First Vaults

[Marbit]

I'm looking for feedback on a couple vaults I've made.
I don't even know if they work or if there is something missing, and I've not tested them. These are my very first vaults.
I'll very much appreciate all the help.

  Code:

# name below:
NAME:   lugonu_lava_temple
TAGS:   no_monster_gen
MONS:   kobold; dart ego:dispersal, kobold; dagger
DEPTH:   5-10
KFEAT:   _ = altar_lugonu

MAP
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxlllxx<.llll..x
xlllllxx.lll..>x
@x.llll..lll%2_x
x.xl1lllllll..>x
xlllxlllx1lll..x
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

ENDMAP
#Created by Marbit


**Edited: kept just the lugunu lava temple, made a small vault, no secret doors, all islands connected to land.

[dpeg]

Friendly rat is a bit weird, not to mention the player may actually not like that (Okawaru). This could be addressed by seing the rat before you auto-explore into the closet (glass or crate). You seem to have some flavour in mind (the map's name indicates this) -- perhaps this can be strengthened?

I see no problem with the Lugonu altar vault apart from the spelling of deity.

Keep 'em coming!

[nicolae]

Friendly rat is a bit weird, not to mention the player may actually not like that (Okawaru).

It might be best to just make it peaceful -- sadly, the mechanics of vault-making sometimes mean you can't always get the flavor you want.

[Marbit]

Friendly rat is a bit weird, not to mention the player may actually not like that (Okawaru). This could be addressed by seing the rat before you auto-explore into the closet (glass or crate). You seem to have some flavour in mind (the map's name indicates this) -- perhaps this can be strengthened?

Thanks for the reply!
Yes, the first vault is a homage the story Flowers for Algernon:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowers_for_Algernon
I could name the rat "Algernon the mouse" but explaining the joke may kill it.
Hopefully the rat won't be that bad for Okawaru followers (they can leave it in a locked room).

I see no problem with the Lugonu altar vault apart from the spelling of deity.

Keep 'em coming!

Fixed! and thanks again!!!

[Marbit]

Friendly rat is a bit weird, not to mention the player may actually not like that (Okawaru).

It might be best to just make it peaceful -- sadly, the mechanics of vault-making sometimes mean you can't always get the flavor you want.

thanks for the feedback!
Flavorwise the first vault might be a bit too complicated and few people will get the joke.
I'll think about it.

thanks!

[mumra]

There is a bit of a problem with the Lugonu temple: there are several areas on it that are what we call "teleport closets", in other words areas that if the player ended up in (e.g. through using a teleport scroll or trap elsewhere on the level, or even taking a hatch or shaft from a different level) they would be completely trapped with no choice but to starve to death!

As hilarious as this sounds, there is a technical problem in that the dungeon builder will "veto" any level that contains such disconnected areas and start again from scratch, this means that your vault will never actually show up in game.

There's an easy solution to this, apply the "no_rtele_into" property to the whole grid like so:

  Code:

KPROP:   .12e_%@dxn = no_rele_into


Edit: on further thought there is an outside chance of walls getting destroyed by some crazy combination of events, so I added "xn" to the KPROP statement above just to be certain.

[Marbit]

There is a bit of a problem with the Lugonu temple: there are several areas on it that are what we call "teleport closets", in other words areas that if the player ended up in (e.g. through using a teleport scroll or trap elsewhere on the level, or even taking a hatch or shaft from a different level) they would be completely trapped with no choice but to starve to death!

As hilarious as this sounds, there is a technical problem in that the dungeon builder will "veto" any level that contains such disconnected areas and start again from scratch, this means that your vault will never actually show up in game.

There's an easy solution to this, apply the "no_rtele_into" property to the whole grid like so:

  Code:

KPROP:   .12e_%@dxn = no_rele_into


Edit: on further thought there is an outside chance of walls getting destroyed by some crazy combination of events, so I added "xn" to the KPROP statement above just to be certain.

Would that prevent players from teleporting/blinking/dispersal within the vault ?
Kobolds will use dispersal darts to move you to other islands. There is a small ( but real) possibility to land in an incorrect island and starve to death.
At level of the dungeon 8-15 players should have some means of escaping (scroll of teleport/blink, wand of teleport/digg/desintegration, levitation potion, distortion weapon).
Is the vault badly designed? would the line that mumra sugested solve the problem? Perhaps I should provide the player with a teleport scroll at the entrance of the vault instead of the confusion potion.

[BlackSheep]

There is a small ( but real) possibility to land in an incorrect island and starve to death.

This is not acceptable.

[mumra]

Would that prevent players from teleporting/blinking/dispersal within the vault ?
Kobolds will use dispersal darts to move you to other islands. There is a small ( but real) possibility to land in an incorrect island and starve to death.
At level of the dungeon 8-15 players should have some means of escaping (scroll of teleport/blink, wand of teleport/digg/desintegration, levitation potion, distortion weapon).
Is the vault badly designed? would the line that mumra sugested solve the problem? Perhaps I should provide the player with a teleport scroll at the entrance of the vault instead of the confusion potion.

"would the line that mumra sugested solve the problem?" - yes, that's why I suggested it

Providing a teleport scroll isn't enough - like I said, the player could arrive on one of those islands by taking a shaft/hatch from a completely different level. They might not even have seen your vault prior to this happening.

no_rtele_into won't stop controlled teleports (that would be no_ctele_into, rtele stands for "random teleport"). It won't stop you random-teleporting out. It won't stop you teleporting or dispersing the monsters ...

But I'm not 100% sure what effect this flag has on dispersal darts or random blinks. My suggestion is to actually load this vault into the game and test it, the only way I could tell you would be by doing that myself and I'd rather let you do it

"At level of the dungeon 8-15 players should have some means of escaping" - yes, should, but it's certainly not guaranteed that they will, and definitely not at level 8. And a wand or scroll of teleportation could easily just land you right back on another one of those islands. The only stage in the game when it's safe to assume the player might have these tools is in the extended endgame e.g. Pan / Hells, they are certainly likely to have some non-consumable form of Flight by then at least, but even then it's generally considered bad form to create this kind of trap.

Edit: Not to mention, any arguments for or against are completely ignoring what I said - the game will literally not allow this vault to exist unless it has no_rtele_into. It's not down to design choice, it's hard-wired into the vault placement routines, sorry.

Edit 2: Apologies, I realise I might have misunderstood the gist of your comments, but anyway yeah you should test this, if darts of dispersal can land you on no_rtele_into grids then that could actually be classified as a bug ...

Edit 3: Another acceptable option is to provide escape hatches or trapdoors on disconnected islands so that player does have an exit route albeit a dangerous one. Ok, enough edits now

[Marbit]

There is a small ( but real) possibility to land in an incorrect island and starve to death.

This is not acceptable.

Providing a teleport scroll isn't enough - like I said, the player could arrive on one of those islands by taking a shaft/hatch from a completely different level. They might not even have seen your vault prior to this happening.

Harsh but fair, that is why I came here in the first place, for honest advice and help. I redesigned the vault to add escape routes, tell me if you still see problems.
I'll check the vault ingame but I've never done so and it sounds a bit complicated.

[mumra]

I'll check the vault ingame but I've never done so and it sounds a bit complicated.

It's not really, it might be that the instructions are badly worded. All you need to do is insert it into one of the *.des files in dat/des. Then there are two ways to test:

a) Add CHANCE:100% or WEIGHT: 10000 to your map, this will make it place on basically every level.
b) Use wizmode - press & to enter wizmode. Then press &L and type your map name.

[nicolae]

I'll check the vault ingame but I've never done so and it sounds a bit complicated.

It's not really, it might be that the instructions are badly worded. All you need to do is insert it into one of the *.des files in dat/des. Then there are two ways to test:

a) Add CHANCE:100% or WEIGHT: 10000 to your map, this will make it place on basically every level.
b) Use wizmode - press & to enter wizmode. Then press &L and type your map name.

I like to use PLACE: WHEREVER and then wizport to the relevant level. It's pretty important to test your vaults before submitting them, though. Even when I make really simple decorative vaults I always test them out, even if it's just to test if I made a typo or if the vault has the shape I want in the tiles aspect ratio or whatever.

[mumra]

I redesigned the vault to add escape routes, tell me if you still see problems.

Comments on the changes you made:

- Unfortunately secret doors have been removed in trunk so you'll have to try something else!
- You don't actually need the 1 tile of floor space around the whole vault, even if doors are there (unless you are going for a specific effect) - the level builder will always attempt to link up exits.
- I've noticed the vault is quite large, nearly half the level width - you could consider using an ORIENT directive which means the vault will get placed before the level is built, otherwise the dungeon builder may struggle to find room for it in a lot of layouts.

[Marbit]

I redesigned the vault to add escape routes, tell me if you still see problems.

Comments on the changes you made:

- Unfortunately secret doors have been removed in trunk so you'll have to try something else!
- You don't actually need the 1 tile of floor space around the whole vault, even if doors are there (unless you are going for a specific effect) - the level builder will always attempt to link up exits.
- I've noticed the vault is quite large, nearly half the level width - you could consider using an ORIENT directive which means the vault will get placed before the level is built, otherwise the dungeon builder may struggle to find room for it in a lot of layouts.

Solved, small vault with no secret doors.
Phew, quite a lot of work for the first vault!

[nicolae]

Solved, small vault with no secret doors.
Phew, quite a lot of work for the first vault!

They get easier.

[mumra]

Yes, keep at it. Don't forget to submit your vaults on Mantis.

[Marbit]

Thanks For the Feedback and all thehelp guys.
I think now the vault has basic quality for the trunk I'll test it first but I'll make sure to send it to mantis.