Tile contributions...


If you are interested in helping with tiles, vaults, patches or documentation, this is the place for that.

dd

Shoals Surfer

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Post Sunday, 10th June 2012, 13:02

Re: Tile contributions...

BlackSheep wrote:Do elven greatswords exist?


I... think so? I've been trying to find a list of which weapons have which racevariants. Does such a list exist somewhere?

Also, blessed & demon blades. Guess which is which!

bdblade-x.png
bdblade-x.png (3.82 KiB) Viewed 18040 times


edit. Also, just to complete the set of demonic weapons, demon trident.

dtrident.png
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 10th June 2012, 13:16

Re: Tile contributions...

Only in the code, I think.

Could you make the demon blade more "evil" looking?

dd

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Post Sunday, 10th June 2012, 13:27

Re: Tile contributions...

Well here's an alternate version of the demon blade.
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Post Sunday, 10th June 2012, 13:52

Re: Tile contributions...

I hope it helps:
  Code:
club -> orcish
whip -> orcish, elven
mace, flail, spiked flail, great mace -> dwarven, orcish
morningstar, hammer, eveningstar -> dwarven, orcish
dagger, short sword, sabre, falchion, long sword -> orcish, dwarven, elven
great sword -> orcish
scimitar -> elven, orcish
hand axe, war axe, broad axe, battleaxe -> orcish, dwarven
spear, trident -> orcish, elven
halberd, glaive, bardiche -> orcish
executioner's axe -> orcish, dwarven
quickblade -> elven
bow -> orcish, elven
longbow -> elven
crossbow -> orcish, dwarven
blowgun -> elven, orcish

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dd

Shoals Surfer

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Post Sunday, 10th June 2012, 13:58

Re: Tile contributions...

Thanks, that helps a lot!

dd

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Post Sunday, 10th June 2012, 16:24

Re: Tile contributions...

Hammers.

How about some hammers?
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Post Sunday, 10th June 2012, 16:33

Re: Tile contributions...

Dude. Those demonic / holy things are friggin beautiful.

dd

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Post Sunday, 10th June 2012, 17:03

Re: Tile contributions...

Makes me kind of wish you could dual-wield in crawl... just so I could wield demonic in one hand and blessed in the other...

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 11th June 2012, 06:04

Re: Tile contributions...

dd wrote:I just made new tiles for longswords. There's regulars, elven, orcish, and artifact.


There were a bunch of new racial swords put in recently. I'd suggest you take a look at those. The new elven swords, for example, have a leaf shape modelled on the Greek xiphos. The winged elven swords you've made, while very nice, look more like the "fantasy warrior" display swords that companies sell. The wings, I feel, make the sword look something less than functional.

The orcish sword looks a little too clean, and the square teeth impractical. Check out the other orcish weapons for a sense of the orcish aesthetic.

Please take these comments as constructive. I really like most of your stuff, and such a huge contribution to the game is very much appreciated.

dd

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Post Monday, 11th June 2012, 09:18

Re: Tile contributions...

Grimm wrote:There were a bunch of new racial swords put in recently.


Where? I haven't seen them.

Grimm wrote:The new elven swords, for example, have a leaf shape modelled on the Greek xiphos.


Ok well that kind of thing might be fine for a short sword but would be kind of impractical and weird for a long sword...

Grimm wrote: The winged elven swords you've made, while very nice, look more like the "fantasy warrior" display swords that companies sell. The wings, I feel, make the sword look something less than functional.


Well I just swiped the winged design from the runed longswords already in the game. For longswords, I think there isn't much opportunity to distinguish the weapons other than by their handle, but I can try a different design for them if you'd like.

Grimm wrote:The orcish sword looks a little too clean, and the square teeth impractical. Check out the other orcish weapons for a sense of the orcish aesthetic.


Isn't it just like orcs though? A jagged/serrated blade would create worse & more painful injuries, and I think the orcish mindset would appreciate inflicting pain over overall functionality... I personally think the jagged edge gives it some orcish flavour, and it was the only feasible thing I could think of to make the blade shape a bit different for them. Where are these other orcish weapons?

dd

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Post Monday, 11th June 2012, 13:43

Re: Tile contributions...

Ok so here are alternate elf longswords.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 11th June 2012, 17:00

Re: Tile contributions...

dd wrote:
Grimm wrote:There were a bunch of new racial swords put in recently.

Where? I haven't seen them.

They're in /dat/tiles/main.png. They've been in for a few weeks now at least.

Well I just swiped the winged design from the runed longswords already in the game. For longswords, I think there isn't much opportunity to distinguish the weapons other than by their handle, but I can try a different design for them if you'd like.

Yeah I don't like that runed longsword either. At least, I personally wouldn't want to see it become more common.

dd wrote:
Grimm wrote:The orcish sword looks a little too clean, and the square teeth impractical. Check out the other orcish weapons for a sense of the orcish aesthetic.

Isn't it just like orcs though? A jagged/serrated blade would create worse & more painful injuries, and I think the orcish mindset would appreciate inflicting pain over overall functionality... I personally think the jagged edge gives it some orcish flavour, and it was the only feasible thing I could think of to make the blade shape a bit different for them. Where are these other orcish weapons?

Let me be clear: I like the idea of a jagged blade for orcs. That one just looks too clean. The teeth look regular and square - like a steak knife, not an orcish sword.

dd

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Post Monday, 11th June 2012, 19:27

Re: Tile contributions...

Grimm wrote:They're in /dat/tiles/main.png. They've been in for a few weeks now at least.


Ah ok, I don't have the trunk version, only 10.2.

Grimm wrote:Let me be clear: I like the idea of a jagged blade for orcs. That one just looks too clean. The teeth look regular and square - like a steak knife, not an orcish sword.


Ok, do you like my orcish greatsword better? I can try to do something like that on the longsword.

dd

Shoals Surfer

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Post Monday, 11th June 2012, 19:50

Re: Tile contributions...

Ok how's these orc longswords?
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Dungeon Master

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Post Monday, 11th June 2012, 23:53

Re: Tile contributions...

I struggled a bit, trying to make variant long sword designs. My goal was to differentiate the profiles enough to make different tiles worthwhile -- if the tiles look too similar, we may as well just have a single tile. On the other hand there is a limited inventory of shapes to work with, considering that we also have falchions and scimitars in the game. I do like the tiles you made, dd, but I also think they're not very distinct from one another.

Also: Elven greatswords exist, but I don't think dwarven longswords do.

dd

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Post Tuesday, 12th June 2012, 00:27

Re: Tile contributions...

roctavian wrote: if the tiles look too similar, we may as well just have a single tile


I disagree. I think they should look somewhat similar, after all it's the same weapon and if they're too different it can be confusing for players - harder to recognize the different weapons, especially similar weapons in the same weapon class...

Racial variation in weapon tiles is mostly a flavor thing anyway, and even if the differences between the races are minor, it still brings some flavor to the weapon.

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Post Tuesday, 12th June 2012, 13:45

Re: Tile contributions...

The orc blades remind me of Aztec macuahuitls.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macuahuitl
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dd

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Post Tuesday, 12th June 2012, 14:09

Re: Tile contributions...

Surprise! More axes.

Rows: broad, battle, war
Columns: regular, runed, dwarf, dwarf runed, orc, orc runed, artifact
8th column: demon axe (artifact)
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Tuesday, 12th June 2012, 15:43

Re: Tile contributions...

Those look great, I especially like the dwarven battleaxes and the orcish broad and war axes.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Tuesday, 12th June 2012, 19:42

Re: Tile contributions...

These are all great looking. The shapes are nicely distinctive, and your demon weapons look much better than the current ones.


I hope you don't mind, but I sort of redrew one of your axes. Somebody on Mantis pointed out that your tiles clash a bit with the current style, but my concern is just that, in my opinion, they would look even better with a little more confidence and clarity. It'll be a dark day for pixel art before I'm any sort of authority, but hopefully it's at least helpful as an example of how one guy does things.

Image
The main things I changed were:

- I used only a little anti-aliasing, and no transparency at all. Anti-aliasing is great, and jaggies are bad, but two or three pixels along the "jaggiest" lines - where the contrast is highest - are generally more than enough. Lots of pixel artists hate transparency; I personally don't mind it in small amounts, but you've got basically every single border pixel at some level of transparency, and that tends to make things look mushy, hesitant, and ill-defined. Strong lines give your item a shape and help it stand out from the background. I actually went out of my way to make the line between head and blade even sharper than it would otherwise be, since that's an area of low contrast, and I want to draw the viewer's eye there.

- Your axe has tons and tons of colors. Again, that's not a bad thing inherently, but having tons of tiny variations of a color sort of tricks your brain into drawing things in a really flat way. The head of your axe has lots of interesting detail, but it mostly dissolves into a grey mass at 1x1 scale, since all the colors are so similar. I find it's much easier to get my point across and keep things crisp when I only give myself a few shades of each color to work with (in this case, my version of the axe has nine colors, including the black outline).


By the way, I used to do all of these things exactly the way you're doing them. The stuff I did for Battle of Wesnoth has more shades of grey than that one bestselling romance novel. I would draw a line, then mess with it for ages, going back and forth with transparent erasers and pencils until it was as smooth as I could get it. But that was kind of a crutch - my stuff looks a lot better now that I've learned to get by without it and be confident in what I'm drawing.


Anyway, that's just my take on it. This stuff all looks amazing in any case; it should definitely go in.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 12th June 2012, 20:28

Re: Tile contributions...

I thought I posted this yesterday but it seems it didn't save. Anyway:

Here's the weapons section of current main.png. Orc swords have the pronounced hooks on the end, dwarfs swords have slighter hooks, orc greatswords are jaggedy like yours. Dwarf war axes have the blade attached at a single central point, orc axes have two points of attachment and a square look.
Image

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Post Tuesday, 12th June 2012, 21:07

Re: Tile contributions...

To be completely honest looking at these strongly anti-aliased tiles for a while almost gives me a headache. They look too blurry IMO, which makes looking at them downright unpleasant. They are quite beautiful, but they hurt my eyes. It's fine for shadows, but I would prefer the weapons themselves to have clearly defined lines. Things shouldn't look too jagged, but IMO you overdid it.

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dd

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Post Wednesday, 13th June 2012, 02:53

Re: Tile contributions...

Grimm wrote:Here's the weapons section of current main.png. Orc swords have the pronounced hooks on the end, dwarfs swords have slighter hooks, orc greatswords are jaggedy like yours. Dwarf war axes have the blade attached at a single central point, orc axes have two points of attachment and a square look.


So are these like rules that need to be followed for all future tiles? Tbh I don't much care about those square axes - they look too much like meat cleavers to me... I attempted to make one axe with a square sort of blade but I just didn't like the design, it didn't look "weapony" enough to me, so I went with more curved blades instead...

dd

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Post Wednesday, 13th June 2012, 03:06

Re: Tile contributions...

ontoclasm wrote: but you've got basically every single border pixel at some level of transparency


I thought I only used antialiasing on the curved edges... I left the straight & diagonal edges without any.

To be honest, I'm not a pixel artist - I don't really "get" pixel art. I like to draw stuff on the computer though, and I've done some graphic deisigns for various things, and this whole thing of "not liking antialiasing" just goes against every instinct I've learned doing graphics for other things - this one place where I used to do graphics, people would nitpick my linework, finding 4x4 squares in a 600x600 image that had some pixelated lines in it... so I've sort of developed an instinctive aversion to pixelation. My first instinct is to get rid of it.

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Post Wednesday, 13th June 2012, 03:12

Re: Tile contributions...

dd wrote:
Grimm wrote:Here's the weapons section of current main.png.

So are these like rules that need to be followed for all future tiles?

Not that I'm aware of. You'd best ask some devs, as they have final say on what goes in. I don't know if they have an overall plan for how weapons look. Also maybe talk to whomever made those new tiles. They may be open to collaborating.

dd

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Post Wednesday, 13th June 2012, 04:22

Re: Tile contributions...

Ok well I'm just going to do my weapons and if they're accepted then great, if not then I'll guess I'll just use them as my personal tiles...

I edited the broadaxes a bit, added some pixelation and reduced colours.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Wednesday, 13th June 2012, 04:52

Re: Tile contributions...

Those are already much better, much more defined. Keep up the good work!

dd

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Post Wednesday, 13th June 2012, 05:51

Re: Tile contributions...

Dwarf axes edited...
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dd

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Post Wednesday, 13th June 2012, 06:22

Re: Tile contributions...

Battle axes edited...
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Dungeon Master

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Post Wednesday, 13th June 2012, 08:07

Re: Tile contributions...

I don't think there's any devs who are specifically tasked with implementing new tiles; in my experience Kilobyte and edlothiol tend to be the guys who do it, but they have a lot of other things on their plate. As far as I can tell, there's no real formal review process or anything like that. The closest thing is discussion on the tracker -- or here, but the tracker is more likely to reach the eyes of those who code things in. Mind you, the process is slow, and you'll usually be looking at a few months after you post something before it goes in. I think of tiles improvement as a years-long process, even if I've only been contributing since the fall or so.

As far as anti-aliasing and pixelization go, I don't think we should think of them as opposing philosophies or anything. Tiles need to be considered on a case-by-case basis because it's hard to strike the balance between clear and good-looking when things are so tiny. I think virtually all of these axes are an improvement over what's currently in the game. On the other hand, I will probably re-do a few down the line to make them match the rest of the racial tiles I've made. We all have to be open to collaboration on a certain level, considering the nature of DCSS. It just doesn't look the same as collaboration in other projects -- there is little communication you can do about 32x32 pixel squares when you're in the middle of making them. So if opinions differ, we'll re-do each others' tiles from time to time, and that's okay.

In any case, it's nice to get almost all the tile-makers in this thread to chat a bit!

dd

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Post Wednesday, 13th June 2012, 08:39

Re: Tile contributions...

Maybe we could all agree on some general design guidelines for the weapons and then we could just sort of start making them and improving each others' work... just an idea...

For one thing, I think as a general rule for weapon handles/shafts, regular versions should have silver/steel coloured pieces while runed ones should have golden. Like it is currently with sabres. It gets kinda confusing then when we have longswords/greatswords that have golden parts in the hilt even in the regular version. Which is why I made them silver in my sword tiles.
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Post Wednesday, 13th June 2012, 09:29

Re: Tile contributions...

dd wrote:Maybe we could all agree on some general design guidelines for the weapons and then we could just sort of start making them and improving each others' work... just an idea...

I'm not an artist myself, but I think ontoclasm advices about using transparency sparingly and limiting the number of colours make a lot of sense. And the example he gave with the improved axe is stunning.
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dd

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Post Wednesday, 13th June 2012, 09:43

Re: Tile contributions...

Well, I made some falchions.
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dd

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Post Wednesday, 13th June 2012, 21:08

Re: Tile contributions...

Ok, this time I decided I'd play nice and I checked what's already in trunk so I could do a weapon that hasn't already been done. I improved the executioner's axe and even better, I tried to make it somewhat consistent with the existing axe designs.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 13th June 2012, 21:15

Re: Tile contributions...

When you're not decapitating demons you can bake pizza on it.

dd

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Post Wednesday, 13th June 2012, 21:36

Re: Tile contributions...

Grimm wrote:When you're not decapitating demons you can bake pizza on it.


Everyone knows dwarves love pizza.

Just to be clear, are you saying the axes should be narrower?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 13th June 2012, 21:40

Re: Tile contributions...

No, sorry, just making a joke. I like those tiles a lot.

dd

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Post Wednesday, 13th June 2012, 21:57

Re: Tile contributions...

Well, I made the dwarf axes a bit narrower anyway. They did look a bit like pizza shovels... I left the others as they are. Also added an artifact variant.
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Post Wednesday, 13th June 2012, 22:10

Re: Tile contributions...

dd wrote:Improved hwips


Why are you pronouncing it like that?
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dd

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Post Wednesday, 13th June 2012, 22:27

Re: Tile contributions...

XuaXua wrote:
dd wrote:Improved hwips


Why are you pronouncing it like that?


Are you drunk?
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Dungeon Master

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Post Wednesday, 13th June 2012, 23:18

Re: Tile contributions...

I mentally classify XuaXua as drunk most of the time. Also those executioner axes are, in the vernacular, hella dope (or wicked sick if you are east-coast USA).
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Post Wednesday, 13th June 2012, 23:21

Re: Tile contributions...

You cant have a pie without hwips.

dd

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Post Thursday, 14th June 2012, 04:47

Re: Tile contributions...

Ohhh so it's a family guy thing...

Well in that case -
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Thursday, 14th June 2012, 07:11

Re: Tile contributions...

The d-weapons look great, really hope to see them in.

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Post Thursday, 14th June 2012, 12:51

Re: Tile contributions...

dd wrote:Ohhh so it's a family guy thing...

Well in that case -

They say today, that all you see
Is bad puns from Grimm
And tiles from dd...


(EDIT: Just so you don't get the wrong idea, keep it up! You are doing awesome work.)
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dd

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Post Thursday, 14th June 2012, 14:48

Re: Tile contributions...

Check it, yo -

I revised almost all of my racial axes. I left out the racial war axes since there already are good racial war axes, and I redid all my other racial axes (ie. broad/battle) to fit the same style.

Results are as follows, thusly:
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Thursday, 14th June 2012, 16:48

Re: Tile contributions...

There's something about the 3 chunky exec axes ( going left to right they're #11, 13 and 14) that I really dont like, I think it might be the fact that because the blades are large the amount of flat colour on the metal feels like it draws the eye a lot more or something, I don't know, they just don't seem to fit in as well with the rest, but all the others look fantastic.


EDIT : I put them on here to make identifying which ones I mean better, it's mainly the right two I think are too, I dunno chunky or flat on the main blades?
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Last edited by Dustbin on Friday, 15th June 2012, 06:33, edited 1 time in total.

dd

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Post Friday, 15th June 2012, 05:31

Re: Tile contributions...

Which ones do you mean?

Also, I redid my racial morning/eveningstars. I made them look much more distinct from each other.
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dd

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Post Friday, 15th June 2012, 18:56

Re: Tile contributions...

I redid my polearm designs and added new stuff, such as glaives & more tridents. Man, the current glaives don't really look like glaives... the regular one looks more like a gardening hoe to me... anyway.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 15th June 2012, 19:03

Re: Tile contributions...

I like the ones with ribbons a lot.
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