yeah. (I guess I would be a terrible herpetologist.)

[and into]

I also always pickup stones (preferably with sling) with most characters (all except conjurers/elemental mages), they are needed for early jellies.

Stones are always good for drawing your enemies' attention one or two at a time without shouting or moving forward, and can soften guys up as they approach early on. However jellies now have average movement speed so unless you are centaur or spriggan (or maybe if you lucked into a really good sling) you probably won't kill them with stones alone before they will be able to close to melee. They fall pretty quickly to almost any damage-dealing or hex wand, fortunately, and it is not at all a waste to use some charges on a jelly.

[Sar]

They also have lower HP on average so stones with sling can do the trick, provided you have enough distance. Sling bullets are effective too, especially branded - you will lose them but they seem to do enough damage to overcome jellies' slurping. Of course if you have a wand, use it. Also I think if you hit a paralysed jelly with your weapon, you won't get corrosive effects, so para wand + melee works too.

[Lasty]

You can have your weapons corrode while fatally stabbing a sleeping jelly, so I imagine you can also have them corrode on a paralyzed jelly as well.

[Sar]

It seems like I was lucky then.

[morik]

In the early game, the benefits of fighting are so small that they are practically nonexistent. That XP would do a much better job in UC or doging or anything else.

The formula for fighting's effect on HP changed in trunk; there is now a non-XL dependent boost (as well as an XL-dependent one) which makes fighting give you pretty good bang for your buck early.

See http://crawl.chaosforge.org/HP#History (reproduced below):
Max HP = (Racial Mod.) * (Mutations Mod.) * (Forms Mod.)
* (8 + 11*XL/2 + Fighting*XL/14 + (1+Fighting*3)/2)

That last term will give you 2 extra HP with 1 level of fighting. 4 extra with 2.3 or so. 8 with 5 fighting.
And that is in addition to the HP from the 2nd term (Fighting * XL/14). So 5 at XL 6, say, would give you 10 or so extra HP (modified by your species HP apt). Not bad.

[pratamawirya]

How bad is it to wear a chain mail while punching with your fists? Since my DsMo found a very nice randart chain mail.

[Tedronai]

How bad is it to wear a chain mail while punching with your fists? Since my DsMo found a very nice randart chain mail.

I fail to see why you think it would be bad?! You'll have to balance out your AC/EV but this is not really related to UC.

[pratamawirya]

I mean would it cripple my UC or something. But if the UC delay from the chain mail isn't something I should worry about, then ... yay.

[Lasty]

Assuming that the formulas on learnDB are right and that the new formula still includes the same armour skill mitigation for AEVP, then the amount of delay added to the UC base delay by chain mail is min(10, 1d10 + 2dAEVP), where AEVP might look something like:

AEVP = 5 (15 str, no armour skill)
AEVP = 4.2 (18 str, no armour skill)
AEVP = 3.3 (15 str, 15 armour skill)
AEVP = 2.8 (18 str, 15 armour skill)

At 5 AEVP, the majority of your attacks would be slowed, and the slow would average around 1-3 AUT, but sometimes spiking as high as 10 AUT (every 250 attacks or so; smaller spikes more often). At 2.8 (usually rounded to 3, I believe), the majority of your attacks would not be slowed, but a significantly minority would be slowed 1 aut, and a fair number would be slowed 2 AUT. 1 in 90 attacks would be slowed 6 AUT, with smaller spikes more often.

[XuaXua]

Transmuter is getting me in trouble with DS when I get great DS mutations.

Which is better: Claws 3 or Blade Hands?

Vine Stalker Monk is an excellent unarmed combatant, but I think Vine Stalker is a bit broken - seems too powerful compared to things like Trolls. Maybe I'm just not casting spells, I guess.

[Azrael]

Transmuter is getting me in trouble with DS when I get great DS mutations.

Which is better: Claws 3 or Blade Hands?

Vine Stalker Monk is an excellent unarmed combatant, but I think Vine Stalker is a bit broken - seems too powerful compared to things like Trolls. Maybe I'm just not casting spells, I guess.

Trolls are actually one of the strongest races in the game. Spirit Shield protects Vine Stalkers well early on, but its protective ability falls off a bit late game. Trolls just get more and more HP.

[pratamawirya]

I feel like running a TrMo now, though he doesn't get hungry as quickly and a +11 chain mail suits him perfectly. (It's a DsMo with robust 3 and claws 3, lol.)