The Tavern

BlackSheep wrote:I like the ones with ribbons a lot.

They're called "tassels"

I really like most of your tiles. But your exec axes are a little too huge IMO. Might be just me, though. They just don't look like you could use them in a fight at all. Were you going for a purely ceremonial weapon for executions style?

Galefury wrote:I really like most of your tiles. But your exec axes are a little too huge IMO. Might be just me, though. They just don't look like you could use them in a fight at all. Were you going for a purely ceremonial weapon for executions style?

I was going by the style of the existing executioner axe, then synthesizing it with the styles of the existing racial axes.

I dunno, I'm not sure if the design of the executioner axe is all that practical either, but then, the name already implies it's not exactly designed for combat... however it doesn't exactly look like a "traditional" executioner axe either (you know, the kind the black-hooded guys always carry). But then, the other axe designs don't really match their names either IMO...

If I could decide on all the axes, based on their tiles only, I'd name the current broadaxe to "battleaxe", and rename the current battleaxe to "war axe" or "great axe", and rename the current war axe to "bearded axe" or maybe "longbeard axe" (ie. a viking axe) as that's what the regular war axe design resembles most. Tangentially, I also think bardiche should be classified as an axe instead of a polearm, as it's basically just a huge axe with a relatively long handle... but it isn't my decision so it doesn't matter.

Anyway, I could create an alternative designs for the exec axes that look more like "traditional" looking executioner's tools, the only problem would be making them distinct enough from the broadaxes... However I think I could maybe pull it off.

I actually rather like the current exec axe tile. It is huge, really huge even, but while it looks impractical it still looks somewhat usable for combat for a crazy strong and really tall person. But in your racial tiles the blade is even longer and wider than in the current one. It's like that for all of your axe tiles, so doing it differently might look weird. Having some usable blade in a place where you actually have leverage instead of only right next to the handle would be nice, though. I guess it's not as much the size of the blade that bothers me, but where it is. It also seems to start lower in your non-racial exec axe tile than in the current one. Maybe you could reverse the position of the big and small blades?

Something general: there is really no need to stick close to the current tiles if you don't want to in my opinion. If the tile and name don't fit together, it's better to change the tile.

Ok well, this is the kind of axes I think of when I hear "exectioner's axe":

: alt_ex_axes.png (6.3 KiB) Viewed 18640 times

- no need for balancing spike or double-edged head, balance isn't important if the axe isn't meant for combat
- wide blade for easily lopping off heads on a chopping block with one strike

Just as gameplay>realism, readibility>realism too. Tiles need to be easily distinguishable at a glance. Executioners' axes need to look like the biggest, most dangerous axe, regardless of what they're called.

Well if their purpose is to just be the "most badass axe" I think they should be called something else... Executioner's axe to me doesn't imply an axe that's the best axe for fighting.

Maybe they could be renamed as "poleaxe" or "great axe" or something...

But it implies exactly that to all current Crawl players.

What if they were double-edged?

: alt_ex_axes2.png (8.56 KiB) Viewed 18638 times

Now they at least look big & heavy...

All of these but the normal and normal runed one are pretty cool. Those two look very bland and boring, though. Maybe use the previous exec axe tile you made (with the fancy double blades like the current tile) for the normal and artifact ones, and use the new racial tiles? They look much more usable than the previous ones, but also get the "holy crap thats a big axe" vibe across.

Or how about this...

Just an aside here - a real headsman's axe would not generally be double-bitted. You're going to swing it in a controlled environment, and you want the swing to be as true as possible (i.e. you want a single heavy blade pulling straight down.) Historical purpose made designs tend either be somewhat largish axes that closely resemble implements used for chopping wood, which emphasize making sure the spinal column is severed, or axes with very huge wide bits and narrow cheeks, in order to try to make sure that the entire neck is severed in one swing. Note that multiple swings were nonetheless required in many cases.

Not that this should necessarily impact your design for a fantasy game, but in case you want to go in a different direction. :-P

JeffQyzt wrote:Just an aside here - a real headsman's axe would not generally be double-bitted. You're going to swing it in a controlled environment, and you want the swing to be as true as possible (i.e. you want a single heavy blade pulling straight down.) Historical purpose made designs tend either be somewhat largish axes that closely resemble implements used for chopping wood, which emphasize making sure the spinal column is severed, or axes with very huge wide bits and narrow cheeks, in order to try to make sure that the entire neck is severed in one swing. Note that multiple swings were nonetheless required in many cases.

I already said that same thing basically but realism isn't a deciding factor in this... it's more important that exec axe is a big badass axe rather than to make it look like a "real" exec axe. Personally I think the weapon should be renamed to something more fitting but that's up to the devs.

Well, if you want a single bit axe that looks badass but comes closer to a headsman's axe, I'd suggest something with a very wide bearded design extending to a very long and narrow lower heel. Something that puts you in mind of an extremely short and wide scythe - so you get the (even greater) death connotation.

Personally, I play console, though, so don't pay me much mind. :-)

We already have bearded axes as the "war axe". I think exec axes need to be two-edged as the only other two-edged axe is the battleaxe, while there are various other single-edged axes.

I agree that realistically an exec axe should be single-edged, but like said realism isn't really a concern here. Read the last page of this thread, where this thing was discussed...

"Two bladed" also clearly signals "two handed" to the player. Best to keep it.

Anyway, I uploaded the alternate exec axes to mantis, so the devs can decide if they want to use them or the earlier ones. I'm ok either way.

I made bows.

I like your bows.

Thanks! Left to right, there's regulars, orcish, elven, and the last one is artifact.

The runed/glowing bows should mostly resemble reflex bows, while the ordinary bows are more like flatbows. The artifact bow should look like a recurve bow.

I love them.

Artifact feels too close to elven, though that could be the picture of them all lined up.

Can you make it a little less realistic (more distinct and blatantly artifactive) with maybe blue-green highlights or a golden string, or something?

Yeps

: bows-x.png (7.26 KiB) Viewed 18515 times

Also, here's a couple alternate designs I made, just as experiment... the second one is meant to resemble a Penobscot war bow, the first one is a more fantasy design... anyway they might be a bit too "different" or "weird" looking:

: bows-xx.png (4.41 KiB) Viewed 18515 times

I swear I'm not being an ass; can you throw some non-bow colors onto the, uhh, crosspiece(?). Like to represent a gem or two? It still seems too ordinary.

I don't know, I tried adding some gold trimmings but it just doesn't look right... it ends up looking weird and non-bowish.

Ok I did it like this. Changed the runed elven & orcish bows too.

+= longbows

dd wrote:I don't know, I tried adding some gold trimmings but it just doesn't look right... it ends up looking weird and non-bowish.

I'm talking non-bow colors, like blues and greens; something to make it really stand out (even slightly tacky). For an in-game example, I keep finding this odd reddish ring mail for artefact ring mail and it just feels too much like standard ring mail to stand out.

I dunno... bright orange isn't standing out enough? I also added some gold to the tips.

Have you put the bows on Mantis? (I know there are already a lot of tiles submissions from you waiting there, but if you don't put them there, they are practically sure to be missed when we have the time to integrate them.)
I really like them, and I think the artifact tile is fine.

edlothiol wrote:Have you put the bows on Mantis? (I know there are already a lot of tiles submissions from you waiting there, but if you don't put them there, they are practically sure to be missed when we have the time to integrate them.)
I really like them, and I think the artifact tile is fine.

I figured I'd finish my crossbow designs first and then upload them all at once... as you said there's already a lot of submissions from me so I figure it's better to combine similar tiles to one report each.

added crossbows. Not sure how well they turned out... At first I was going to give the runed ones recurve bows - like real war crossbows used to have - but that just didn't end up looking good in this size + angle... so I differentiated them by making the regular ones have wooden bows and metal for runed ones.

To me they are far too similar to one another. They would be almost indistinguishable when travelling at speed.

Ok I wanted to get the perspective right (which is really hard on 32x32 images!) so I redrew the whole crossbow model. I only did the first two for now... not sure if it looks better this way?

I think it looks much better.

Thanks... the old crossbow (currently in the game, and what I based my previous designs on) looks kind of like it's from a behind-view perspective, which seems kind of weird in the context of all the other weapon tiles... I tried to make my new version look more like a bird's eye perspective, so it could look like the crossbow was lying on the floor or something.

I made dwarven versions but I'm not sure how well they turned out...

I think I like the new version more, too.

The dwarven crossbows look good, they may be a bit too dark, though. You should try them out on the standard dungeon floor tile.

edlothiol wrote: You should try them out on the standard dungeon floor tile.

They already are on it...

Indeed they are

I don't know what was different when I looked the first time, it was probably the lighting here, the tiles just seemed darker (both the crossbows and the backgrounds). I retract my statement

Ok so here they are all together.

The artefact crossbow is nowhere near distinct enough.

blue or red?

Blue. It's got to contrast sharply with the other tiles.

Grimm wrote:The artefact crossbow is nowhere near distinct enough.

The one BEFORE the artifact crossbow is a better artifact crossbow, IMHO.

Really good going, dd, keep up the great work!

--Eino

I quite like those as well!

dd wrote:blue or red?

Red IMO, the blue one looks really boring to me. Some more gold ornaments would help, but that is of course difficult in the small space.

I uploaded both to Mantis, the devs can decide which one to use.

I appreciate the effort being made here but as mentioned previously, there's some real issues I have with the designs:

* The palette isn't limited enough in comparison with existing tiles
* Anti-aliasing and gradients are too liberally applied aren't dithered or pixel-art enough
* The shield design with variations are cool but much like the wildly different racial variations it's harder and harder to distinguish randarts, fixedarts and just graphical changes. As a tiles player I kind of like the fact that
a plain-jane buckler always looks like a buckler, so when I see a fixedart, it'll pop out at me straight away. I don't want to have to learn 10 or so shield / weapon designs.
* Most of the existing weapon tiles are okay, I don't understand the need to do a complete redesign of everything?

I think these are some serious issues holding back their inclusion. Many of these tiles just don't quite fit with the Crawl design language.

I think the recent tiles with a little less antialiasing fit very well into crawl.

I personally think these later contributions look pixely enough. The adjustment earlier towards less antialiasing was necessary, but the style seems similar enough now (If I'm seeing things it's embarrassing..) I'm a fan of the pixelated, limited-paletted style prevalent in Crawl and think it should stay that way. Wouldn't mind if the palette/antialiasing in these was adjusted further (as the style is indeed a little different) but also I'm ok with them as they are (with the disclaimer that I haven't played with the new tiles in).

Good feedback oiseaux though even if I disagreed with a point or two a bit, that was a good useful post!

--Eino

The Tavern

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