Should you do Elf:3 and Crypt:5?

[pickled_heretic]

I seem to recall elf 3 as one of those places where you could dig a 1 tile visible corridor and just shout spam everything to come die 1 at a time with a melee character.

[Volteccer_Jack]

one of those places where you could dig a 1 tile visible corridor and just shout spam everything to come die 1 at a time with a melee character.

That would be a very long list of places. Dig being broken is not really relevant here.

[skyspire]

Unless it was buffed recently in Trunk, Warding is not that helpful, because physical attacks from summons should be basically the least of your worries. Warding is better than nothing but it is not good, and even then the rN+ that warding gives is more likely to be helpful in Elf than the actual warding effect.

OK I should of said summons and rNeg. And summoned demons do have melee (they all don't torment/hellfire) so yes it is helpful.

If it is not recommended, why do you recommend it? Again, Clarity is better than an empty slot, but confusion is not really the main issue in Elf. I think one time I had to deal with an orange crystal statue vault on Elf 2, but that's not a usual thing. You just want high MR in Elf.

Good point. Yes high MR is much better than Clarity for Elf, which I also said.

rF, rC, and rElec can be helpful, but for rElec that's entirely because elves cast lightning bolt, not because of the tiny chance one spawns with a dagger of electricity. Frankly, it is in your best interest if one of the non-blademaster vault elves uses its turn to prod you with a weapon of electricity, even if it procs, because that's a waste of a turn compared to summoning a fiend or hitting you with a strong bolt attack or a crystal spear. In any case, though they certainly help, none of these resistances is as important as having good AC.

rNeg is more important than good AC for the simple fact it lessens torment damage, which bypasses AC completely. rF and rC and rElec also prevent 50% damage from harmful spells that bypass AC. With high EV the bolt spells are likely to miss you completely. If you have good EV, AC is less important in Elf, especially if you are a caster with Freezing Cloud or Poison Cloud, which I will detail later. High AC / low EV is the biggest danger of Elf imho, because it paints a big target on your chest for LCS and all the bolt spells... I would much rather have AC 12 EV 30 in elf 3 than AC 30, EV 12 Too many players make the mistake of making AC more important than it is.


skyspire wrote:
Freezing Cloud/Poison Cloud makes Elf 3 very easy.

I can't help but point out the irony in your saying that high AC will lull you into overconfidence right after you make this claim. Cloud spells are indeed a great way to kill elves, but that does *not* make Elf 3 very easy, because cloud spells don't make you immune to the punishment the high end elves can dish out. Freezing or Poisonous Cloud will take out your enemies really well, but a few lucky shots from the vault elves will lay you low regardless, so you must still be very careful. Claiming that any spell makes Elf 3 "very easy" is incorrect.

I state again, Cloud spells make Elf 3 "very easy" .. assuming that you have the cloud spells at strength especially with staff of cold or poison. Especially on Elf 3 maps with a corridor choke point. The technique is simple.. you haste and buff yourself before sneaking into the vault until you can see mobs in your extreme LOS. You cast the clouds at the edge of your LOS, retreat, casting clouds to fill the gap.. continue casting clouds through the long choke point. The elves will die without them being in your LOS long enough to be a threat. It's a joke really. No need to bring them out 1 at a time if they have to move through a dozen clouded tiles. They die en masse. You need speed to do this most safely though.. Potion of speed would work, or cast haste. After the first run, you go into vault and repeat again.. casting clouds on your edge of LOS when you see an elf. Doing this no more than 3 times will clear the vault. When you go in the last time there might be 1-3 stragglers. No need for stealth, no need for curare. No need for high AC. I much prefer a high EV melee fighter to a high AC one. No need for high GDR when they rarely hit you.

Elf 3 is arguably a bad idea no matter what

LMAO.. Elf is 100% worth it for those who are prepared and know what they are doing. The loot is worth it, on par with Vault 5 loot , in fact I like Elf 3 loot better than Vault 5 loot, from my experience. Seems I always find something uber that I need there. Many times it is recommended to do Elf 3 after Vault 5, in case you don't have good enough MR / equipment. I do find Vault 5 to be easier, usually (depending on the character build). Personally, I look forward to Elf 3 and will clear it early if I got good MR. A few days ago I cleared it before taking any runes. So its definitely doable early and I find it fun and rewarding.

and it is definitely a bad idea if you don't have good AC/EV. That being said, doing Elf with really high AC but lowish EV is probably less worse than doing it with really high EV and crap AC, because the latter means that nearly the full force of any spell or arrow is likely to hit if you fail a single EV roll. So what you said about overconfidence applies more to the reverse case, high EV with bad AC. Fortunately AC and EV are not mutually exclusive, and hopefully your dodgy character is wearing a mottled dragon armor or something along those lines, and is thus well protected beyond a single spin of the RNG (even if you stack the odds highly in your favor with phase shift and deflect missiles).

I strongly disagree. In my experience, High EV always trumps high AC, not only for Elf, but the entire game. Don't knock it until you try it. About the only time I like high AC higher than EV is maybe Lair and early branches. Otherwise, I love having my EV always higher than my AC, when I can. AC becomes even less important in the end game, when the game is about torment and hellfire (which ignores AC completely) The ideal is to not be hit at all, not even getting to a damage reduction stage.

Stealth is as helpful in Elf as it is everywhere else

I said stealth is not very helpful for the Elf 3 vault. I stand by that. You want to draw the elves out, not walk into the vault and surround yourself with them. To draw them out, they need to notice you. I know at least one player who likes to shout outside the vault to draw out the elves. It is the opposite strategy to stealth.

[Sar]

Thing that lessens hellfire damage: spending as little time in hellfire user's line of sight as possible.
Things that do not lessen hellfire damage: rF, everything else.

[Mankeli]

Unless it was buffed recently in Trunk, Warding is not that helpful, because physical attacks from summons should be basically the least of your worries. Warding is better than nothing but it is not good, and even then the rN+ that warding gives is more likely to be helpful in Elf than the actual warding effect.

OK I should of said summons and rNeg. And summoned demons do have melee (they all don't torment/hellfire) so yes it is helpful..

Warding effect is completely horrible and doesn't block anything if it hasn't changed recently (also blademasters can probably hit harder than demon melee excluding maybe reapers, hell sentinels and definitely ice fiends because of af_cold).

rF and rNeg is more important than good AC for the simple fact it lessens hellfire/torment damage. If you have good EV, AC is less important in Elf, especially if you are a caster with Freezing Cloud or Poison Cloud, which I will detail later. High AC / low EV is the biggest danger of Elf imho, because it paints a big target on your chest for LCS. I would much rather have AC 12 EV 30 in elf 3 than AC 30, EV 12

rF doesn't do shit against hellfire. If you face torment in Elf:3 who have probably screwed up already. And those defence values look really low for my average character in Elf no matter what you prefer.

I strongly disagree. In my experience, High EV always trumps high AC, not only for Elf, but the entire game. AC becomes even less important in the end game, when the game is about torment and hellfire (which ignores AC completely).

AC, point for point, is usually a bit better better than EV but it depends on your absolute amounts of EV and AC and what kind of a threat you are facing. High EV really doesn't "always trump high AC".

[skyspire]

yeah i revised my post about rF and Hellfire. My point is that the biggest threat in Elf 3 is from casters, and yes deep elf master archers and blademasters are threats. Their spells or ranged attack are less likely to hit you if you have higher EV, I prefer higher EV than 30 of course, was just giving that as an example. If my base EV was 30, I would cast Phase Shift for 38 EV, which is enough to avoid most of what Elf 3 can dish at you.. Yes, you should nuke demonologists before they can summon tormenting demons. If they do manage to summon one, just kill the demonologist quickly or retreat until the summon is gone.

I don't remember hellfire as being a serious threat in Elf 3, but maybe because I take out the casters before they become threats. Hellfire is just one of their spell slots on rotation, so it doesn't seem to come up often enough to be memorable to me.

I don't want this to be a EV vs AC debate because they both are important. My personal preference is for high EV. But I only have one 10 rune win (HE AE), and I've not done a 15 rune win yet. I'm only sharing insights which helped me. I used to think AC was king until I discovered the power of EV.. and also some SH from buckler. when i escaped with the orb, i was at AC 28 EV 34 SH 18 with Phase Shift my EV was 42. I had +3 pearl dragon armour (very few enchant armour scrolls lying around that game)

[Sar]

Blademasters and master archers are not casters.

Btw, I'm not sure you understand how Stealth skill works in Crawl if you think it's completely useless.

[skyspire]

omg Sar. I said it is not very helpful for the Elf 3 vault. I never said stealth is completely useless. What are you smoking?

When I play Spriggan Enchanter, stealth is awesome. I love stabbing and using invis and all that. I'm just saying stealth is not so useful (in my experience) for Elf 3 vault. If I tried going into vault invis (and I've tried that) .. what happens is one of the uber elves with sinvis would see me and shout. You don't want to be surrounded by wakened uber elves. Stealth can get you killed in Elf :3 vault room. Trust me.

[Sar]

That has little to do with Stealth skill though, which makes enemies in your line of sight less likely to notice you and enemies outside of your line of sight more likely to forget you exist. Which can be useful in Elf.
Also, if there's an enemy in your line of sight and you want to attract its attention without shouting, throw a stone at it.

[skyspire]

well I only had 2.2 levels in stealth skill on my 10 rune win .. so really it depends on the build I suppose. When you are running around casting Tornado or Fire Storm or Chain Lightning, stealth becomes more pointless. Definitely stealth is more important for assassins and enchanters and lighter melee.. Harder to be stealthy with GDA or crystal plate

[and into]

rNeg is more important than good AC for the simple fact it lessens torment damage, which bypasses AC completely.

How are you getting tormented so much in Elf that the 5% torment damage reduction (not typo—it is only 5% per tick of rN) is meaningful? I said rN is better than warding because bolts of draining can be pretty nasty. Good AC is more important than either though.

rF and rC and rElec also prevent 50% damage from harmful spells that bypass AC. With high EV the bolt spells are likely to miss you completely. If you have good EV, AC is less important in Elf, especially if you are a caster with Freezing Cloud or Poison Cloud, which I will detail later.

Perhaps your low opinion of AC stems from this misunderstanding. Torment, hellfire, and smite do bypass AC (but also EV, nota bene!), other than that there are only a few other odd effects that ignore AC (like the attacks of spectral enemies, IIRC, and definitely the cold damage of ice fiends and simulacra). However, lightning bolt, bolt of draining, fire ball, bolt of fire, bolt of cold, throw flame, throw frost, chain lightning, etc. etc. are all subject to reduction by AC. That's why good AC is important. (Also rElec prevents two-thirds of the damage from the appropriate sources, but w/e.)

High AC / low EV is the biggest danger of Elf imho, because it paints a big target on your chest for LCS and all the bolt spells... I would much rather have AC 12 EV 30 in elf 3 than AC 30, EV 12 Too many players make the mistake of making AC more important than it is.

Well, as I said, fortunately good AC and good EV aren't (usually) mutually exclusive. Around 30 EV is a really good place to be, for sure, but you definitely want more than 12 AC. For most characters, only 12 AC in Elf is playing Russian roulette.

I state again, Cloud spells make Elf 3 "very easy" .. assuming that you have the cloud spells at strength especially with staff of cold or poison. Especially on Elf 3 maps with a corridor choke point. The technique is simple.. [...] No need for stealth, no need for curare. No need for high AC. I much prefer a high EV melee fighter to a high AC one. No need for high GDR when they rarely hit you.

No one said anything about GDR until now. Since melee attacks are even less of a concern in Elf 3 relative to all the other potential threats (blademasters notwithstanding), GDR matters even less than it usually does.

Yes, I'm familiar with the fumigation technique, having cleared Elf numerous times using it (though I have also cleared Elf numerous times having not used it). It is effective for killing elves. It doesn't change the fact that elves are very dangerous and Elf 3 is no place you want to be if your character isn't very good defensively. The fact that some of the elves can blink, and several of them can summon, in particular means that you shouldn't be throwing clouds around willy nilly. Drawing a couple at a time into a corridor then casting clouds at them to kill outside of, or just at the edge of, LOS works well, but stealth is extremely helpful (necessary in fact) for safely employing precisely this technique. And you need to have another good kill spell in case an unlucky annihilator blink puts him close to you.

LMAO.. Elf is 100% worth it for those who are prepared and know what they are doing. The loot is worth it, on par with Vault 5 loot , in fact I like Elf 3 loot better than Vault 5 loot, from my experience. Seems I always find something uber that I need there. Many times it is recommended to do Elf 3 after Vault 5, in case you don't have good enough MR / equipment. I do find Vault 5 to be easier, usually (depending on the character build). Personally, I look forward to Elf 3 and will clear it early if I got good MR. A few days ago I cleared it before taking any runes. So its definitely doable early and I find it fun and rewarding.

Vault 5 has a rune in it.

Doing Elf can be fun, sure, and if you like clearing it, go for it. But in terms of maximizing your chances to win, it is nearly always a net loss. You don't need "uber" gear to beat Crawl. Even the most "uber" equipment (awesome randarts, etc.) is in fact a good deal less useful than a a couple of unassuming good wands or even just getting a generous amount of !heal wounds, !speed, !resistance, ?teleport, ?blinking over the course of the game. Of course, really flashy artefacts are fun and cool, and they can be very powerful, but from a practical standpoint they really, really aren't necessary. Unlike some fantasy games, in Crawl there simply is not a level of "uber gear" that makes you invincible. So risking your life for a (still very small) chance to get stuff that is as close as Crawl comes to "uber gear" is generally not worth it, because you only die once. (Again, "worth it" from a "I want to maximize my chances of winning this game" perspective.)

I strongly disagree. In my experience, High EV always trumps high AC, not only for Elf, but the entire game. Don't knock it until you try it. About the only time I like high AC higher than EV is maybe Lair and early branches. Otherwise, I love having my EV always higher than my AC, when I can. AC becomes even less important in the end game, when the game is about torment and hellfire (which ignores AC completely) The ideal is to not be hit at all, not even getting to a damage reduction stage.

Respectfully—what in the blazes are you talking about? At what point in a normal (3 to 5 rune) game does Crawl become about torment and hellfire, both of which *also* ignore EV completely? Yes, of course the idea is not to get hit at all, good tactics and positioning helps a lot with that, as does knowing when to run and/or use consumables to get away. Having good basic defenses (AC and EV) is still necessary. And, fortunately, having a lot of one usually does not prevent having at least a respectable amount of the other. High AC does not necessarily mean low EV. (High AC does not necessarily mean you are wearing heavy armor, for starters. And you can wear pretty heavy armor and still get good EV without too much difficulty.) A lot of unexamined assumptions on your part makes it difficult to discuss with you meaningfully how EV and AC actually work in the game. Dex and dodging are great, high EV is great. If you are relying on EV as your main source of damage mitigation, though, you still want to get decent AC eventually, otherwise you are taking an unnecessarily high level of risk with your character, due to the way EV works.

I know at least one player who likes to shout outside the vault to draw out the elves. It is the opposite strategy to stealth.

Sorry, shouting outside the vault is just dumb, the only reason to do that is lack of patience. Intentionally being less stealthy than you need to be is not really a "strategy" for the most part, certainly not in Elf 3. (Well I guess there were some shenanigans you could sometimes pull with project noise back when that was a spell, but it no longer exists.) Wearing heavy armor and casting certain spells generally means you won't be stealthy, but that's an unfortunate penalty that comes with using those tools. But no matter what, going out of your way to draw the attention of more enemies than necessary for your build, is simply bad play. As Sar pointed out, there are other (better) ways of drawing one or two enemies away at a time, to be dealt with safely.

[rebthor]

I would much rather have AC 12 EV 30 in elf 3 than AC 30, EV 12

And I think that about says it all.

[crate]

Shouting outside the elf vault is dumb, but that's because shouting isn't really loud enough to do anything (it barely extends past los, if at all, except in crypt/tomb). Casting lightning bolt or such to draw elves out is in fact not a bad idea with many of the elf end vaults.

[and into]

Shouting outside the elf vault is dumb, but that's because shouting isn't really loud enough to do anything (it barely extends past los, if at all, except in crypt/tomb). Casting lightning bolt or such to draw elves out is in fact not a bad idea with many of the elf end vaults.

Fair enough, I have never tried casting lightning bolt (or LRD) specifically to try drawing elves out into the narrow corridor in Elf 3 before.

[pickled_heretic]

one of those places where you could dig a 1 tile visible corridor and just shout spam everything to come die 1 at a time with a melee character.

That would be a very long list of places. Dig being broken is not really relevant here.

How is that not relevant? It makes elf pretty damn safe for a melee character. We are talking about elf being too dangerous to be worth it. Seems plenty relevant to me.

[Baldu2]

The thing the blue named players are trying to communicate is that all those tools that make elf safer make getting runes and the orb safer too. And presently, only lair and orc contain neither runes nor the orb but still increase the chance of getting runes and the orb more then they increase the chance of dying. Therefore, in a game focused purely on achieving a win, outside of edge cases, it is optimal to do lair, orc, get 3 safest runes, get the orb, win, and do nothing else.

Exemple: someone mentioned freezing cloud and dig make elf massively easier. They also make zot massively easier.

[mikee]

The only thing I learned from this thread is that everyone hates crypt.

[Mankeli]

At least the curse skull part of it.

[Lasty]

I don't want to derail, but I actually don't mind curse skulls. I see them as an enemy designed to be a relatively infrequent but top-level challenge (now that just walking away from them isn't particularly safe), and I find it mildly interesting to lure them into a position where I can either approach them quickly and finish them off in melee combat or position myself to snipe them with rods of inaccuracy or iron shot (or large rocks, or crossbows with piercing bolts, or whatever).

If they were all over the place I'd probably start to hate them too.

[pickled_heretic]

Exemple: someone mentioned freezing cloud and dig make elf massively easier. They also make zot massively easier.

How does dig make zot easier exactly?

[Sjohara]

LMAO.. Elf is 100% worth it for those who are prepared and know what they are doing. The loot is worth it, on par with Vault 5 loot , in fact I like Elf 3 loot better than Vault 5 loot, from my experience. Seems I always find something uber that I need there. Many times it is recommended to do Elf 3 after Vault 5, in case you don't have good enough MR / equipment. I do find Vault 5 to be easier, usually (depending on the character build). Personally, I look forward to Elf 3 and will clear it early if I got good MR. A few days ago I cleared it before taking any runes. So its definitely doable early and I find it fun and rewarding.

I think the flaw in your argument here is that you're ascribing intrinsic value to loot.

Imagine hypothetical equally-skilled players X and Y. X runs Elf 100% of the time and Y never runs Elf no matter what. If X survives Elf on 98% of runs, but only 1% of Y's Zot attempts results in a death that would have been prevented if they had some particular piece of Elf loot, then going to Elf is generally a bad play even though it's "safe". That's what people are claiming. That your odds of being killed by an elf (however low they are in absolute terms) are higher than the odds of something from the vault preventing a death to something else.

Personally I almost always do Elf and don't have a reasoned opinion one way or another as to whether it's optimal or not, but it helps to keep the argument framed properly.

[mikee]

So is skyspire suggesting that the people who disagree with him overrate elf's danger because they don't know how to do elf and he does? That's a really strange position to maintain when one has had to edit about half of one's comments due to people correcting their content.

[Volteccer_Jack]

How does dig make zot easier exactly?

exactly the same way it makes everything else easier, obviously (at least until someone adds a digger to the zot spawn list (I still think shatter slugs would be a cool addition))

The loot is worth it

http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=orb+guardian
http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php? ... lademaster
If you're strong enough to kill one of these why would you need loot to kill the other?

[skyspire]

I'm just sharing insights gained from experience that I wish someone told me about sooner. If you don't find my advice helpful, then don't do it. Right now I'm playing a more challenging character that I'm not risking Elf:3 on , because my resistance is only "very resistant" and I don't want to get banished (level 21 GrAs of Kiku).. So yes I am cautious, and I do follow my own advice.

[skyspire]

Update, I just cleared Elf:3 with just "very resistant" .. I did get banished to the Abyss once, but my character was strong enough to handle it, so I took that chance. Malign Gateway was fun vs the uber elves Elf:3 didn't feel threatening at all, I really think people are overly scared of it. With the right preparation, it is really not much of a challenge. But then again, I just cleared Slime and Tomb 1-3 fairly easily with the same guy, so it depends on the build you have.

[pratamawirya]

The thing the blue named players are trying to communicate is that all those tools that make elf safer make getting runes and the orb safer too. And presently, only lair and orc contain neither runes nor the orb but still increase the chance of getting runes and the orb more then they increase the chance of dying. Therefore, in a game focused purely on achieving a win, outside of edge cases, it is optimal to do lair, orc, get 3 safest runes, get the orb, win, and do nothing else.

Exemple: someone mentioned freezing cloud and dig make elf massively easier. They also make zot massively easier.

[njvack]

Elf:3 didn't feel threatening at all, I really think people are overly scared of it. With the right preparation, it is really not much of a challenge.

Sheesh. The point of this thread is not that Elf:3 can't be cleared, or even that it isn't easy sometimes. It's that occasionally an annihilator will blink near you and spear you in the face, or a demonologist will spam ice fiends or something. It's one of those places where you can go from 'killing everyone' to 'dead' insanely fast.

I usually clear Elf, but that's because I like killing the elves and I like getting loot, and they're both more fun than trying to optimize my win rate. But my win rate is abysmal because I take risks like that.

[pickled_heretic]

I think part of it is different perspectives from playing different characters differently. By the time I get a typical ogre or naga to elf 3, a single spear is not going to come anywhere near killing me anyway. A couple might make me run, but that won't kill me either.

Whether or not dig makes zot easier is irrelevant; you are literally required to finish zot. You are not required to visit any one branch at all since any combination of runes will win you the game. It would be better to compare dig effectiveness to other optional branch ends e.g. shoals or swamp (where it is mostly useless).

[wheals]

Isn't shoals the best lair branch ending to use dig? The other three generally have stone, and in Shoals you can make an alternative entry to the huts instead of the deathtrap entryways.

[diviton]

Elf:3 didn't feel threatening at all, I really think people are overly scared of it. With the right preparation, it is really not much of a challenge.

Sheesh. The point of this thread is not that Elf:3 can't be cleared, or even that it isn't easy sometimes. It's that occasionally an annihilator will blink near you and spear you in the face, or a demonologist will spam ice fiends or something. It's one of those places where you can go from 'killing everyone' to 'dead' insanely fast.

I usually clear Elf, but that's because I like killing the elves and I like getting loot, and they're both more fun than trying to optimize my win rate. But my win rate is abysmal because I take risks like that.

I agree with everything in this post.

Elf:3 has this habit of lulling me into a false sense of security. I'll be annihilating Elves and then all of a sudden, I'm tormented by a fiend, with an Executioner in my face. It's unique in the sense that it goes from easy to almost dead really fast.

I also agree about clearing Elf:3 because killing Elves is fun and collecting loot is fun, regardless of whether or not you need anything. Fun > Win rates