Dg challenge


Official tournaments, but also any competition, challenge of the week or other player initiative for competitive crawling.

Lair Larrikin

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Post Tuesday, 13th September 2016, 08:51

Dg challenge

This challenge is about streaking Dg with backgrounds chosen in alphabetical order(from DgAE to DgWz).If you splat,or start a game with a different race it's over.You have to play all your games on a single server .Also if you want comparable results(with me) play 0.18.
In 0.19 riposte get added and I don't know how op it is.
Any streak counts(2-21) so a lot of players can have fun with this.

People who are interested in streaks,highscores and things like that and people who clicked on my signature know that I already completed this chalenge.
So what is this all about, braging?
No.
Reasons:

1)Dealing with shitposters and trolls

You probably know there are some "hardcore" kids who say a lot of false things about DCSS.
They win(some of them) the game with a MiBe or another easy combo and become experts in DCSS.By reading what other people have to say about Crawl I've concluded I'm the only guy who is not an expert.Their reaction to a 21 win streak of Dg with all backgrounds is to say Dg is easy(as good as a Ce :o ).Some of their justifications are wiki tier:Dg is easy because you get +18 atributes points you put them all in Int and learn Firestorm so you become a better DE :lol:
Tbh I used Firestorm on my DgFE and that game was pretty easy,but I get lucky with a fire staff and Annihilations book,some early wizardry ring and I don't think I put all my points in Int.
That's the point: when you get lucky every combo is easy.
Another thing: nobody is caring about the samples size when they reach for conclusions.
If I would play a OpGl and get lucky with some early good rings and win I won't start posting how Op is op. 8-)
There's no point in starting an interminable disscussion about witch race is harder so I offer you 2 solutions to test it yourself:
a)if you're a good player try to streak all backgrounds in alphabetical order with a race(maybe the average of a few streaks)
b)play some(minimum 10) games with a race and see your win%
Sure if you're too good you can streak anything(Mu,Op,Dg,Fe..),but if that the case you have enough brain to judge the difficulty corectly.
The ideea here is you need a sample size big enough(20?) to exclude some RNG deviations(good or bad luck) to find out how easy or hard is a race.

2)Very good players having some fun

All big roguelikes have some challenges:conducts in Nethack,iron man in Angband,speed running(number of turns).
Speed runing is luck dependent(still fun) and MuMo challenge is retarded(pillar dancing and grinding).
It's very funny that people that say DCSS is not fun and complain about removals found MuMo challenge fun(no spells,gods,body armour,evocables,wands..).I guess some people like grinding.
Streaking moderate-hard combos seems an adequate challenge for good players.
Dg because gods are a little too powerful and sometimes they eliminate the efect of the bad RNG(situations where you have a shit weapon,armour or spells).
On my streak I got 4 lucky games and 3-4 shitty games.On most games I got a very hard early game(ood monsters,shafts,player ghosts,uniques) but that is to be expected to the slowest leveling up race and no god to help you.
I consider winning Dg a fair challenge(moderate difficulty?).

3)Helping players to get better

This is the most important reason;not puting shiters in their place(and stop them to say stupid things) or an elite players circlejerk.
The only way to improve is to get out of your comfort zone and try hard combos.
Sometimes when people are asking for advice or what they done wrong they get the answer"git gud" and the "experts" start making fun of them.
Well this is kinda true;there's no shortcut on becoming good.Reading guides,wiki,forums,asking for advice will only take you so far.In fact doing all those can make you a worse player than if would tried figuring stuff yourself(the game is giving you enough info so there's no need for "spoilers").
Strategy/adventure games with weird interactions like Nethack in a less measure ADOM may need guides and spoilers but DCSS is mostly a tactical game.
Most players are asking for strategy advice(skills,weapons,spells) when what they should do is get better at tactics(also learn controlls and basics mecanics).
Asking for advice before you tried to develop your own strategies and tactics may screw you irreparable.
If you want to try this challenge you shoud loose the otaber attitude(cool kid tabing fast easy combo with op god).
This is your chance to "git gud".

Dg challenge may expose you(maybe you're not that good and DCSS is not the easy game you thought it was) so I'm not expecting many people will try it.
If you want to try it let me know and I can offer you some basic advice(you can use my morgue files to get some strategic patern) and spectate you.

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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Tuesday, 13th September 2016, 09:02

Re: Dg challenge

Lair Larrikin

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Joined: Sunday, 10th January 2016, 17:05

Location: Romania

Post Tuesday, 13th September 2016, 09:18

Re: Dg challenge

BabyRage wrote:https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=21140
I found it!


If you want elitism you can find it here http://boards.4chan.org/vg/catalog#s=roguelike

Slime Squisher

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Post Tuesday, 13th September 2016, 10:15

Re: Dg challenge

Your post is hard to read and I'm not sure what's your point, but congrats on the Dg streak, it's impressive.

I'm pretty sure I don't have an attention span long enough to seriously try this, though if I had, I think I would stand a chanceto do all Dg backgrounds in 100 games. Maybe I'll try it on a different account some time.

Why alphabetical order though?

Lair Larrikin

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Location: Romania

Post Tuesday, 13th September 2016, 10:53

Re: Dg challenge

tldr version
Dg challenge:streak Dg with backgrounds choosen in alphabetical order(AE,AM,Ar,...,Wn,Wr,Wz).
Every streak is a succes.So if you get this streak:DgAE,DgAM then you win the challenge(with 2 points).
Depending how good(and lucky) you are you can get between 2 and 21 points.

1)people who said Dg is easy are retarded
2)this is a fun challenge for good players(more fun than MuMo)
3)by trying this callenge you may improve as a player

PS

Alphabetical order so you cant choose the harder backgrounds first(to make your streak easier) and because I like order.

Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 13th September 2016, 11:14

Re: Dg challenge

nicu wrote:tldr version
Dg challenge:streak Dg with backgrounds choosen in alphabetical order(AE,AM,Ar,...,Wn,Wr,Wz).
Every streak is a succes.So if you get this streak:DgAE,DgAM then you win the challenge(with 2 points).
Depending how good(and lucky) you are you can get between 2 and 21 points.

1)people who said Dg is easy are retarded
2)this is a fun challenge for good players(more fun than MuMo)
3)by trying this callenge you may improve as a player

PS

Alphabetical order so you cant choose the harder backgrounds first(to make your streak easier) and because I like order.


Okay but if I do this I'm doing in-game order (Fi, Gl, Mo, etc.) because I ain't got to time to sort no backgrounds alphebetically.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 13th September 2016, 12:40

Re: Dg challenge

Congrats with the streak, very impressive!

But...
1) Dg is easy. Don't go for Fire Storm without gods, DgFE is better as hybrid. Also getting Fire Storm does not prove a species is easy, DE are easy but Tr/Mi/Ce are very hard by this metrics. Actually Dg should be hybrid in every game, that's what its high stats are calling for.
2) Streaking is not fun for many (most?) players. At least it is not fun to me, it feels like a job, optimal play and paying attention all the time is too unfun.
3) There are more fun ways to prove you as player IMHO. Also personally I value winning hard combos in a few tries much more than streaking easy race but it is arguable of course.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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nago, vergil

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Tuesday, 13th September 2016, 13:24

Re: Dg challenge

So, a 300 hours of super-careful play to repeat your feat? Sure, a great challenge.

Also, your "reason 1" is not a reason to do that, since it makes no sense. Streaks don't prove anything in general, and trolls gonna troll anyway. Neither is 2, since for most players it will be quite far from fun (whether it takes a "very good" player is debatable as well).

Lair Larrikin

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Post Tuesday, 13th September 2016, 17:11

Re: Dg challenge

Nobody is forcing you to do anything.
All that condescent tone,passive-agressivness and use of buzzwords..GOD DAMN IT :x :x :x
Why the defensive attitude?
If Dg is easy you'll have no problem to streak how many do you want.
If streaking is boring don't do it.
And for fuck sake don't take a phrase out of context and try to twist my words.
stickyfinger and VeryAngryFelid you suck balls :P

ManMan I thanked you because you reacted like a normal guy.
If you want to win the backgrounds in alphabetical order you can look in your score page.
Truth is I do it this way because that's how my brain work(everything must be in perfect order).

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 13th September 2016, 17:29

Re: Dg challenge

I don't see how you can win 24 out of 27 Dg and still keep saying that Dg is not easy and it is "fair challenge(moderate difficulty?)". I wonder what you think about HO (0 wins, all 6 HOFi died before XL 20). You are expert, right?
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Tuesday, 13th September 2016, 18:11

Re: Dg challenge

VeryAngryFelid wrote:I don't see how you can win 24 out of 27 Dg and still keep saying that Dg is not easy and it is "fair challenge(moderate difficulty?)". I wonder what you think about HO (0 wins, all 6 HOFi died before XL 20). You are expert, right?


Got you little felid :twisted:
Those were speed runs(turncount) attempts.Most of my splats are failled speed runs.(13 death with easy combos).
I bet you get confused by those easy combos splats.
And told you that I'm the only guy who don't consider himself an expert at this game

I send you a reply to your private message,read it and let's calm down.
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Wednesday, 14th September 2016, 00:01

Re: Dg challenge

Actually, I would really appreciate that if someone was spectating my games and teaching me how to streak.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 14th September 2016, 00:08

Re: Dg challenge

BabyRage wrote:Actually, I would really appreciate that if someone was spectating my games and teaching me how to streak.


It is more efficient to spectate other players IMHO.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=20384
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 14th September 2016, 01:11

Re: Dg challenge

One day Tavern's going to get its own version of "man door hook hand car door", and it's going to be in The Dart Board

Swamp Slogger

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Post Monday, 19th September 2016, 00:21

Re: Dg challenge

BabyRage wrote:Actually, I would really appreciate that if someone was spectating my games and teaching me how to streak.


How to streak: stairdance and pillardance furiously. Reset all fights at first sign of danger. Manage your LOS (a bit obvious, but especially important when trying to streak). Enjoy the tedium. ;)

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 19th September 2016, 00:34

Re: Dg challenge

Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 29th September 2016, 08:28

Re: Dg challenge

Well, I tried the challenge but got only one win! That means Demigods are at least 4 times as hard as Nagas, I guess.

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Post Monday, 10th October 2016, 10:31

Re: Dg challenge

I thought you were joking, but you actually completed this challenge yourself. Could you please share with us what is the most difficult thing when streaking a Dg? What is your secret? What is your training program? What proteins you buy?
"Damned, damned be the legions of the damned..."

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Post Monday, 10th October 2016, 14:51

Re: Dg challenge

I've seen your streak and my first thought wasn't "That's impressive" but "WTF???" :D

To those who think/write/say that DG is easy:
DG is a bit easier before you would have gotten * or ** with a god of your choice.
Then DG becomes harder than almost any other combo because there are no god abilities and most of them are very useful.
Especially since you can choose the god you like.

Long term DG can become easier again. The stat boost helps with any background becoming a good mage....for extended.
But this streak wasn't for 15 runes.
It was a streak without going for extended, so again: The part where DG would become a bit easier (extended when going for level-9 spells) didn't exist here.
Almost any other combo would have a useful/powerful god there.

So:
congrats !
Impressed !
WTF??? :)
Last edited by Nebukadnezar on Monday, 10th October 2016, 16:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 10th October 2016, 14:56

Re: Dg challenge

Nebukadnezar wrote:DG is a bit easier before you would have gotten * or ** with a god of your choice.


I am not sure. There are literally 3 temple gods with great abilities at * and **: Trog, Fedhas and Okawaru and I don't think many players join those with magic backgrounds. DgWz and alike stay more powerful than HuWz and alike during the whole game IMHO.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Post Monday, 10th October 2016, 15:09

Re: Dg challenge

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
Nebukadnezar wrote:DG is a bit easier before you would have gotten * or ** with a god of your choice.


I am not sure. There are literally 3 temple gods with useful abilities at * and **: Trog, Fedhas and Okawaru and I don't think many players join those with magic backgrounds. DgWz and alike stay more powerful than HuWz and alike during the whole game IMHO.


ZIN gives
- recite at *
- vitalization at **. That's poison resist including curare, protection from confusion, etc. .

Check what Ashenzari gives at 0, *, **

etc.

These are very powerful abilities at low level.
It just doesn't show on the stats.

EDIT:
Consider also how long it takes to get * or **.
DG have a slightly easier (very) early game.
If this is where you measure difficulty: I don't think anyone denied that DG is stronger than most combos played without a god (= very early game)

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 10th October 2016, 15:34

Re: Dg challenge

Nebukadnezar wrote:ZIN gives
- recite at *
- vitalization at **. That's poison resist including curare, protection from confusion, etc. .

Check what Ashenzari gives at 0, *, **

etc.

These are very powerful abilities at low level.
It just doesn't show on the stats.


Recite is almost useless with 0 Invo and low piety. Good point about vitalization, I underuse this ability indeed. Still I wouldn't call Zin a good god for magic background, DgWz is stronger than HuWz of Zin at * or **.

Ashenzari is a weak god. When I reach * with it, I am already in Lair. I haven't played Ashenzari in 0.18, but I assume that Detect Monsters is still almost useless at low peity.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Post Monday, 10th October 2016, 16:08

Re: Dg challenge

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Ashenzari is a weak god. When I reach * with it, I am already in Lair. I haven't played Ashenzari in 0.18, but I assume that Detect Monsters is still almost useless at low peity.

Detect monster is almost useless in almost any case but when you need it it becomes invaluable.
I've been abyssed with Ash and suddenly it allowed me to avoid fights without getting seen.
This is one of the situations where a streak could end.
A DG gets....nothing ?
A few points of stat ?

In my understanding the point of streaking is not dying.
You don't die in a situation you control.
There a DG can be stronger.
But when a situation becomes out of control (like: getting hit by curare, confused, abyssed, etc.) a DG has nothing to show while every other combo has some kind of a panic button.
I'm not saying that every combo has a panic button for *every* situation :)
Ash: detect monster when fleeing is invaluable. It doesn't really matter that it comes late (lair)
Zin: vitalization is seldom used unitl one invests into invo but in many situations it can be a live saver (if used before you are confused)

You are right that in many cases the stat increase of DG will give this combo a power increase of ...like 3% or even 5% ?
By hitting slightly harder.
It doesn't matter imo.
You don't *need* that to survive.

DG has nothing to show for when a battle which was suspected to be linear evolves into something which gets out of control.
Usually these are the situations that kill my chars.
This is what makes DG hard imo.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 10th October 2016, 17:01

Re: Dg challenge

Dg have 10% more HP and 33% more MR. Higher Dex means higher Stealth/EV, higher Str means higher melee/ranged damage, higher Int means higher spell power and lower failure rate.
Troll does not have any of this and is still considered very powerful even if played godless.
I agree that being able to join Lugonu in Abyss is useful.
Dg is better than Ha, Ko, Mu, Op, Hu, DE, Na, Vp IMHO.
Anyway I think we have different opinions because we have different play styles, I can play very slowly and carefully, Vehumet is my favorite god for magic backgrounds(because it is the most powerful god for me in the long run and I don't need any help before entering Orc)
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Spider Stomper

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Post Monday, 10th October 2016, 17:32

Re: Dg challenge

Noone denies that DG have higher stats.
Hp helps, of course.
Mr less so because we are not talking about improving your % in a single encounter but over a streak where the thread starter had to make 1000s of decisions whether he faces someone who can hex him.
A % of 2% or 20% isn't important here : anything >0% means risking the streak.
He never died :)
So he has much more to offer than just relying on stats.

Check my stats/winrates (link in my sig)
I can claim to play very slow/carefully, too :)

This topic isn't about the best god for a mage background but playing a streak *without* a god.
Imo achieving a streak of ... 21 wins ? ... is: wtf??? :)
Doesn't even matter which combo.
Doing so without your favoured god (each player has a set of gods which suit his play stile) is even better imo.

Both of us can claim to play slow/carefully day in/day out but the thread starter could make a better claim :D

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 10th October 2016, 17:37

Re: Dg challenge

I am not claiming that I play very slowly, I am claiming I can play very slowly, that's a different matter.
I am not questioning that the streak is great, I am questioning that Dg is hard. Basically I am saying that it is harder to win 21 Hu than 21 Dg and nobody is saying that Hu is a hard race
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Monday, 10th October 2016, 22:46

Re: Dg challenge

kuniqs wrote:I thought you were joking, but you actually completed this challenge yourself. Could you please share with us what is the most difficult thing when streaking a Dg? What is your secret? What is your training program? What proteins you buy?


I'm a serious guy and allways achieve what I'm puting in my mind.The most difficult part is the one betwen the start of the game and late game(altmost all game) :)
There's not much interest in this challenge so I won't go into details(I will spectate and advice people who have the balls to try it).
In the time from my last win I've been busy with Angband and Sil;I'm close to win them both so I'll come back soon :mrgreen:
You can use the morgue files to see what weapons,armours,spells I use,how I skill, etc.
This method may be limited and lead to missunderstandings so the guys who saw me doing this live are the lucky ones.
I eat only high quality proteins:chickens from the market and have my own wine(I'm from Romania).I mean real eco-bio not the over priced stuff you buy from supermarkets.
Spoiler: show
I know you are joking with that question



Nebukadenezar you understood perfectly the difficulty of this streak.VeryAngryFelid hate me;he sent me some very weird messages("I'm a bad player","winning doesn't count",etc.).I don't know why he hates me and I don't care.Just ignore him.
Tbh I feel insulted by all those people who said that all you need for a streak like this is boring,tedious,super carefully play and Dg is easy.
My initial goal for this thread was to deconstruct this streak and help other people improve.
After the reactions I got I don't feel like doing this.
If people think pillar dancing :lol: :lol: stair dancing and super carefully play is enough to net you a +20 streak good for them.

I won't post in this thread anymore.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 11th October 2016, 00:30

Re: Dg challenge

nicu wrote:VeryAngryFelid hate me;he sent me some very weird messages("I'm a bad player","winning doesn't count",etc.).I don't know why he hates me and I don't care.Just ignore him.


Nice, this is what I got for trying to point at your mistakes in PM instead of this thread. I can repeat it again, you are a bad player who is unable to recognize/accept strategic mistakes in skill training and yes, it proves that Dg is not that hard if you can play that badly and still win.

Edit. Just a single example. DgMo, training before XL 7 is awful.
http://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/Ni ... 151914.txt
  Code:
Skill      XL: |  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 |
---------------+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Unarmed Combat |     4        5                                                             |  5.5
Fighting       |     3           4     5  6     7     8 10 11 12 14 15 16 17 18 19 20    22 | 22.1
Dodging        |        3           4  5     6  8 10    11 13 14 15    16 17 18    19 20 21 | 21.8
Shields        |        1  2     3                                                          |  3.5
Armour         |              1        3        5  7 10    12 13 14 16 17 18    19 20 21 22 | 22.1

Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 | 22-24 | 25-27 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Unarmed           |   135 |   206 |   123 |       |       |       |       |       |       ||   464
       Kick              |    45 |    67 |    85 |   233 |   203 |       |       |       |       ||   633
       Punch             |     1 |       |       |     1 |     1 |       |       |       |       ||     3
       Quarterstaff      |       |       |    95 |       |       |       |       |       |       ||    95

Armor: Robe              |     3 |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       ||     3
       Leather armour    |     7 |       |       |     5 |       |       |       |       |       ||    12
       Ring mail         |    12 |    49 |    64 |    36 |       |       |       |       |       ||   161
       Plate armour      |       |       |       |   195 |   773 |   768 |   973 |   943 |   196 ||  3848

Block: Buckler           |    10 |    64 |    35 |       |       |       |       |       |       ||   109

Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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