Spells for mid-late games?

[nordetsa]

Been playing quite well as Kiku MfIE, but as I get closer to mid-late game I'm concerned how should I deal with tough ice resistant enemies (like frost giant, possible ice fiend, shadow dragon, etc).

I can learn bolt of draining, but doesn't most late game enemies are resistant to it? For undead I can cast dispell undead, but I heard ancient lichs takes 5~6 cast to take it down. Right now I really have only ice/necromatic spells, as you can see:

  Code:

a - Freeze                Ice            ####         0%          1    None
b - Throw Frost           Conj/Ice       ######       0%          2    None
c - Throw Icicle          Conj/Ice       ######..     1%          4    None
d - Animate Skeleton      Necr           N/A          0%          1    None
e - Ozocubu's Armour      Chrm/Ice       ######....   1%          3    None
f - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       ####......   1%          2    None
g - Summon Ice Beast      Ice/Summ       ######....   1%          4    None
h - Vampiric Draining     Necr           ######....   1%          3    None
i - Dispel Undead         Necr           ######..     1%          5    ##.....
j - Magic Dart            Conj           ####         1%          1    None
k - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          1%          2    None
l - Freezing Cloud        Conj/Ice/Air   ######....   3%          6    #####..
m - Apportation           Tloc           ####......   1%          1    None
n - Swiftness             Chrm/Air       ####......   1%          2    None
o - Animate Dead          Necr           N/A          1%          4    None


And I've realized the attack spells are quite monotone: freeze/throw icicle/dispell undead/freezing cloud/vampiric draining. So against cold/drain resistant enemy that is not undead my spells wouldn't be effective. What spells should I look for?

[defen]

You should have a polearm of pain and maybe some kind of bardiche or demon trident for a swap. It's a sin to neglect your melee on a merfolk. Dispel is perfectly sufficient for liches and the like.

[nordetsa]

I do have +7 +5 pain trident (shame it isn't demon trident, but they don't come that often).

But I'm not so sure about meleeing frost giant and hitting them with pain trident. It worked with tentacled monstrosity though...

[pubby]

Why didn't you post your whole dump? It's hard to give advice without seeing your character.

I'm very partial to IOoD. If you can learn that you'll be set.

[nordetsa]

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.13-a0-1108-gaf454e1 (tiles) character file.

How does this work the Gelid (MfIE)                Turns: 58310, Time: 06:10:20

HP 149/149       AC 21     Str 10      XL: 21   Next: 13%
MP  29/39        EV 18     Int 24      God: Kikubaaqudgha [******]
Gold 1597        SH 11     Dex 19      Spells: 15 memorised,  6 levels left

Res.Fire  : + + +   See Invis. : +   Y - +7,+6 trident (pain)
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : .   N - +2 faerie dragon armour {rF+ Dex+1 SInv}
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : +   T - +1 buckler {rF+}
Res.Poison: +       Res.Corr.  : .   F - +3 wizard hat of the Vestibule of Hell {St
Res.Elec. : .       Clarity    : .   U - +2 cloak {rPois}
Sust.Abil.: . .     Spirit.Shd : .   f - +3 pair of gloves of Focus {+Inv Dex+1}
Res.Mut.  : .       Stasis     : .   S - +2 pair of elf boots
Res.Rott. : .       Flight     : .   u - amulet of conservation
Saprovore : . . .                    x - ring "Kotyhag" {Wiz MR++}
                                     n - ring of protection from fire

@: extraordinarily resistant to hostile enchantments, quite stealthy
A: change form in water, swift swim, slow metabolism 1, Dex +1
a: Receive Corpses, Torment, Renounce Religion, Evoke Invisibility
}: 2/15 runes: decaying, serpentine


You are on level 22 of the Dungeon.
You worship Kikubaaqudgha.
Kikubaaqudgha is exalted by your worship.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 5 branches of the dungeon, and seen 44 of its levels.
You have also visited: Labyrinth.

You have collected 4265 gold pieces.
You have spent 2688 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 K - a blowgun
 Y - a +7,+6 trident of pain (weapon)
Armour
 f - the +3 pair of gloves of Focus (worn) {+Inv Dex+1}
   (You found it on level 20 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It affects your dexterity (+1).
   It lets you turn invisible.
 o - the +2 cloak "Skurenupn" {rC+}
   (You acquired it on level 14 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It protects you from cold.
 F - the +3 wizard hat of the Vestibule of Hell (worn) {Str-1 Int+4}
   (You found it on level 2 of the Orcish Mines)   
   
   It affects your strength (-1).
   It affects your intelligence (+4).
 N - the +2 faerie dragon armour (worn) {rF+ Dex+1 SInv}
   (You took it off the Enchantress on level 21 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It affects your dexterity (+1).
   It protects you from fire.
   It enhances your eyesight.
 S - a +2 pair of elven boots (worn)
 T - a +1 buckler of fire resistance (worn)
 U - a +2 cloak of poison resistance (worn)
Magical devices
 b - a wand of heal wounds (9)
 t - a wand of digging {zapped: 3}
 O - a wand of draining {zapped: 2}
 Q - a wand of disintegration {zapped: 8}
Comestibles
 c - 8 bread rations
 g - 2 meat rations
 R - 2 cheeses
Scrolls
 a - 3 scrolls of remove curse
 i - 2 scrolls of blinking
 k - a scroll of silence
 w - 2 scrolls of identify
 A - a scroll of magic mapping
 B - 5 scrolls of recharging
 G - 10 scrolls of teleportation
 I - 3 scrolls of fog
Jewellery
 e - an uncursed amulet of resist corrosion
 n - a ring of protection from fire (left hand)
 u - an amulet of conservation (around neck)
 v - a +3 ring of intelligence
 x - the ring "Kotyhag" (right hand) {Wiz MR++}
   (You found it on level 20 of the Dungeon)   
   
   [ring of wizardry]
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
 y - an uncursed amulet of warding
 D - an uncursed amulet of resist mutation
 H - the amulet "Ydeawiq" {Ward +Blink rElec Acc+6}
   (You found it on level 20 of the Dungeon)   
   
   [amulet of warding]
   It affects your accuracy (+6).
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It lets you blink.
 J - the amulet of Tweesumi {+Rage rElec rC+}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines)   
   
   [amulet of rage]
   It protects you from cold.
   It insulates you from electricity.
Potions
 j - a potion of agility
 m - 2 potions of curing
 r - 4 potions of might
 s - 3 potions of invisibility
 E - 2 potions of speed
 L - 3 potions of restore abilities
 M - 2 potions of resistance
 W - 2 potions of magic
Books
 l - a book of Death   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Corpse Rot                         Necromancy                   2
   Sublimation of Blood               Necromancy                   2
   Agony                              Necromancy                   5
   *Dispel Undead                     Necromancy                   5
   Excruciating Wounds                Charms/Necromancy            5
   Bolt of Draining                   Conjuration/Necromancy       6
 q - a book of War Chants   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Fire Brand                         Charms/Fire                  2
   Freezing Aura                      Charms/Ice                   2
   Shroud of Golubria                 Charms/Translocation         2
   *Repel Missiles                    Charms/Air                   2
   Poison Weapon                      Charms/Poison                3
   Regeneration                       Charms/Necromancy            3
 z - a book of Frost   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   *Freeze                            Ice                          1
   *Throw Frost                       Conjuration/Ice              2
   *Ozocubu's Armour                  Charms/Ice                   3
   *Throw Icicle                      Conjuration/Ice              4
   *Summon Ice Beast                  Ice/Summoning                4
   Condensation Shield                Ice                          4
 C - a book of Unlife   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Recall                             Summoning/Translocation      3
   *Animate Dead                      Necromancy                   4
   Control Undead                     Necromancy                   4
   Twisted Resurrection               Necromancy                   5
   Death Channel                      Necromancy                   6
   Simulacrum                         Ice/Necromancy               6
 P - a book of Enchantments   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Cause Fear                         Hexes                        4
   Silence                            Hexes/Air                    5
   Tukima's Dance                     Hexes                        5
   Deflect Missiles                   Charms/Air                   6
   Haste                              Charms                       6


   Skills:
 - Level 10.0 Fighting
 - Level 14.1 Polearms
 - Level 10.1 Dodging
 - Level 5.4 Stealth
 - Level 2.0 Shields
 - Level 10.4 Traps
 * Level 13.5 Spellcasting
 - Level 10.2 Conjurations
 - Level 2.8 Charms
 - Level 4.0 Summonings
 - Level 15.0 Necromancy
 - Level 2.0 Translocations
 - Level 20.1 Ice Magic
 - Level 3.5 Air Magic


You have 6 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Freeze                Ice            ####         0%          1    None
b - Throw Frost           Conj/Ice       ######       0%          2    None
c - Throw Icicle          Conj/Ice       ######..     1%          4    None
d - Animate Skeleton      Necr           N/A          0%          1    None
e - Ozocubu's Armour      Chrm/Ice       ######....   1%          3    None
f - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       ####......   1%          2    None
g - Summon Ice Beast      Ice/Summ       ######....   1%          4    None
h - Vampiric Draining     Necr           ######....   1%          3    None
i - Dispel Undead         Necr           ######..     1%          5    ##.....
j - Magic Dart            Conj           ####         1%          1    None
k - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          1%          2    None
l - Freezing Cloud        Conj/Ice/Air   ######....   3%          6    #####..
m - Apportation           Tloc           ####......   1%          1    None
n - Swiftness             Chrm/Air       ####......   1%          2    None
o - Animate Dead          Necr           N/A          1%          4    None


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Here's the whole character dump.

[moocowmoocow]

Guaranteed you want Haste if you can find it. You pretty much double your offensive power as well as escape capability while under its effects.

For direct damage spells, I think Iron Shot is pretty good against everything. Shadow Creatures is extremely powerful summoning spell, and only one level higher than Summon Ice Beast which rapidly loses effectiveness even in midgame (swap it out). I would get those two for sure if you can find them, although if your melee is strong enough you might just take other utility stuff like teleport control instead of direct damage. Other good pure damage spells are Poison Arrow, OoD, and Ice Storm hits pretty hard even against ice resistant I believe (but requires heavy skill investment and may tax your mana).

Pretty sure that trident of pain would make quick work even of giants... test it out in fsim in wizard mode on a test character to see what kind of damage it does.

[rchandra]

I used a sabre of pain through zot:5, with Dispel Undead for aliches and Simulacrum for orbs of fire. There's basically nothing you can't take out with those (Agony helps kill some things faster).

ink to morgue - I dropped the sabre in Tomb due to weight and didn't pick it up because panic, but I think it was only +6. (also threw the spriggan's knife - whoops).

[nago]

Any weapon of pain with 15 kills anything is affected perfectly. Next time, pain a spear, it has an higher attack speed and both base damage are both bad.

You have already enough different ways to deal with enemies, as there aren't many dangerous enemies who are both immune to ice and necromancy (actually no one in normal game comes in mind to me) . If you really want Just grab a bardiche or learn any irresistible spells.

[nordetsa]

Oh, forgot about simulacrum. To use those I have to wield a chunk on hand, right? Wonder if getting corpses would be useful. Never used much of Kiku's ability btw. Would like to use torment on V:5, but sure that's going to be a suicide.

And doesn't agony becomes ineffective because most late-game mobs have negative energy resistance (I could be wrong here).

[nago]

Still, many late game enemies don't have rn - giants, trolls, draconians etc - so agony is a very good spell all the game.

Simulacrum with king's corpse in deep dungeon is insane: a coup of invocations and you have an army of 10/20 dragons/giants/whatever which murder everything

[nordetsa]

Simulacrum with king's corpse in deep dungeon is insane: a coup of invocations and you have an army of 10/20 dragons/giants/whatever which murder everything

I'm assuming that king is kiku. And that reminds me again; I haven't invested in any invocation yet

[nago]

Yeah, kiku, stupid keyboard's corrector.

Kiku abilities aren't base on invocation but on necro's skill

[nordetsa]

So getting good corpses depend on how high necromancy skill you have? I think I used it one time and was disappointed when I got kobold corpses.

[prozacelf]

The corpses are appropriate for the area you're in. So, kobolds and the like are what you'll see in the early dungeon. I think your necromancy level affects how many you get mainly.

[nordetsa]

  Code:

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.13-a0-1108-gaf454e1 (tiles) character file.

How does this work the Gelid (MfIE)                Turns: 82166, Time: 09:02:24

HP 191/191       AC 22     Str 15      XL: 25   Next: 71%
MP  45/45        EV 25     Int 29      God: Kikubaaqudgha [******]
Gold 2835        SH 13     Dex 20      Spells: 17 memorised,  4 levels left

Res.Fire  : + + .   See Invis. : +   A - +6,+4 demon trident (pain)
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : .   N - +2 faerie dragon armour {rF+ Dex+1 SInv}
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : +   T - +3 buckler {rF+}
Res.Poison: .       Res.Corr.  : +   F - +3 wizard hat of the Vestibule of Hell {St
Res.Elec. : .       Clarity    : .   y - +2 cloak {rCorr, Cons}
Sust.Abil.: . .     Spirit.Shd : .   f - +3 pair of gloves of Focus {+Inv Dex+1}
Res.Mut.  : +       Stasis     : .   S - +2 pair of elf boots
Res.Rott. : .       Flight     : .   D - amulet of resist mutation
Saprovore : . . .                    z - ring of the Octopus King {Hunger- AC+1 EV+
                                     h - ring "Saneg" {+Inv Str+2 Int+4}

@: quite resistant to hostile enchantments, quite stealthy
A: change form in water, swift swim, slow metabolism 1, Dex +1
a: Receive Corpses, Torment, Renounce Religion, Evoke Invisibility
}: 3/15 runes: decaying, serpentine, silver


You are on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts.
You worship Kikubaaqudgha.
Kikubaaqudgha is exalted by your worship.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 7 branches of the dungeon, and seen 52 of its levels.
You have visited the Abyss 4 times.
You have visited 1 bazaar.
You have also visited: Labyrinth and Trove.

You have collected 6379 gold pieces.
You have spent 3564 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 u - the +8,+6 bardiche of Reinforcement {pain, rC+ Str+3}
   (You found it on level 3 of the Elven Halls)   
   
   In the hands of one skilled in necromantic magic, it inflicts extra damage
   on living creatures.
   
   It affects your strength (+3).
   It protects you from cold.
 A - a +6,+4 demon trident of pain (weapon)
 K - a +0 blowgun
Missiles
 p - 5 curare-tipped needles
Armour
 f - the +3 pair of gloves of Focus (worn) {+Inv Dex+1}
   (You found it on level 20 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It affects your dexterity (+1).
   It lets you turn invisible.
 y - a +2 cloak of preservation (worn)
 F - the +3 wizard hat of the Vestibule of Hell (worn) {Str-1 Int+4}
   (You found it on level 2 of the Orcish Mines)   
   
   It affects your strength (-1).
   It affects your intelligence (+4).
 N - the +2 faerie dragon armour (worn) {rF+ Dex+1 SInv}
   (You took it off the Enchantress on level 21 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It affects your dexterity (+1).
   It protects you from fire.
   It enhances your eyesight.
 S - a +2 pair of elven boots (worn)
 T - a +3 buckler of fire resistance (worn)
Magical devices
 b - a wand of heal wounds (6)
 l - a wand of disintegration (5)
 t - a wand of digging (6)
Comestibles
 c - 3 bread rations
 g - 6 meat rations
 q - an apple
Scrolls
 a - 9 scrolls of remove curse
 e - a scroll of amnesia
 i - a scroll of blinking
 k - 2 scrolls of silence
 v - 2 scrolls of magic mapping
 B - a scroll of recharging
 G - 5 scrolls of teleportation
 I - 8 scrolls of fog
 O - 2 scrolls of fear
Jewellery
 d - a glowing coral ring
 h - the ring "Saneg" (left hand) {+Inv Str+2 Int+4}
   (You found it in a treasure trove)   
   
   [ring of invisibility]
   It affects your strength (+2).
   It affects your intelligence (+4).
 n - an uncursed ring of protection from fire
 o - the ring "Taih" {rC+ Dex+3 Acc+3}
   (You found it in a treasure trove)   
   
   [ring of protection from cold]
   It affects your dexterity (+3).
   It affects your accuracy (+3).
 z - a ring of the Octopus King (right hand) {Hunger- AC+1 EV+1 Str+1 Dex+1 Int+1}
   (You took it off a yaktaur captain on level 5 of the Vaults)   
   
   [ring of sustenance]
   It affects your AC (+1).
   It affects your evasion (+1).
   It affects your strength (+1).
   It affects your intelligence (+1).
   It affects your dexterity (+1).
 C - the ring "Streaseru" {+Rage +Fly rElec rF+ Int-2 SInv}
   (You took it off a yaktaur on level 5 of the Vaults)   
   
   [ring of flight]
   It affects your intelligence (-2).
   It protects you from fire.
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It enhances your eyesight.
   It lets you go berserk.
 D - an amulet of resist mutation (around neck)
 H - the amulet "Ydeawiq" {Ward +Blink rElec Acc+6}
   (You found it on level 20 of the Dungeon)   
   
   [amulet of warding]
   It affects your accuracy (+6).
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It lets you blink.
 J - the amulet of Tweesumi {+Rage rElec rC+}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines)   
   
   [amulet of rage]
   It protects you from cold.
   It insulates you from electricity.
 Z - an uncursed ring of protection from cold
Potions
 j - 2 potions of agility
 m - 6 potions of curing
 r - 6 potions of might
 s - 2 potions of invisibility
 E - 5 potions of speed
 L - 7 potions of restore abilities
 M - 3 potions of resistance
 Q - 2 potions of brilliance
 R - a potion of flight
 U - a potion of heal wounds
 W - 2 potions of magic


   Skills:
 - Level 15.0 Fighting
 - Level 14.1 Polearms
 - Level 15.0 Dodging
 - Level 5.4 Stealth
 - Level 2.0 Shields
 - Level 10.4 Traps
 * Level 19.3 Spellcasting
 - Level 10.3 Conjurations
 - Level 12.6 Charms
   Level 4.0 Summonings
 - Level 16.6 Necromancy
 - Level 2.0 Translocations
 - Level 20.1 Ice Magic
 - Level 3.5 Air Magic


You have 4 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Freeze                Ice            ####         0%          1    None
b - Agony                 Necr           #######.     1%          5    None
c - Throw Icicle          Conj/Ice       #######.     1%          4    None
d - Animate Skeleton      Necr           N/A          0%          1    None
e - Ozocubu's Armour      Chrm/Ice       #######...   0%          3    None
f - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       ######....   1%          2    None
g - Haste                 Chrm           #######.     1%          6    None
h - Bolt of Cold          Conj/Ice       #######...   1%          6    None
i - Dispel Undead         Necr           #######.     1%          5    None
j - Magic Dart            Conj           ####         1%          1    None
k - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          1%          2    None
l - Freezing Cloud        Conj/Ice/Air   #######...   2%          6    None
m - Apportation           Tloc           #####.....   1%          1    None
n - Swiftness             Chrm/Air       ######....   1%          2    None
o - Animate Dead          Necr           N/A          1%          4    None
p - Simulacrum            Ice/Necr       #######...   1%          6    None
q - Regeneration          Chrm/Necr      #######...   0%          3    None


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (22/27)            Temple (0/1) D:5             Orc (4/4) D:8
    Elf (3/3) Orc:3          Lair (8/8) D:10          Swamp (5/5) Lair:6
  Snake (5/5) Lair:3       Vaults (5/5) D:19          Blade (0/1) Vaults:4
  Crypt (0/5) Vaults:2   
 Slime: Lair:6-8   

Got 3 runes, cleared Elf:3 (got abyssed 4 times, don't know how could it happen so often-at least it's a sign of me not panicking when I go into the abyss).

At least I got acquirement scroll from abyss to go into trove.

Learned bolt of cold for long-range spell, haste for emergency, and simulacrum for cold and negative resistant enemies. Don't like how you have to wield meat to cast it, but I guess it is powerful enough... Would there be any spell I could learn? Perhaps shadow creatures for zot?

One problem I have is choosing weapons. I'm currently wielding

  Code:

 +6,+4 demon trident (pain)

, but in elf I found

  Code:

 u - the +8,+6 bardiche of Reinforcement {pain, rC+ Str+3}

. Would the bardiche be worth it for switch I wonder? Though I'm concerned about my relatively low polearm skill and lack of buckler (which gives me extra rF).

[Sandman25]

  Code:

quite resistant to hostile enchantments

This is very low MR, you need to be at least "extremely resistant" to be relatively safe from trip to Abyss.

With Demon trident you deal d(12*N + 4 + 16)/0.6 damage per aut, with Bardiche (18*N + 6 + 16)/0.7. N is about 1.5 with your current skills. So it is d38/0.6 vs d49/0.7, average values 31 vs 35. As you can see there is little sense to switch, though bardiche is much better vs rN+++ or high AC monsters. You can test it in wizmode for more accurate numbers.

[crate]

got abyssed 4 times

The first time it happens is supposed to teach you that it's likely to happen again unless you improve your MR....

[diviton]

I would definitely work on that Polearms skill and use tha Bardiche. With Merfolks high aptitude and the insane XP you get in Zot, by the time you hit Zot:5, you could have a serious improvement in your weapon skill. You might as well train it since your spells are all perfectly castable anyway.

[nordetsa]

Don't know if I should throw away that +3 rF buckler. I think it would help in zot:5...

Also, I still haven't figured out how to deal with potential OOF or electric golems. Maybe receive corpses from kiku and animate/simulacrum them I guess?

[Galefury]

That's what the bardiche would be for.