Trog and magic...

[mopl]

Quoted from another thread

The +5, +11 Demon Trident "Killer Klown's Foe" {Pain, rPois, rF+, rC+, SInv}

I'm even using polearms!

...but I'm a troglodyte.

The weapon is kind of great, and iirc 7 Necromancy is enough to get the pain brand active at each attack.
My question is : training Necromancy to 7 is not a big amount of time, what is the risk of it, because of Trog's penance ?

[zogre]

Trog penance is bad, when I abandoned him he killed me pretty quickly. I'm not sure how bad it is for merely memorization of a necromantic spell/learning necromancy, but the wiki says deprecates learning spells and devoting experience to spellcasting, I'm not sure I'd risk it. It's a pretty good polearm without the Pain brand anyway.

[1010011010]

Learning a spell will put you under penance. It can be mollified by killing a bunch of things.
Training a magic school will drain piety (10 piety per level) but killing and sacrifices should counteract it.

source- I used wiz-mode.

[njvack]

I wouldn't train necro under Trog for this whip. It's a good good weapon anyhow (and Trog will likely gift another baller polearm) -- but I'd take 70 piety (which is like 14 uses of Brothers in Arms or something) over a bit of pain damage.

You absolutely don't want Trog penance unless you know what you're doing; zerking rock trolls are no joke.

[duvessa]

There is no imaginable circumstance under which training a magic school under Trog is a good idea.

[Sphara]

Just one follow-up question.. If I have ? of brand weapon, book of war chants and a decent unbranded weapon, is it reasonable to get trogs penance for a while in order to get your claymore of freezing? Professional advice would be appreciated.

[duvessa]

I would just make it vorpal instead.

[XuaXua]

These days, Brand Weapon scroll is a crap shoot.

[Siegurt]

Acually unbranded weapons always get vorpal, temporary branded weapons are always permanantly branded with the temporary brand, it's only *already* branded weapons which get rebranded with something random.

[Hirsch I]

it can turn your draining eveningstar into a vamiric eveningstar, and you will be happy.

[duvessa]

Keep in mind that it only has a 5.5% chance to do that...

[Hirsch I]

really? there are different chances for each brand?

[Siegurt]

Yep:

  Code:

 new_brand = random_choose_weighted(
                                    30, SPWPN_FLAMING,
                                    30, SPWPN_FREEZING,
                                    20, SPWPN_VENOM,
                                    15, SPWPN_DRAINING,
                                    15, SPWPN_VORPAL,
                                    15, SPWPN_ELECTROCUTION,
                                    12, SPWPN_PROTECTION,
                                    8, SPWPN_VAMPIRICISM,
                                    3, SPWPN_CHAOS,
                                    0);


Roughly (for melee weapons): 20% flaming/freezing, 13.5% venom, 10% Draining, Vorpal, Electrocution, 8% Protection , 5.5% vampiric, 2% chaos, of course, it re-rolls if you get the same brand, so you can adjust your percent chance of getting a given brand upwards by whatever the odds are of re-rolling the brand you already have (So for example if you have draining, your odds of getting vampiric are 5.5% * 110% (draining is a 10% chance of being rolled) so it's actually a 6.05% chance in total.

[Hirsch I]

oh, it is not that good then.

[duvessa]

(So for example if you have draining, your odds of getting vampiric are 5.5% * 110% (draining is a 10% chance of being rolled) so it's actually a 6.05% chance in total.

Oops, I accounted for that in my 5.5% figure (the actual "plain" chance of vampiric is 5.4054%) but accidentally added 1% instead of 10%. The actual chance is 6.015%.

[XuaXua]

oh, it is not that good then.

It is better than what it was.

[cerebovssquire]

oh, it is not that good then.

It is better than what it was.

Flaming and freezing are better than the average outcome of that list for most characters, and you used to be able to guarantee these brands if you had the spells (usually you had the spells).
20, SPWPN_VENOM,
15, SPWPN_DRAINING,
15, SPWPN_VORPAL,
12, SPWPN_PROTECTION,
3, SPWPN_CHAOS
are all worse than flaming or freezing, only elec and vamp are really better a good amount of the time.

[crate]

and you used to be able to guarantee these brands if you had the spells (usually you had the spells).

and you still can!

The only change is brand weapon can now rebrand already-branded weapons.

[dck]

Well, and you can target it now which is nice.

[Hirsch I]

yeah, but is not the awesome blessing from the gods I thought it was.

[XuaXua]

oh, it is not that good then.

It is better than what it was.

are all worse than flaming or freezing, only elec and vamp are really better a good amount of the time.

THE SCROLL OF VORPALIZATION IS BETTER THAN IT WAS BEFORE IT WAS REVISED.

[battaile]

oh, it is not that good then.

It is better than what it was.

Flaming and freezing are better than the average outcome of that list for most characters, and you used to be able to guarantee these brands if you had the spells (usually you had the spells).
20, SPWPN_VENOM,
15, SPWPN_DRAINING,
15, SPWPN_VORPAL,
12, SPWPN_PROTECTION,
3, SPWPN_CHAOS
are all worse than flaming or freezing, only elec and vamp are really better a good amount of the time.

Do you even play this game anymore?

[zogre]

I was unsatisfied with my earlier answer, so I decided to test out what happens.
(note: I only play online so I don't have access to wizmode, and I'm too lazy to do a local install in order to wizmode test.)
(note to note: yes, making characters and levelling to test is probably more work than wizmode, but playing is something I enjoy and learning a new interface vis-a-vis wizmode is not high on my list of things to do)

At first, I rolled GrBe, ran through trying to find a pain weapon and then a necromatic spell book, but Xom was not with me and I never managed to find the book before I splatted after being abyssed by Edmund's flail

I decided to get smart about it, rolled a VpNe, and took Trog when I found his altar.

As a follower of Trog, when I memorized the spell (I chose Animate Dead, as it's a 1st level spell and if Trog cares about the kind of magic you memorize it would maybe have a lesser penalty? just relaying my decision making process) I was immediately put under penance (red star), Trog was angry with me and I was warned to be penitent. Of course, that wasn't going to happen, so I switched all xp-gain to Necromancy... By choosing to train Necromancy whilst under penance, I didn't actually get out of penance by getting kills, but rather seemed to accrue more hatred, and as I continued my apostasy Trog decided to punish me. I splatted shortly after discovering this, as killing Menakure gave me enough Necromancy experience that Trog decided I was an infidel worthy of his ire...

My advice - your pain weapon is fine without the boost Necromancy gives, and it's not worth angering Trog over.

I'm sure your game's over by now, how did it turnout?

[earLOBe]

I stuck with antimagic/freezing bardiches, since I had decent elemental resists and no shields skill, and then got an annoying paralysis death in the Depths when Frances opened a door with a sphinx behind her.