CSDC Week 10 - VpAE, CLOSED


Official tournaments, but also any competition, challenge of the week or other player initiative for competitive crawling.

Zot Zealot

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Post Friday, 28th March 2014, 23:42

CSDC Week 10 - VpAE, CLOSED

Please use this thread for discussion of all things pertaining to Week 10 of the Crawl Sudden Death Challenges competition.

Week 10: VpAE

Tier I Bonus: Kill at least one unique while in bat-form.
Tier II Bonus: All uniques killed must be killed while in bat-form (minimum three uniques killed).


NOTE: Unless otherwise specified, you do not need to win the game to get points for the bonus challenges.

CSDC Season 1 Results and Standings

Week 10 Challenge Wins
Spoiler: show
None so far!
Last edited by WalkerBoh on Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 02:45, edited 2 times in total.

Zot Zealot

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Post Friday, 28th March 2014, 23:46

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

A note about the bonuses: for the purposes of this challenge, you do not need to be the one to kill the unique. As long as you are in bat-form on the turn when the unique dies, the kill counts. For instance, if you enslave Pikel's slaves and then run around in bat-form while they kill Pikel, that counts.

For the Tier II bonus, this doesn't mean you need to kill EVERY unique. But for the ones you kill, you must kill them in bat-form. Banishment does NOT count as a kill (and might be a clever way of avoiding uniques).

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 28th March 2014, 23:49

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

So if I kill a unique in bat form and then quit the game, I will get 3 points for tier II bonus, right?

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Post Friday, 28th March 2014, 23:51

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

You're right, let's increase the minimum to 3. :)

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Post Saturday, 29th March 2014, 00:56

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

None shall ever trump mudo.

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Saturday, 29th March 2014, 02:58

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

dangit, was really hoping to avoid a vampire during the tourney ... anyone have a quick explanation on how to play one? If I recall, it's food micromanagey again, like you have to perform a ritual over corpses to turn them into vials of blood, and consume them to get certain abilities, but if you starve yourself of blood, you enter some alternative state that is maybe sometimes beneficial, but ... aw geez... I dunno!! HELP!

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Post Saturday, 29th March 2014, 02:59

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

Barkeep

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Post Saturday, 29th March 2014, 04:49

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

Sandman25 wrote:http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Vampire


Normally I'd just say Wiki, grain of salt, etc....

But I'm in the process of trying to edit the wiki pages for species and this one remains one of the outstanding, really problematic ones.

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Post Saturday, 29th March 2014, 05:06

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

Moose, basically for vampires you gain resistances (rPois, rN, rTorm) and reduce hunger cost as you become more bloodless. Also increased stealth. In return, your regeneration rate slows. To drink blood, you either bottle it into a potion (mechanically similar to storing chunks) or eat corpses (with the command 'e').

The easiest way to play vampires is to always stay satiated and play like a human with different apts. But the benefits of being bloodless, especially no spell hunger cost for AE, are pretty strong. It does take a bit of getting used to. But Makhleb is a strong god since you can keep regen'ing hp without moving out of the bloodless zone.

Barkeep

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Post Saturday, 29th March 2014, 05:19

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

Because of this challenge lighting a bit of a fire under my butt (and I have a bit of time as I'm keeping in while my wife studies here at home tonight) I did a fairly quick, but hopefully pretty thorough, edit of the vampire wiki page. Not saying it is great, but I think misleading info is for the most part gone. Anyone who catches anything I missed or disagrees with whatever, let me know. I've played (and won) vampires but they are far from my favorite species.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 29th March 2014, 13:48

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

and into wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Vampire


Normally I'd just say Wiki, grain of salt, etc....

But I'm in the process of trying to edit the wiki pages for species and this one remains one of the outstanding, really problematic ones.


Well, this is the only source of information which I used for my single Vp win. So it is not as bad as one might think.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 29th March 2014, 14:14

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

and into wrote:Because of this challenge lighting a bit of a fire under my butt (and I have a bit of time as I'm keeping in while my wife studies here at home tonight) I did a fairly quick, but hopefully pretty thorough, edit of the vampire wiki page. Not saying it is great, but I think misleading info is for the most part gone. Anyone who catches anything I missed or disagrees with whatever, let me know. I've played (and won) vampires but they are far from my favorite species.


Sorry, maybe it is caused by my bad English but I don't like some of your edits, I believe

"Not having a real [[food clock]] allows you to play cautiously or abuse powerful spells without fear of starvation"

is better than

"The Vampire's fiddly [[food clock]] makes them somewhat less straightforward than most species."

and

"Used wisely, your adjustable undead nature can give you a wide variety of crucial immunities as you need them; used poorly, you end up unable to heal and get eaten by [[yak]]s. Early on you'll likely want to keep your levels high enough to maintain your faster-than-average HP regeneration, dipping into Thirsty for [[poison resistance]] and the boost to Stealth as needed. Depending on your skill selection and the branches you explore, you may find these undead advantages become more and more desirable the deeper you get. A Bloodless vampire is one of the stealthiest characters possible, letting you stab your way through most challenges. [[The Lair]] is much easier when you're poison resistant and stealthy, and provides significant [[XP]] and loot early on. "

is better than

"Exactly how to use your variable hunger states will depend on a number of things. At Thirsty and Near Bloodless you suffer slow regeneration (bad) and halved potion strength (worse) in exchange for Bat Form (good), stealth (depends), and some resistances (helpful but mostly unnecessary). Usually keeping around Thirsty for bat form is a good place to be, and gives option to quaff a bottle of blood to push you into satiated for full strength potions. Near Bloodless or Bloodless have stronger drawbacks, but may be worth the trade off once your character is established, depending on your build and where you are in the game."

Sar

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Post Saturday, 29th March 2014, 14:21

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

The obvious flaw I can see is that it places too much importance on rPois, which is barely relevant at this point in the game.

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Post Saturday, 29th March 2014, 14:25

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

Sar wrote:The obvious flaw I can see is that it places too much importance on rPois, which is barely relevant at this point in the game.


What do you mean? I love species with rPois early game when adders and worker ants are very dangerous. It's very useful in Lair also, at least for melee characters.

Sar

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Post Saturday, 29th March 2014, 14:27

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

I mean that rPois is nice for adders and maybe early working ants. In Lair it's not really relevant and you should probably consider other things.

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Post Saturday, 29th March 2014, 14:32

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

Sar wrote:I mean that rPois is nice for adders and maybe early working ants. In Lair it's not really relevant and you should probably consider other things.


Sorry, I still don't understand. Do you suggest to be at satiated or higher for increased regeneration? I suspect thirsty (and below_ Vp will have higher chance to survive Black Mamba and Spiny Frog, these are the most dangerous monsters you cannot easily escape as Bat. Also I find new wiki weird in suggesting to be at thirsty for getting blood and then full effect of potions. Do we really want to spend 2 turns quaffing blood and then heal wounds? This means that the monster is not that dangerous IMHO.

Sar

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Post Saturday, 29th March 2014, 14:35

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

I only won two Vp and I don't really know anything about their food minigame. I just don't like placing emphasis on rPois past early game (people refusing to do Spider because they "lack rPois" really grinds my gears).
Spinies and mambas kill you because they're fast and hit like trucks, really. They're still a huge threat even with rPois.

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Post Saturday, 29th March 2014, 14:42

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

Sar wrote:I only won two Vp and I don't really know anything about their food minigame. I just don't like placing emphasis on rPois past early game (people refusing to do Spider because they "lack rPois" really grinds my gears).
Spinies and mambas kill you because they're fast and hit like trucks, really. They're still a huge threat even with rPois.


Yes, I am one of those players who avoid Spider without rPois unless I have no choice, that's because I am learning from previous games where I almost died because of no rPois with relatively powerful character.
Exactly, that's why rPois is very good, it improves your chance to survive fights with spinies and mambas: spending a turn to cure poison can kill character, retreating while poisoned can kill character. I am not sure why we are arguing, I know that you know that rPois is good in Lair.

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Post Saturday, 29th March 2014, 14:45

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

Even red poison will do what, 10 HP damage per average fight with spiny/mamba? I don't know, if that amount matters you probably should not fight one of those things. Honestly, I think rPois is overrated.
The one place I used to really like rPois was Zot because stupid gold dragons breathe those clouds that interrupt my tabbing just let me win already god damn it.

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Post Saturday, 29th March 2014, 15:25

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

Sar wrote:Even red poison will do what, 10 HP damage per average fight with spiny/mamba? I don't know, if that amount matters you probably should not fight one of those things. Honestly, I think rPois is overrated.
The one place I used to really like rPois was Zot because stupid gold dragons breathe those clouds that interrupt my tabbing just let me win already god damn it.


I am not saying that it's impossible to clear Lair without rPois, I did it many times too. All I am saying is that it's better to be at Thirsty or below in Lair than at Satiated because rPois is better than increased regeneration especially since you can easily quaff a potion of blood if really needed to get the regeneration but you cannot easily get to thirsty in the middle of some fight.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 29th March 2014, 15:56

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

imo getting full hp from quaffing heal wounds is better than getting half hp from quaffing heal wounds

Shoals Surfer

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Post Saturday, 29th March 2014, 15:59

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

I prefer the new paragraph. It is briefer and more specific on the details of the vampire's various states. Consequently, I am more likely to experiment with those states (assuming I even get to this one; I still haven't finished my DEVM and that challenge has closed!).

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Post Saturday, 29th March 2014, 16:12

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

duvessa wrote:imo getting full hp from quaffing heal wounds is better than getting half hp from quaffing heal wounds


IMHO not quaffing heal wounds in Lair is better than quaffing heal wounds in Lair.

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Post Saturday, 29th March 2014, 16:14

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

Moanerette wrote:I prefer the new paragraph. It is briefer and more specific on the details of the vampire's various states. Consequently, I am more likely to experiment with those states (assuming I even get to this one; I still haven't finished my DEVM and that challenge has closed!).


My understanding is that wiki articles are supposed to describe something, not to encourage experimenting to learn everything on your own.

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Post Saturday, 29th March 2014, 16:30

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

Well as I said it was a first pass, I'll revisit and maybe add a bit more detail.

The "difficulty of play" section is, or should be, about how straightforward/easy they are for people relatively new to the game. Vampires aren't a challenge species but new players find ways to overthink and overcomplicate even species with normal food clocks, so describing Vp as being "fiddly" when it comes to food is fair,
IMO. There are ways to take advantage of their food clock but building characters around that sort of exploitation is something new players can experiment with if they like, but it is not something that they should be encouraged to think is the sine qua non of playing vampires.

rPois is nice primarily for cutting down the damage that poison arrow and venom bolt cause on hit. Stopping the poison status 90% of the time is mostly a convenience. I think "helpful but largely unnecessary" is a good way to describe rPois, rN+++, and torment immunity in a "standard" (three rune) game.

As for the Lair: Mambas and spiny frogs are dangerous mostly for the same reason blink frogs are, they are fast and hit hard, particularly if you haven't managed to get your AC up (blink frogs come in packs which can make them more dangerous, plus they have fairly high—more so than you'd perhaps expect—MR; on other hand they lack rPois so sometimes you can exploit that). Unless you literally have no useful potions, in what realistic scenarios would your character be safer saving 8 or so HP of meaningful poison damage (suffered in the course of a fight) at the expense of half-powered potions?


EDIT:

Wiki articles should provide helpful information and guidance. Most of them go on in excruciating detail (including lots of stuff that is outdated/wrong/unnecessary) about exactly one way to play a species/background/whatever. The narrowness is bad enough but more often than not the one way it goes into such depths to describe is not actually a particularly reasonable or good way to play. A guide that is geared toward new players, most of whom are struggling to get their first win, probably shouldn't trump up the importance of torment immunity and the like, nor dramatically overstate the importance of rPois in Lair. New players generally need to use stuff like !might and !speed and !hw to survive (the last one especially, as new players are still learning that proactive damage prevention/avoidance >> direct healing in DCSS, with only a few exceptions) so telling them to take half power on necessary survival tools in order to get rPois is remarkably bad advice.

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Post Saturday, 29th March 2014, 16:40

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

I was trying to say that rPois makes me less likely to quaff a potion of HW. At least this is my experience which again seems to be non-typical :(

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Post Saturday, 29th March 2014, 18:53

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

Too bad we cannot see remaining HP of monsters. I attacked Terence with whip of venom, I was going to transform into bat next turn but he died to poison too fast. So no tier II again :(

Mines Malingerer

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Post Saturday, 29th March 2014, 19:31

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

I love Jessica! She gracefully perished while I was in bat form, gave me a +1 robe of fire resistance, and a +0, +2 dagger of elec. After that she even slaked my thirst a bit. Pretty sure I'll die soon :)

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Saturday, 29th March 2014, 19:33

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

How does the bonus work with Natasha? Each kill counts, or just the final one?

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Post Saturday, 29th March 2014, 19:41

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

I would think once per Unique name. Boris probably could be considered as well since you can't get rid of him ( well I guess by clearing all places he can spawn).

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Post Saturday, 29th March 2014, 21:16

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

This is why rPois is good:

The yellow wasp is struck by lightning.
The yellow wasp is heavily wounded.
The lightning arcs! You are struck by lightning. The lightning grounds out.
The yellow wasp stings you.
You are poisoned.
You feel yourself slow down.

Damage: -8%(-5hp) hp: 92%(52hp)
Read which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Casting: Static Discharge
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
The yellow wasp is struck by lightning.
The yellow wasp is severely wounded.
The lightning arcs! You are struck by lightning. The lightning arcs!
The yellow wasp is struck by lightning.
You kill the yellow wasp!
The lightning grounds out.
You are feeling thirsty.
You feel yourself speed up.


I was too excited after joining Kiku and forgot to stay in Temple long enough to become thirsty. But fortunately I had spell hunger from level 3 spell.

Shoals Surfer

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Post Saturday, 29th March 2014, 23:59

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

Nice combo, fearitself. I was not so clever. I wielded another distortion dagger. Going to keep it a while this time.

I like rPois in most branches and will typically learn cure poison.

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Post Sunday, 30th March 2014, 00:11

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

Good thing wasps and PArrow users are not normal Lair spawns then!

Mines Malingerer

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Post Sunday, 30th March 2014, 02:10

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

Bah, killed first 3 uniques in bat form but Gastronok got me with Airstrike and I was scared into human form. Kinda glad because now I can just play :)

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 30th March 2014, 02:17

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

Why did you try to kill Gastronok? Had nowhere to run?

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Post Sunday, 30th March 2014, 03:50

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

That's a great question! I could say that he was right at entrance to Lair but the real truth is that I can't help myself. Unless I am very worried about a Unique ( Mara, couple others) I try. Of course, I don't win many games. Correlation?

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Post Sunday, 30th March 2014, 04:15

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

Well, there is nothing wrong with trying to kill Gastronok, though lately I prefer to do it on way back from Lair 8. But for this round my intention was to kill 3 uniques and then avoid the rest, that's why I asked.

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Post Sunday, 30th March 2014, 13:06

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

And I'm out. As a long time player, I am having a very hard time adjusting to these new Rakshasha. I don't like them, to be honest. I'm not sure what the goal is to make everything so damn deadly. Not only can you get a barrage of deadly IMBs but they multiply other creatures as well.

I was getting low on health and probably should have fled, but had what appeared to be the only Rak down to a sliver of health and had enough health to make it worth the gamble and tried to finish it off. Of course, just then a friend came around the corner unexpectedly and two IMBs finished me off.

Anyway, thanks WalkerBoh for the contest! I enjoyed participating quite a bit and look forward to the next one.

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Post Sunday, 30th March 2014, 13:47

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

And I'm also out. Tengu reavers are tough guys and I definitely should not have challenged one at 15 lvl. Nevertheless I am happy - this streak was becoming more exhausting than enjoyable.

Thank you, WalkerBoh, for organizing CSDC. It was a lot of fun :)

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Post Sunday, 30th March 2014, 14:52

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

Bart wrote:And I'm also out. Tengu reavers are tough guys and I definitely should not have challenged one at 15 lvl. Nevertheless I am happy - this streak was becoming more exhausting than enjoyable.

Thank you, WalkerBoh, for organizing CSDC. It was a lot of fun :)


Congratulations anyway, you have won the tournament by a mile...

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Post Sunday, 30th March 2014, 21:31

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

Ran from a player ghost into a bailey, ran into another player ghost in the bailey, fled from it out of the bailey, back into player ghost 1 (who was a spriggan with a distortion weapon, btw). Probably shouldn't have left ghost #1 following me near the bailey entrance. Ah well. The bailey itself was very easy, but the ghosts...ouch.

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Post Sunday, 30th March 2014, 21:35

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

Bart wrote:And I'm also out. Tengu reavers are tough guys and I definitely should not have challenged one at 15 lvl. Nevertheless I am happy - this streak was becoming more exhausting than enjoyable.


Yeah, I think the structure of the tournament promotes a certain amount of burnout at the high end. I haven't figured out a clear cut way to change it, but banging out a 15 runer a week does get a little tiresome. I skipped TeSk just because I didn't really have time to do all of them, and the MfFi splat had a lot to do with "I just want to get this over with."

Thanks a ton to WalkerBoh for all the effort put into running it, and good work Bart on winning.

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Post Sunday, 30th March 2014, 21:56

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

I thought we would have second stage of tournament but it looks like 0.14 tournament makes it a bad idea and Bart would win it anyway :)
Thank you, WalkerBoh, it was a great tournament!
It was very useful and pleasant to talk to other participants!

My VpAE is still alive but there is little sense to continue playing it, though it is an unusual character, Kiku didn't give me Bolt of Draining so I am a hybrid with dagger of pain and occasional Lightning Bolt. But I expect it to die soon, no source of MR is really bad in Orcish Mines and I don't have Venom/Draining bolts (or even wand of draining) to kill sorcerers safely. Though maybe I will learn Mephitic Cloud soon.

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Post Sunday, 30th March 2014, 22:02

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

Sandman25 wrote:I thought we would have second stage of tournament but it looks like 0.14 tournament makes it a bad idea and Bart would win it anyway

Well originally I was planning on having a 1-week playoff after the 10th week. But I decided against it, and with the 0.14 tournament coming right after this ends, it seems like the best idea.

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Post Sunday, 30th March 2014, 23:03

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

WalkerBoh wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:I thought we would have second stage of tournament but it looks like 0.14 tournament makes it a bad idea and Bart would win it anyway

Well originally I was planning on having a 1-week playoff after the 10th week. But I decided against it, and with the 0.14 tournament coming right after this ends, it seems like the best idea.


If I knew it in advance, I would go for more 15 rune wins, instead I tried to guarantee 3rd place in my division. Yet 10 weeks is a lot indeed, I got tired a bit and I suspect it was hell for you to process so many games. Thank you again! Looking forward to next season :)

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Post Monday, 31st March 2014, 00:12

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

stickyfingers wrote:How does the bonus work with Natasha? Each kill counts, or just the final one?

Sorry for not answering this sooner. Every kill counts.

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Post Monday, 31st March 2014, 03:10

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

Well, I learned something new from my death. Jorgrun used Shatter, I lost 37 HP while not flying (got mandatory autosave but didn't take my time to read the text carefully, of course I supposed that the damage was caused by Shatter). I transformed into bat and lost 80 HP while flying. It looks like "blast of bone shards" means that I get damaged not by Shatter but by dead allied skeletons. Killed by bad English and reticent crawl which does not display how many HP I lost to Shatter and how many HP I lost to "bone shards". At least now I can return to offline, online is too slow because of lags.

http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Sandman25/m ... 025802.txt

Edit. Does "blast of bone shards" ignore EV?

Dungeon Master

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Post Monday, 31st March 2014, 03:18

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

Blast of bone shards is LRD, so yeah, it can't be dodged.

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Post Monday, 31st March 2014, 03:34

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

wheals wrote:Blast of bone shards is LRD, so yeah, it can't be dodged.


Oops, I have just realized that Jorgrun didn't cast Shatter. Message log says "Your eight-headed hydra skeleton shatters!" but previous line "Jorgrun casts a spell at your eight-headed hydra skeleton." makes it clear that the spell was LRD.
It means my fault only, I should have read the log more carefully before loading the game. Or alternatively I should have looked into dictionary to learn what "shatter" is, again my fault only

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Post Monday, 31st March 2014, 10:48

Re: CSDC Week 10 - VpAE

Bart wrote:And I'm also out. Tengu reavers are tough guys and I definitely should not have challenged one at 15 lvl. Nevertheless I am happy - this streak was becoming more exhausting than enjoyable.

Thank you, WalkerBoh, for organizing CSDC. It was a lot of fun :)


Congratulations, Bart! 5 game win streak and 7/10 wins overall in sudden death is stunning. Streaks always boggle me because there are so many chances to make bad decisions and all it takes is one typo or a tiny bit of bad luck to ruin it all.
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