Come judge my first vault, also questions about vault making


If you are interested in helping with tiles, vaults, patches or documentation, this is the place for that.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 89

Joined: Thursday, 30th May 2013, 18:35

Post Tuesday, 4th June 2013, 05:24

Come judge my first vault, also questions about vault making

Thank you for all the help I've gotten here already, by the way. I feel sort of weird spamming so many new topics when I'm so new around here.

This is still a work in progress. I'm posting it here mostly so that if anyone wants to they can critique it. I want this vault to be challenging, but not unfairly murderous. I can take out halflings one at a time on floor 1 with a human wizard or fighter without too much trouble, but they can get lucky and appear in swarms of slingy death so that probably needs fixing. Other things probably also need fixing that I'm not aware of.

The vault has two main parts: killing the endless hordes of ranged hobbits, followed by getting ambushed by a group of dwarves and their wizard buddy. The hallways are all two tiles wide, which help keep the player from getting cornered as a mage or from finding a good hallway to fight monsters individually as a fighter. Since most of the monsters have slings, this may make this vault a little too deadly as it currently is. The player will hopefully see and run towards the escape hatch in the back if the ambush is too strong to beat.

Stuff left to do: I need to add more room vaults, and the ones I have are all a bit boring now and could use spicing up. I also would like to have a few other versions of the map that could spawn, at the very least add an undead themed version and an orc invasion themed version. The current loot in the vault, beyond a guaranteed ring of invisibility and a mostly unhelpful short sword of orc slaying, is food and far too much of it. This will hopefully be solved as other treasure vaults are added to water down the food ones. I'd also like to add a garden to this. although I have no idea if it's a good idea to make giant, sprawling vaults that aren't branch ends.

hobbiton.txt
(7.73 KiB) Downloaded 111 times
Last edited by KennySheep on Thursday, 6th June 2013, 02:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Posts: 1888

Joined: Saturday, 9th July 2011, 20:57

Post Tuesday, 4th June 2013, 09:00

Re: Come judge my first vault

KennySheep wrote:Thank you for all the help I've gotten here already, by the way. I feel sort of weird spamming so many new topics when I'm so new around here.

This is still a work in progress. I'm posting it here mostly so that if anyone wants to they can critique it. I want this vault to be challenging, but not unfairly murderous. I can take out halflings one at a time on floor 1 with a human wizard or fighter without too much trouble, but they can get lucky and appear in swarms of slingy death so that probably needs fixing. Other things probably also need fixing that I'm not aware of.

The vault has two main parts: killing the endless hordes of ranged hobbits, followed by getting ambushed by a group of dwarves and their wizard buddy. The hallways are all two tiles wide, which help keep the player from getting cornered as a mage or from finding a good hallway to fight monsters individually as a fighter. Since most of the monsters have slings, this may make this vault a little too deadly as it currently is. The player will hopefully see and run towards the escape hatch in the back if the ambush is too strong to beat.

Stuff left to do: I need to add more room vaults, and the ones I have are all a bit boring now and could use spicing up. I also would like to have a few other versions of the map that could spawn, at the very least add an undead themed version and an orc invasion themed version. The current loot in the vault, beyond a guaranteed ring of invisibility and a mostly unhelpful short sword of orc slaying, is food and far too much of it. This will hopefully be solved as other treasure vaults are added to water down the food ones. I'd also like to add a garden to this. although I have no idea if it's a good idea to make giant, sprawling vaults that aren't branch ends.

hobbiton.txt


Well, I haven't tried out the vault in play yet, so I can't speak to the challenge, but just from a cursory four-in-the-morning lookover, I can see that it's got a lot of unnecessary stuff. Extra lines (particularly the empty ones, see how many vaults in the game use empty lines outside of lua code), a lot of unnecessary lua coding, some general errors:

1) You can condense the multiple FTILE: (glyph) = floor_grass into just one line: FTILE: `pt = floor_grass ...Same with the long list of SUBST: when you could just do SUBST: GHIJKQRSTWV = .
2) It doesn't appear that you actually place a _ glyph to serve as the ambush lua trigger. (And, frankly, I'm not so sure you need lua to stage an ambush anyway; you could just put the dwarfs behind a runed door). Your message for the trigger also needs to be capitalized and punctuated.
3) Try to do something about the long lines: there's the \ symbol, or in lua commands you can break up a long string by writing "abcdefgh" as "abcde" .. "fgh".
4) Giving specific monsters specific items is considered kind of spoilery but if you do give Bilbo a guaranteed ring of invisibility it's probably best to pre-ID it with ident:all
5) I feel like you could replace most of the functionality of the initial_setup() function with some SHUFFLE: directives. Also, crawl.random2(2) will only ever return a 0 or 1 (random2() doesn't include its argument), meaning the if-else statement with rand in initial_setup() will never choose "boring".
6) The lua in garden_room could be replaced entirely with SHUFFLE: ab/ab/ba, or simply SHUFFLE: ab if you're not picky about keeping the one-in-three chance.
7) Condense fruit_storeroom and food_storeroom into a single vault with SHUFFLE: fF or SUBST: f : fF or perhaps more interestingly SUBST: f = fF
8) The WEIGHT: 1025 in dragon_cage is either a testing weight accidentally left in or a completely ridiculous actual weight. Either way, it should probably get trimmed down to like 5 or less.
9) Is there a particular reason for the specific gold count in KITEM: $ = gold q:27 (and you don't even use a $ glyph anywhere anyway). You also define FTILE: ' = floor_dirt but don't appear to use ' anywhere.
10) There are lines for lua_marker('2', tm) and lua_marker('3', tm) but it doesn't appear that the 2 or 3 glyphs are specified anywhere. Likewise, you have four MONS: statements for halfings but, again, the numbers other than 1 aren't used as glyphs anywhere.
11) Since you only use halflingString once, as an argument to e.kmons(), why not just put the string definition in the function call: e.kmons(". = halfling ; [bunch of equipment specifications that I'm not convinced are fully necessary but whatever] / nothing w:" .. weight)



I like the general idea of the vault but it really feels like you over-designed the heck out of it. (Still, it's more ambitious than my own first vault...)

For this message the author nicolae has received thanks:
KennySheep

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Post Tuesday, 4th June 2013, 15:18

Re: Come judge my first vault

Much better than the rubbish vaults I made. Even if this doesn't make it into crawl, I'm going to add it into my personal copy.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 89

Joined: Thursday, 30th May 2013, 18:35

Post Tuesday, 4th June 2013, 16:29

Re: Come judge my first vault

nicolae wrote:
Well, I haven't tried out the vault in play yet, so I can't speak to the challenge, but just from a cursory four-in-the-morning lookover, I can see that it's got a lot of unnecessary stuff. Extra lines (particularly the empty ones, see how many vaults in the game use empty lines outside of lua code), a lot of unnecessary lua coding, some general errors:

1) You can condense the multiple FTILE: (glyph) = floor_grass into just one line: FTILE: `pt = floor_grass ...Same with the long list of SUBST: when you could just do SUBST: GHIJKQRSTWV = .
2) It doesn't appear that you actually place a _ glyph to serve as the ambush lua trigger. (And, frankly, I'm not so sure you need lua to stage an ambush anyway; you could just put the dwarfs behind a runed door). Your message for the trigger also needs to be capitalized and punctuated.
3) Try to do something about the long lines: there's the \ symbol, or in lua commands you can break up a long string by writing "abcdefgh" as "abcde" .. "fgh".
4) Giving specific monsters specific items is considered kind of spoilery but if you do give Bilbo a guaranteed ring of invisibility it's probably best to pre-ID it with ident:all
5) I feel like you could replace most of the functionality of the initial_setup() function with some SHUFFLE: directives. Also, crawl.random2(2) will only ever return a 0 or 1 (random2() doesn't include its argument), meaning the if-else statement with rand in initial_setup() will never choose "boring".
6) The lua in garden_room could be replaced entirely with SHUFFLE: ab/ab/ba, or simply SHUFFLE: ab if you're not picky about keeping the one-in-three chance.
7) Condense fruit_storeroom and food_storeroom into a single vault with SHUFFLE: fF or SUBST: f : fF or perhaps more interestingly SUBST: f = fF
8) The WEIGHT: 1025 in dragon_cage is either a testing weight accidentally left in or a completely ridiculous actual weight. Either way, it should probably get trimmed down to like 5 or less.
9) Is there a particular reason for the specific gold count in KITEM: $ = gold q:27 (and you don't even use a $ glyph anywhere anyway). You also define FTILE: ' = floor_dirt but don't appear to use ' anywhere.
10) There are lines for lua_marker('2', tm) and lua_marker('3', tm) but it doesn't appear that the 2 or 3 glyphs are specified anywhere. Likewise, you have four MONS: statements for halfings but, again, the numbers other than 1 aren't used as glyphs anywhere.
11) Since you only use halflingString once, as an argument to e.kmons(), why not just put the string definition in the function call: e.kmons(". = halfling ; [bunch of equipment specifications that I'm not convinced are fully necessary but whatever] / nothing w:" .. weight)



I like the general idea of the vault but it really feels like you over-designed the heck out of it. (Still, it's more ambitious than my own first vault...)


For just a 4 in the morning look-over, this is really detailed. The unnecessary lua markers are leftovers from old code I forgot to remove. I have no excuse for the rest of your comments though, beyond being lazy at figuring out how to SUBST and SHUFFLE correctly and general human error. I'll be sure to clean this up before adding any more to it.

The hobbit equipment specification is so long just since I wanted them to start armed and armored, and by default they almost always don't. I guess that could potentially be changed to there just being a lot of slings that spawn in the vault for them to pick up, or something.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 89

Joined: Thursday, 30th May 2013, 18:35

Post Tuesday, 4th June 2013, 18:29

Re: Come judge my first vault

khalil wrote:Much better than the rubbish vaults I made. Even if this doesn't make it into crawl, I'm going to add it into my personal copy.


If you run into it in game, let me know how it goes!

Halls Hopper

Posts: 89

Joined: Thursday, 30th May 2013, 18:35

Post Thursday, 6th June 2013, 02:42

Re: Come judge my first vault, also questions about vault ma

I'm going to ask any questions I have about vault design here, to avoid cluttering up the board.

Here's an uninteresting map I made, as an example

  Code:
NAME:   sif_elven_temple
CHANCE: %50.0
ORIENT: float
TAGS:   no_item_gen no_pool_fixup no_monster_gen
TAGS:   temple_overflow_sif_muna uniq_altar_sif_muna
DEPTH:   D:10-15, Elf
KFEAT:  C = altar_sif_muna
KFEAT:   ' = floor
FTILE:   'TMC1234 = floor_hall
COLOUR: ' = blue
NSUBST:   T = *:TM
: if you.branch() ~= "Elf" then
   MONS:   deep elf mage, deep elf summoner, deep elf soldier
   NSUBST:   1 = 1:12
:else
   MONS:   deep elf sorcerer, deep elf demonologist, deep elf mage, deep elf summoner
   NSUBST:   1 = 1:12
   NSUBST:   3 = 1:34
: end
:test_setup(_G)
MAP
         xxxxx
       xxx'T'xxx
    xxxW.TCT'Wxxx
xxxWWW''1''WWWxxx
xwwWWWW3'3WWWWwwx
xwwwWWWWWWWWWwwwx
xwwwwWWWWWWWwwwwx
xwwwwWWWWWWWwwwwx
xwwwwWWWWWWWwwwwx
xwwwwWWWWWWWwwwwx
xwwwwWWWWWWWwwwwx
 wwwwWWWWWWWwwwwx
  wwwWWWWWWWwww
   wwWWWWWWWww
       @@@@@@@
ENDMAP


When I add the CHANCE tag, crawl complains that I have "no DEPTH, no PLACE and no selectable tag in 'minivaut'". I'm like 90% sure there's a depth tag in there. What am I doing wrong? If I put the chance tag after the depth tag, the error message changes to "unexpected PERC, expecting $end", which I find equally unhelpful.

EDIT: Now there's no error message, but otherwise nothing has changed and the vaults with 100% placement chance still don't place.

EDIT 2: And now the problem's inexplicably fixed, so I guess ignore this unless someone can explain why this error appeared and then solved itself. The only thing I can think of is that for a while I had a function meant to set the chance of every vault to 50%, with the call set up wrong. That function had been deleted when I posted all this. However, a while ago I had a function to set a glyph to be a yak band, which continued to set glyph that glyph to a yak band long after I had deleted the function and all calls to it. Maybe that was happening again?

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Post Thursday, 6th June 2013, 10:57

Re: Come judge my first vault, also questions about vault ma

I'm not sure why you put "%50.0" - it should just be "50%".

The other problem sound like it could be a cache problem, or maybe you just missed something, which is quite easy when you have a lot of Lua.

You can reset the cache by deleting "des" and "db" from your saves folder.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 89

Joined: Thursday, 30th May 2013, 18:35

Post Thursday, 6th June 2013, 16:45

Re: Come judge my first vault, also questions about vault ma

mumra wrote:I'm not sure why you put "%50.0" - it should just be "50%".

The other problem sound like it could be a cache problem, or maybe you just missed something, which is quite easy when you have a lot of Lua.

You can reset the cache by deleting "des" and "db" from your saves folder.


I guess I was writing my chance tag wrong all over then. That explains the unexpected PERC error.

I'll find out if this was a cache problem of just regular human error next time the game decides to ignore my depth tags, if that ever happens again.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 89

Joined: Thursday, 30th May 2013, 18:35

Post Friday, 7th June 2013, 15:21

Re: Come judge my first vault, also questions about vault ma

My map pack is coming along nicely now, here's the latest one.

  Code:
NAME:   the_castle
ORIENT: float
TAGS:   no_pool_fixup no_monster_gen no_item_gen
DEPTH:   D:25-26
MONS:   vault guard, vault sentinel, ironheart preserver, vault warden
KMONS:   D = dragon / storm dragon / ice dragon / swamp dragon / quicksilver dragon / pearl dragon / golden dragon
KMONS:   E = fire elemental / earth elemental / air elemental / water elemental
KMONS:   H = fire giant / minotaur / frost giant / titan
KMONS:   L = lich
KMONS:   l = ancient lich
KMONS:   M = mummy / guardian mummy
KMONS:   N = naga / greater naga / naga mage / guardian serpent
KMONS:   O = ogre / ogre mage / two-headed ogre
KMONS:   R = troll / deep troll / deep troll shaman
KMONS:   Z = zombie
SUBST:   t = EHLMNORZ
SUBST:   A = 1231
KITEM:   F = meat ration / bread ration
KITEM:   W = quick blade good_item / double sword good_item / triple sword good_item/\
            executioner's axe good_item / great mace good_item / giant spiked club good_item/\
            bardiche good_item / demon trident good_item / lajatang good_item/\
            longbow good_item / sling good_item / blowgun good_item / crossbow good_item
KITEM:   p = steam dragon armour good_item / mottled dragon armour good_item /\
            swamp dragon armour good_item / fire dragon armour good_item/\
            ice dragon armour good_item / storm dragon armour good_item
KITEM:   J = gold q:250
KITEM:   r = scroll of acquirement
NSUBST:   $ = 1:r
KFEAT:   _ = runed_door
MARKER: _ = lua:restrict_door()
KFEAT:   ^ = shaft trap
:test_setup(_G)
MAP
cccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc
@wwwwwwww...................................wwwwwwwwc
@wccccccwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwccccccwc
@wc4$A.ccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc.A$4cwc
@wc....+.....................................+....cwc
@wcccccccccccccccccccccccc+ccccccccccccccccccccccccwc
@wwwwwc..A.A..cAAAA.+t..t..t..t.cFFFFF_D_pppppcwwwwwc
@....wc.A...A.cAAAA.c.t..t..t..tcFFFFFcDcpppppcw....c
@....wc.......ccccccct..t..t..t.ccccccc+cccccccw....c
@....w+..4T..._....._.t..t..l..t_.^...^..^...^+.....c
@....wc.......ccccccct..t..t..t.ccccccc+cccccccw....c
@....wc.A...A.cAAAA.c.t..t..t..tcWWWWWcDcJJJJJcw....c
@wwwwwc..A.A..cAAAA.+t..t..t..t.cWWWWW_D_JJJJJcwwwwwc
@wcccccccccccccccccccccccc+ccccccccccccccccccccccccwc
@wc....+.....................................+....cwc
@wc4$A.ccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc.A$4cwc
@wcccccc.....................................ccccccwc
@wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwc
cccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc
ENDMAP


Questions: Is there a good way to put down a random large amount of gold? Is there any way to place any random type of armor, like you can for wands and weapons? Where in the source code are all of the arguments for _G.kmons() and _G.kitem() defined so I can look these things up on my own without asking?

As for the map, I'm thinking of making copies of some of nethack's other vaults and stringing them together into a sprint map, because this seems too deadly for a randomly placed vault.
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Post Saturday, 8th June 2013, 02:08

Re: Come judge my first vault, also questions about vault ma

  Code:
ITEM:    gold good_item
ITEM:    any armour


examples of lua in vaults themselves from examining http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git 's search function ("grep" choice for the source) is the easiest way to learn, alongside judicious use of the knowledge bots when appropiate. if you're going to be adding things to the game, it's crucial to know lots about it, though documentation in many ways could use more standards (I'm thinking of a simple FAQ for helping people get basic functionality down for select vault features but whatever).

while it can be nice practice to try and import/export vaults from other places, it's quite discouraged to use this sort of thing beyond minor homages. as an aside, it's extremely harrowing to make large projects that demand a lot of balance like a sprint, and I'd reccomend trying to practice raw vault design itself first, as boring as it can seem to be to use defaults like 0 9 8. eventually I should finish something else I was working on to try and better teach general design but whatever, practice is enough when one avoids pitfalls and regularly asks for help. the ways that monsters wander and follow, and the monsters one has to fight at once alongside line of fire/sight at principles of design much more important than getting used to using gimmicks, such as a breadth of half of the game thrown into one space (at least, when you're starting out).

as a further aside, there's already a nethack castle vault with a variety of adjustments as a zot entry vault, so another castle seems meh.

furthest aside: the shallow water with dangerous deep elves vault is either a dangerous autoexplore trap when you're in elf or a silly retreat-back-easily threat if the player has flight (shallow water by itself is crazy boring and should not be large blocks as such without better functions involved). also, since there was some un-commented-upon problems: NSUBST shouldn't replace just general SUBST use, overflow temples stop at D:9 so the tags for the sif altar are unnecessary, and space tabs for the headers within : blocks are usually skipped.

For this message the author claws has received thanks:
KennySheep

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Post Saturday, 8th June 2013, 04:37

Re: Come judge my first vault, also questions about vault ma

If there's too many castle vaults in the game, their combined weight can always be reduced (or even uniq_castle tag could be used).

To the original poster, I don't have the time to really put my mind to feedback right now, but I'm pretty impressed that your first vault has lua and subvaults employed!

--Eino

Halls Hopper

Posts: 89

Joined: Thursday, 30th May 2013, 18:35

Post Saturday, 8th June 2013, 06:43

Re: Come judge my first vault, also questions about vault ma

claws wrote:
  Code:
ITEM:    gold good_item
ITEM:    any armour


examples of lua in vaults themselves from examining http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git 's search function ("grep" choice for the source) is the easiest way to learn, alongside judicious use of the knowledge bots when appropiate. if you're going to be adding things to the game, it's crucial to know lots about it, though documentation in many ways could use more standards (I'm thinking of a simple FAQ for helping people get basic functionality down for select vault features but whatever).

while it can be nice practice to try and import/export vaults from other places, it's quite discouraged to use this sort of thing beyond minor homages. as an aside, it's extremely harrowing to make large projects that demand a lot of balance like a sprint, and I'd reccomend trying to practice raw vault design itself first, as boring as it can seem to be to use defaults like 0 9 8. eventually I should finish something else I was working on to try and better teach general design but whatever, practice is enough when one avoids pitfalls and regularly asks for help. the ways that monsters wander and follow, and the monsters one has to fight at once alongside line of fire/sight at principles of design much more important than getting used to using gimmicks, such as a breadth of half of the game thrown into one space (at least, when you're starting out).

as a further aside, there's already a nethack castle vault with a variety of adjustments as a zot entry vault, so another castle seems meh.


I've only been to zot a couple times, so I didn't know about that vault. I'm not that surprised someone already thought of that. If ripping off level design goes against crawl's goals I'll give up on that.

I'm fully aware building a sprint map is a massive undertaking. I just would have been more willing to do it in this case, since it would just be a map that cheats the player up to the max level and then rips level design off nethack, which sort of reduces the problem down to a giant data entry job.

claws wrote:furthest aside: the shallow water with dangerous deep elves vault is either a dangerous autoexplore trap when you're in elf or a silly retreat-back-easily threat if the player has flight (shallow water by itself is crazy boring and should not be large blocks as such without better functions involved).

That elf map is really stupid, I agree. It just happened to be the one I was working on when an error showed up, so it's what I posted. I have some better maps, I'm holding off on posting them here until I clear up a few remaining errors in them, so the mistakes that I know about don't distract people from correcting me on the stuff I have no idea I'm doing wrong...

claws wrote:also, since there was some un-commented-upon problems: NSUBST shouldn't replace just general SUBST use, overflow temples stop at D:9 so the tags for the sif altar are unnecessary, and space tabs for the headers within : blocks are usually skipped.


Such as things like this. Is NSUBST a more expensive operation than SUBST, or is this just a convention that I'm breaking?

Halls Hopper

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Post Saturday, 8th June 2013, 06:48

Re: Come judge my first vault, also questions about vault ma

evktalo wrote:If there's too many castle vaults in the game, their combined weight can always be reduced (or even uniq_castle tag could be used).

Nah, I agree with him. There's no reason to have two of this specific castle.

evktalo wrote:To the original poster, I don't have the time to really put my mind to feedback right now, but I'm pretty impressed that your first vault has lua and subvaults employed!

--Eino


It was sort of over-designed to test out what all I could do. I haven't found many good uses for either of them in my subsequent vaults.

Halls Hopper

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Joined: Thursday, 30th May 2013, 18:35

Post Wednesday, 12th June 2013, 18:48

Re: Come judge my first vault, also questions about vault ma

Here's my progress at vaulting, in case anyone was curious.
Attachments
vaults.txt
(14.6 KiB) Downloaded 13 times

Halls Hopper

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Post Friday, 28th June 2013, 18:32

Re: Come judge my first vault, also questions about vault ma

Alright, another question.

I've just taken my first peek into mon-pick-data.h, and would like to know how to read it better.

  Code:
 {  4, 14,  923, FLAT, MONS_WORKER_ANT },   
{  4, 14,  514, SEMI, MONS_SCORPION },
{  5, 13,   89, PEAK, MONS_FUNGUS },


I assume that I can use this to get an idea of what depths each of these monsters would be appropriate at, but I'm not sure how to go about doing it.
Last edited by KennySheep on Wednesday, 10th July 2013, 17:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Friday, 28th June 2013, 18:42

Re: Come judge my first vault, also questions about vault ma

KennySheep wrote:I've just taken my first peek into mon-pick-info.h, and would like to know how to read it better.

  Code:
 {  4, 14,  923, FLAT, MONS_WORKER_ANT },   
{  4, 14,  514, SEMI, MONS_SCORPION },
{  5, 13,   89, PEAK, MONS_FUNGUS },



The first three numbers are: min depth, max depth, weight. The third item is the distribution type:

  Code:
    FLAT, // full chance throughout the range
    SEMI, // 50% chance at range ends, 100% in the middle
    PEAK, // 0% chance just outside range ends, 100% in the middle, range
          // ends typically get ~20% or more
    UP,   // linearly from near-zero to 100%, increasing with depth
    DOWN, // linearly from 100% at the start to near-zero


So the entry you quoted means:
  • Ants have a weight of 923 in the whole range of D:4-14
  • Scorpions also appear anywhere in D:4-14; at D:9 they have a weight of 514 but at D:4 or D:14 they have a weight of 257
  • Fungi appear from D:5-13, at D:9 they have a weight of 89, but at D:5 or D:13 they have a weight close to zero

The weights work relatively to the weights of other monsters at the same depth. So at D:9 ants have nearly four times the chance to appear as scorpions; whereas fungi are nearly three times less likely than scorpions.

For this message the author mumra has received thanks:
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Post Monday, 29th July 2013, 17:36

Re: Come judge my first vault, also questions about vault ma

A couple of the maps I've made can be placed into the game just fine using the PLACE tag, but using CHANCE: 10000 doesn't seem to work for them.

  Code:
NAME:   digestion
CHANCE:   10000
ORIENT: float
TAGS:   no_monster_gen no_trap_gen no_item_gen no_vmirror no_pool_fixup
DEPTH:   D:17-27
KMONS:   ' = acid blob / jelly w:50 / nothing w:300
KMONS:   . = ooze / brown ooze / slime creature band / giant amoeba / pulsating lump / death ooze / nothing w:500
KMONS:   b = giant orange brain
#:test_setup(_G)
MAP
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
mmmmmmmmmmxxxxxxxmmmmmmmmmmmmm
mwwwwwwwwxx!!!!!xxwwwwwwwwwwwm
mwwwwwxxxx!!!b!!!xxwwwwwwwwwwm
mwwwwwxx!!!!!>!!!!xxwwwwwwwwwm
mwwwwwwwx!!!!!!!!!!xwwwwwwwwwm
mwwwwwwwx!!!!!!!!!!xwwwwwwwwwm
mmmmmmmmxxxxxxxxxxxxwwwwwwwwwm
@!!!!!!!+..........xwwwwwwwwwm
mmmmmmmmxxxxxxxxxx.xwwwwwwwwwm
mwwwwwwwwxxxxxxxxx.xwwwwwwwwwm
mwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwx.xwwwwwwwwwm
mwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwx.xwwwwwwwwwm
mwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwx.xwwwwwwwwwm
mwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwx+xxxxwwwwwwm
mwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwxx''''xxwwwwwm
mwwwwwwwwwwwwxxx'''''''xwwwwwm
mwwwwwwwwwwwxx'''''''''xwwwwwm
mwwwwwwwwwxxx''''''''''xwwwwwm
mwwwwwwwwxx''''''''''''xwwwwwm
mwwwwwwxx''''''''''''''xwwwwwm
mwwwwwxx''''''''''''''xxwwwwwm
mwwwwwx'''''''''''''''xwwwwwwm
mwwwwwx'''''''''''''xxxwwwwwwm
mwwwwwx''xxxx''''xxxxwwwwwwwwm
mwwwwwx'xx  xxxxxwwwwwwwwwwwwm
mwwxxxx+xxxxxxxxxxxxwwwwwwwwwm
mwxx...............xxxxxxxxwwm
mwx.......................xxwm
mwx........................xwm
mwx..xx.xxxxxxxxxxxxx......xwm
mwx..xx.............xxxx...xwm
mwx..xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx...x...xwm
mwx..xx..............xxx...xwm
mwx...x.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx..xwm
mwx...x...............x x..xwm
mwxx..xxxxxxxxxxxxxx..xxx..xwm
mwwx..x..............xx....xwm
mwwx..x.xxxxxxxxxxxxxx.....xwm
mwwx..x..x.................xwm
mwwxxx..xxx..........xxxxxxxwm
mwwwwxxxxxx.....xxxxxxwwwwwwwm
mwwwwwwwwwwxx..xxwwwwwwwwwwwwm
mwwwwwwwwwwwx..xwwwwwwwwwwwwwm
mmmmmmmmmmmmx..xmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
@@@@@@@@@@@@x++x@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
ENDMAP


  Code:
NAME:   hazy_fungus_cave
ORIENT: float
CHANCE:   10000
DEPTH:   Lair
MONS:   wandering mushroom, ballistomycete, fungus, agate snail, giant spore
KFEAT:   ' = floor
NSUBST:   . = 8:2 / 30:3 / 45:W / 5:4 / 2:5
#:test_setup(_G)
MARKER:  F = lua:fog_machine { cloud_type = "purple smoke", pow_min = 50, pow_max = 50, \
                 delay = 5, size = 5, walk_dist = 5, excl_rad = 100, name = "haze" }
MAP
          xxx             xxx
         xx1x  xxxxxxxxx xx1x
xxxxxx   x'xxxxx...xx..xxx'xxxxx     x@@x
@....x  xx...F..........F......xxxxxxx..x
@....xxxx...xxxxx...xxxxx....xx....xxx..x
xxx...xx....xx  xxx.....xxxxxx....x.....x
  x......xxx.xxxxxx.....................x
  xxx...xx xx.'2xx....x...xxx...F.....xxx
    xxxF.xx xxxx'..F..xx.xxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      xx...xxx.....xwwwxxx xx..xx..xxxx
       x..........xxwwwwxxxx...xxxxx x
       xx......xxx.xwwwwxF...'xx     x
        x......xx  xxww......x2x   xxxx
        xx.x....xxxxxxx....xxxxx xxx..@
         xx.x...............xxxxxx....@
          xxxx.....xxxxxx.............@
             xxFxxxx    xx..........xxx
             x1xx        xxxx.Fxxxxxx
             xxx            x'xx
                            x1x
                            xxx
ENDMAP


The common denominator between them is that they are both very big vaults. Does the game just rarely run into an opportunity to place these vaults, or did I mess up somehow and make them impossible for the builder to place in the game without being specifically forced to?

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