What's so bad about Swamp?


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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 1st November 2013, 13:46

What's so bad about Swamp?

I see many players don't like Swamp yet I don't understand why. It has a nice monster set and I almost always autoexplore every floor. Swamp 5 endings can be very fun/challenging too, especially with Lernaean Hydra.

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Post Friday, 1st November 2013, 14:03

Re: What's so bad about Swamp?

Sandman25 wrote:I see many players don't like Swamp yet I don't understand why. It has a nice monster set and I almost always autoexplore every floor. Swamp 5 endings can be very fun/challenging too, especially with Lernaean Hydra.

Because the simulacrum ending vault kills my berserk speedrunners :cry:.

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Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 1st November 2013, 14:31

Re: What's so bad about Swamp?

  Code:
There is a strange disturbance nearby!
There is a strange disturbance nearby!
There is a strange disturbance nearby!
There is a strange disturbance nearby!
There is a strange disturbance nearby!


Also, shallow water.

Edit: also, mangroves.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 1st November 2013, 14:38

Re: What's so bad about Swamp?

Sar wrote:
  Code:
There is a strange disturbance nearby!
There is a strange disturbance nearby!
There is a strange disturbance nearby!
There is a strange disturbance nearby!
There is a strange disturbance nearby!


Also, shallow water.


I like a strange disturbance, it is food and very easy XP.
True, shallow water can bring some problems when autoexplore discovers a dangerous monster but it is not worse than finding a group of footaurs in the open IMHO. Swamp has a nice layout that can be used to player advantage often and I like it.

Dungeon Master

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Post Friday, 1st November 2013, 14:39

Re: What's so bad about Swamp?

I don't really understand the hostility towards (new) Swamp, except for submerging monsters. I agree that monsters submerging after you've seen them already is aggravating.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 1st November 2013, 14:40

Re: What's so bad about Swamp?

Sar wrote:Edit: also, mangroves.


I see now. It is annoying to players who don't use autoexplore feature. Autoexplore does not care about mangroves.

Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 1st November 2013, 14:42

Re: What's so bad about Swamp?

Who cares about food and XP. It disables both Tab and o, two most important buttons in Crawl, for no good reason ("realism"). It's absolutely infuriating.

Regarding mangroves, they disable both autoexplore and autofight too - if you see a monster behind some trees, you can't autoexplore and you obviously can't tab it.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 1st November 2013, 14:49

Re: What's so bad about Swamp?

Sar wrote:Who cares about food and XP. It disables both Tab and o, two most important buttons in Crawl, for no good reason ("realism"). It's absolutely infuriating.

Regarding mangroves, they disable both autoexplore and autofight too - if you see a monster behind some trees, you can't autoexplore and you obviously can't tab it.


I am so careless player that I haven't noticed it ;)
Thank you, now I see why Swamp is bad. I think Forest is as bad then.
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Post Friday, 1st November 2013, 15:24

Re: What's so bad about Swamp?

...but mangroves block sight just like rock walls. That's why Swamp doesn't have normal trees; people complained about the thing you're complaining about, so they fixed it.

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Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 1st November 2013, 15:31

Re: What's so bad about Swamp?

Well damn, seems like I'm not very attentive then. Sorry.

Shoals Surfer

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Post Friday, 1st November 2013, 15:32

Re: What's so bad about Swamp?

New swamp is great.

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Friday, 1st November 2013, 16:58

Re: What's so bad about Swamp?

Yeah I also don't see why people dislike it. "Oh no shallow water" "I might have to take a step back to not fight in shallow water" "Shallow water is so bad". The shallow water creates a unique set of positioning choices to make, not seen in other branches (less so after new Swamp, but the change to new Swamp was needed for other reasons). How do I position myself to stay on ground while fighting multiple enemies? How do I have to move so that the hydra or alligator don't catch me (or get less hits)? And it's not more tedious to explore than other branches unless you're playing Crawl 0.9 or something.

Suggestion for swamp worms: make them completely invisible while submerged (sinv doesn't work). They can move while submerged. They're permanently submerged until they attack the player. After they attack the player they can't submerge. They have non-annoying AI (so not like the one they have now): they DON'T retreat into deep water if they're damaged and the player moves away. Instead they always try to move towards the player.

The result is that they pop out of the water with a surprise attack, like trapdoor spiders (but can move around hidden before attacking). After surprise attacking they become non-annoying enemies. Autoexplore fixed, annoyance fixed, makes them interesting because they can suddenly appear next to the player at a bad time.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 1st November 2013, 18:20

Re: What's so bad about Swamp?

it has water
as a slightly lesser annoyance, it has trees

these are pretty high on my list of least favourite terrain features, though they're still far below the worst of all (webs)

Dungeon Master

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Post Friday, 1st November 2013, 18:26

Re: What's so bad about Swamp?

Wahaha wrote:Suggestion for swamp worms: They can move while submerged. They're permanently submerged until they attack the player. After they attack the player they can't submerge. They have non-annoying AI (so not like the one they have now): they DON'T retreat into deep water if they're damaged and the player moves away. Instead they always try to move towards the player.

This is what I suggested once. Will do again once I have my Crawl-mind free for new stuff.

dck

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Post Friday, 1st November 2013, 19:22

Re: What's so bad about Swamp?

Water making walking annoying and unreliable and also making o take huge detours around it wasting 2k turns on a level.
Resubmerging and retreating monsters, monsters not very interesting overall I'd say too. Also retreating dragons in a place with a lot of water.
Mangroves setting themselves on fire if you happen to zap a wand of lightning or mara chucks a bolt of fire at you or whatever and creating so much god damn steam, steam everywhere.
Also some of the endings are a huge disappointment, particularly the lake of fire one with all the drakes and little more. I mean, damn drakes for a branch end with a rune, christ.

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Post Friday, 1st November 2013, 19:33

Re: What's so bad about Swamp?

Play Merfolk and become a strange disturbance yourself.

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Post Saturday, 2nd November 2013, 20:46

Re: What's so bad about Swamp?

Sandman25 wrote:I see many players don't like Swamp yet I don't understand why.

People just like to complain.
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Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 2nd November 2013, 20:50

Re: What's so bad about Swamp?

People are the worst. The game would be much better without them.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 2nd November 2013, 20:54

Re: What's so bad about Swamp?

galehar wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:I see many players don't like Swamp yet I don't understand why.

People just like to complain.


Yes, I know, I have this sin too ;) But there should be some reasoning (even if irrational), nobody complains about ... Here I took a break and thought a little. Well, you are right, I can't find a branch people don't complain about... Even Temple is expected to have Jiyva altar by some players.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 2nd November 2013, 22:03

Re: What's so bad about Swamp?

That's the solution! Just remove all players from DCSS and it would be the perfect game.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 3rd November 2013, 01:39

Re: What's so bad about Swamp?

Having tab target submerged enemies should help against the disturbances.
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