New scoreboard


If you are interested in helping with tiles, vaults, patches or documentation, this is the place for that.

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Tuesday, 30th August 2016, 00:16

New scoreboard

Over the past five months, zxc and I have been working on a new scoreboard for online DCSS. We're proud to announce it has just reached PUBLIC BETA!!

http://scoreboard.crawl.develz.org/

From humble beginnings we've come a long way, but there's plenty more to be done. Our next step is to gather feedback from the community to decide what our priorities should be. If you have time, I'd love to see your answers to these questions:

1. How do you currently access scoreboard data? (eg the CAO scoreboard, sequell, end of game highscore data)
2. How often do you use these sources?
3. Why do you access this data?
4. What do you like about our new scoreboard?
5. What don't you like?
6. What could be improved?
7. Why will/won't this scoreboard replace your use of the other scoreboard data sources?

PS, if you'd like to contribute, you can!
Last edited by chequers on Monday, 17th October 2016, 22:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Tuesday, 30th August 2016, 15:01

Re: New scoreboard

Is it possible to remove bots from "Fastest (Real-Time)"?
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Post Tuesday, 30th August 2016, 18:00

Re: New scoreboard

1. CAO
2. Frequently, like almost every time I play
3. To check species/backgrounds I still need to win, to track my progress on self-imposed goals like faster realtime play, to feel terrible about my win%, etc.
4. Clean, readable layout; player search box
5. It's missing a column for Runes
6. I really like the CAO combo matrixes that shows how many games I've played and won with each species/background, that should be included alongside or instead of the comma-separated lists
7. Until you address the previous two points I will keep using CAO, but then I'll gladly switch to this

Thanks!
Wins (Does not include my GrEE^Veh 15-runer...stupid experimental branch)

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Post Tuesday, 30th August 2016, 18:55

Re: New scoreboard

Also god tab for high scores does not make sense in current state. That's the best "Fedhas" game:

  Code:
58783 | Zot:5    | Got the Orb of Zot
...
59347 | D:6      | Became a worshipper of Fedhas Madash
...
59464 | D:$      | Escaped with the Orb!
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Sar

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Post Tuesday, 30th August 2016, 19:13

Re: New scoreboard

1. CAO.
2. Pretty often when I'm playing Crawl.
3. Makes me feel like the time I wasted playing Crawl amounted to something. Also, I dunno, used it to see which combos I need to win when I wasn't a greaterplayer/greatnaga.
4. It shows a bit more relevant info, I guess.
5. It's too bright! It also doesn't show some relevant info old one did, like your personal streaks. Also, it has the new logo in the top and it is too sleek and modern and also takes relevant space (I'm pretty sure anyone opening that page will realize that it's for DUNGEON CRAWL STONE SOUP. Yes, I have a small monitor.
6. The list of wins could be numbered. Maybe even rows should be made a bit darker? It would also be nice if you could sort it by stuff like score, god etc. Also, there was that weird Centaur game on a server that is now long dead, it took months for it to appear on my CAO score page and it's not listed on the new one. Also there's that "first and won" thing, would be nice to see it too.
7. I'm a huge retrograde.

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Post Tuesday, 30th August 2016, 22:39

Re: New scoreboard

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Is it possible to remove bots from "Fastest (Real-Time)"?

Yes, this will be done

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Tuesday, 30th August 2016, 22:41

Re: New scoreboard

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Also god tab for high scores does not make sense in current state. That's the best "Fedhas" game:

  Code:
58783 | Zot:5    | Got the Orb of Zot
...
59347 | D:6      | Became a worshipper of Fedhas Madash
...
59464 | D:$      | Escaped with the Orb!

Tricky. I wouldn't want to forbid god swaps but I guess we need some restriction here. Perhaps "no active wrath" or "worshipped for at least x%"
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Post Tuesday, 30th August 2016, 22:44

Re: New scoreboard

1. CAO and Sequell. Personally I don't like that so much stuff is buried in IRC with Sequell. I'm comfortable using it but I know many people aren't, and even more people than that don't even know that the option exists. The ingame scoreboard is a joke.

2. Essentially every time I'm playing, and occasionally when I'm curious about someone's stats, greatfoo status, or such.

3. See above. Also, personally, I like having an easily reviewable history of my accomplishments. If I didn't have that then I'd be much less interested in playing Crawl. It's a Hall of Fame, pretty much.

4. Better delivery of information in some ways. The gigantic charts on CAO are wasteful -- better to just have a few paragraphs of wins-by-species/background/god each. The personal best-scores at top is nice as well: highest score, shortest win, fastest win, etc. I think there's a lot more that could be done with that! "Lowest level won with", "fastest first rune", and so on.

5. Background is too bright and noisy relative to the text. (CAO uses a pure white background, but the text is in its own tables with different colored frames) Wins aren't flagged in any specific way (CAO bolds them) in the game list feed. # of runes isn't listed. There's no currently-active-streak on personal pages or streak history. Longest Streaks in streaks.html probably could be extended to 20 or 25 instead of top 10 only.

6. See above, mostly. Wins could be numbered. Makes it easier to point out which win, vs "the second DrGl win" or whatever, just go "Win 37" or "74" or something. You've mentioned this is already on your to-do, but including the basic Sequell achievements is a great first start (goodplayer, greatplayer, greaterplayer, greatrace/role, uniqueplayer, polytheist). Zazz up that page with flair and cheevs!

7. As of right now I prefer the compactness of CAO. Being able to review my entire win history in a couple scrolls is nice; vs having to scroll several extra times to go through my entire win history. I put a premium on screen space for stuff like this, getting a good amount of information in a quick glance is nice. CAO is missing so many features, though, so if the information presented becomes more compact and the above FRs are added, I would switch over in a moment.

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Post Tuesday, 30th August 2016, 22:57

Re: New scoreboard

Another thing that could be done:

Highest score/fastest/shortest/best streak broken down by each version of Crawl. Currently the high scores for each category are universal and forever, which make competition increasingly stagnant over time. Imagine a scenario where, for example, 0.20 of Crawl implemented something that greatly shortened Crawl's length, that was reverted in 0.21. It would be very difficult to ever seriously compete on the leaderboard ever again! Under CAO's formula for listing best games, the competition is permanently over. But if the best scores are segregated by version, then the competition is refreshed anew with each new version.

Should be easy to record both personal records and community records for that. Even if a player doesn't have a shot of competing with 4thArraOfDagon or someone like that, they can still aim for their own personal bests.

This is like how the tournaments work currently, but the tournaments only last for two weeks with each release... but each major version lasts 6 to 8 months. That's a lot of time for people to low-level compete with each other!

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Post Tuesday, 30th August 2016, 23:05

Re: New scoreboard

chequers wrote:1. How do you currently access scoreboard data? (eg the CAO scoreboard, sequell, end of game highscore data)
2. How often do you use these sources?
3. Why do you access this data?
4. What do you like about our new scoreboard?
5. What don't you like?
6. What could be improved?
7. Why will/won't this scoreboard replace your use of the other scoreboard data sources?


1. CAO scoreboard and beem commands.
2. Often.
3. For the e-penis I suppose. Sometimes for the log of the character whose ghost I encountered.
4. Player search, definitely. Quick lookup of wins by race/background/god is okay too. I think it also updates faster than the scoreboard on akrasiac?
5. Layout and less information available in comparison to the CAO scoreboard.
6. Fix the Shortest/Fastest Win bug; I'm really fond of the CAO's table with number of games per race and background, so maybe include that somehow?
7. To make me stop using beem/Sequell you'd have to implement all of their functionality, which is not very likely. My preference of CAO's scoreboard is mostly a matter of the looks.

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Post Tuesday, 30th August 2016, 23:40

Re: New scoreboard

chequers wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:Also god tab for high scores does not make sense in current state. That's the best "Fedhas" game:

  Code:
58783 | Zot:5    | Got the Orb of Zot
...
59347 | D:6      | Became a worshipper of Fedhas Madash
...
59464 | D:$      | Escaped with the Orb!

Tricky. I wouldn't want to forbid god swaps but I guess we need some restriction here. Perhaps "no active wrath" or "worshipped for at least x%"

If there is a god tab for high scores, imho the only sensible solution is to forbid god swaps. Otherwise it just is not meaningful.
HOFEMDHeHuReMDHuHOCjDsHuNaCjHuHuSENeGEFEMDBeDDFiHOWzVpVMHuEE{HEMoDEHuDDAs}{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWz,DDHu

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Post Wednesday, 31st August 2016, 00:14

Re: New scoreboard

Well, what about good god swaps? Say someone picking up Ely on D:2 and then swapping to the non-evil god they really wanted at Temple?
Or say you start as CK and worship at an ecu altar to get Jiyva.

I would like both cases to be eligible for god highscores, saying they are ineligible seems overly restrictive.
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Post Wednesday, 31st August 2016, 00:21

Re: New scoreboard

My opinion is that for a god highscore to be meaningful, only one god should be involved.

But don't mind me, I don't even play online...
HOFEMDHeHuReMDHuHOCjDsHuNaCjHuHuSENeGEFEMDBeDDFiHOWzVpVMHuEE{HEMoDEHuDDAs}{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWz,DDHu

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Post Wednesday, 31st August 2016, 00:24

Re: New scoreboard

Many thanks for the work! The personalised pages look very nice. I will not comment on aesthetics, that's your right and responsibility :)
Some more or less random comments, which may be too far off...
  1. List number of runes for all games. This is really important, in particular for players who don't, or only rarely, win.
  2. Wins in bold face would be a nice touch.
  3. Tables should be sortable by all reasonable columns (name, version, score etc.).
  4. Ideally, one could (de)select a bunch of parameters simultaneously. For example, assume that all tables had a section above the header, where you can choose a species (including "all"), same with version, god, runes etc. Even more fancy if players can select several items on lists, such as "versions: 0.4, 0.5, 0.6". I think this would go quite some way to allow players dig data without having to sequell.
  5. I am an absolute sucker for the graphical charts called Server Activity. A nicer version of that (the abscissa scales are completely off by now, for example) would make for a very beautiful header of your scoreboard, in my opinion.
  6. This is probably again wishful thinking, but I always thought that the information about combinations should also be displayed in tables. For example, the highscore table could be preceded by a table of (species) times (backgrounds), where each entry is just a colour. Give brightest red, say, to DDWr, and reduce saturation proportionally for all other entries. Mousing over a square gives more information (player etc.); pressing goes to the morgue.
  7. Some links are broken. I tested my GEAE win, which akrasiac correctly links here whereas the new scoreboard does not! The numbers are different -- are there lost games in the database?

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Post Wednesday, 31st August 2016, 00:29

Re: New scoreboard

Sprucery wrote:My opinion is that for a god highscore to be meaningful, only one god should be involved.

But don't mind me, I don't even play online...


I disagree with this, however I wouldn't be upset if it banned gods that were different between orb and finish.

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Post Wednesday, 31st August 2016, 13:02

Re: New scoreboard

Updates (player pages will update when the player name next plays a game):
* Player page: fixed fastest/shortest win display
* Game tables: added runes, removed score
* Game tables: Highlight won games in tables that contain non-winning games
* Streaks: Only show active streaks with games in the past year
* Bug fixes & performance improvements

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Post Wednesday, 31st August 2016, 17:28

Re: New scoreboard

Why did you remove score from the game tables? It's very weird to click the "highscore" table and not see the actual, uh...scores.
Wins (Does not include my GrEE^Veh 15-runer...stupid experimental branch)

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Post Thursday, 1st September 2016, 01:10

Re: New scoreboard

A few people said that, so tables of winning games show score & runes now (tables not exclusively of winning games show neither).

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Post Thursday, 1st September 2016, 01:52

Re: New scoreboard

chequers: This is a bit nitpicky, but I think that at least the personal pages (when you enter a name) should list runes and score for all games. This is relevant for the group of players without any wins (this group is really big, much bigger than one would think just from this forum): if you've never won, then getting new highscores and, even better, runes is your primary goal.

Keep up the good work!

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Post Thursday, 1st September 2016, 02:02

Re: New scoreboard

I'd like to record 'personal best' data like that in some persistent way, so people always have something to strive for, but I don't think the right place for that information is the 'recent games' table. By definition that's ephemeral data.

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Post Friday, 2nd September 2016, 20:14

Re: New scoreboard

FR: In the list of wins, indicate which wins were streaked. So if win #37, 38, and 39 were all streaked, somehow bracket them together or separate it slightly from the other entries on the list.

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Post Thursday, 29th September 2016, 18:54

Re: New scoreboard

chequers wrote:5. What don't you like?

"Page generated 24 days ago"

chequers wrote:6. What could be improved?

"Page generated 24 days ago"

chequers wrote:7. Why will/won't this scoreboard replace your use of the other scoreboard data sources?

"Page generated 24 days ago"

But seriously, what happened to this? Will it start working again in the future?
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Post Thursday, 29th September 2016, 23:22

Re: New scoreboard

Scoreboard has been on hiatus for a few weeks, but hopefully progress soon!

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Post Monday, 17th October 2016, 22:23

Re: New scoreboard

After a longer than expected period of relaxation, scoreboard is back with a new official-ish URL: http://scoreboard.crawl.develz.org/

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Post Friday, 11th November 2016, 22:37

Re: New scoreboard

How much of a hassle would it be to add Achievement Titles to this scoreboard?
Stuff that in that past, one has to keep track of themselves? ie "Great Player, Greater Minotaur, etc" ?

Also, anyway to include Wins with species/backgrounds/gods that are no longer in the game? Maybe as a separate entity?
I've got a Pakellas win that doesn't add up in the "Gods" total.
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Post Sunday, 13th November 2016, 01:47

Re: New scoreboard

You can currently see if you've achieved all-species/background/god wins on the page, so I'm not sure we need to support the legacy great/er player & polytheistic versions (which have slightly different rules). Showing great-species/background/God(?!) would be nice though.

I'd also like to show unplayable wins somehow, only for players who have won them so there's no legacy clutter.

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Post Monday, 14th November 2016, 05:14

Re: New scoreboard

I've implemented the second suggestion. Wins with unplayable species/background/gods will show up at the bottom of your wins-per-foo tables.

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Post Friday, 18th November 2016, 18:59

Re: New scoreboard

Banners from the latest tournament?
I like stuff like that, not everyone does, and I understand UI clutter, so if you're not interested its cool :p
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Post Friday, 18th November 2016, 22:00

Re: New scoreboard

Eventually it would be nice to make this scoreboard the site that shows tournament stuff, but that's something more devs would be needed to help out with.

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Post Monday, 21st November 2016, 14:05

Re: New scoreboard

Would a IRC-less sequell query interface be too much to ask for?

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Post Saturday, 31st December 2016, 02:38

Re: New scoreboard

Wow awesome.
I just miss runes
and in the "player search" box
please don't filter for every letter gets typed, enter is best friend both for my waiting time and your server load

Thanks for the good job

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Post Saturday, 31st December 2016, 04:30

Re: New scoreboard

An IRC style search box is definitely too complex, but zxc is working on improvements to the search UI.

All the table filtering is done client side, so per-letter filtering is no problem!

I keep feeling unsure about runes column. Between score, runes, xl and turns there is redundancy, but they are all partially useful. And for simplicity, I'd like to avoid having all those columns.

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Post Thursday, 23rd February 2017, 18:16

Re: New scoreboard

1. How do you currently access scoreboard data? (eg the CAO scoreboard, sequell, end of game highscore data) - CAO
2. How often do you use these sources? - fairly often
3. Why do you access this data? - interesting
4. What do you like about our new scoreboard? - lots!
5. What don't you like? - Recent Wins doesn't show you the server
6. What could be improved? - On streak, there should be 3 different tabs: Longest, Open, and Active. Active streaks should check to see if that person has been active on the account in the past month. If not, they are moved to Open (and moved back to Active once they resume activity).
7. Why will/won't this scoreboard replace your use of the other scoreboard data sources? - habit, if it doesn't catch on.

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Post Thursday, 23rd February 2017, 18:18

Re: New scoreboard

So I see that Active gives you a year (and I've proposed a month). Perhaps instead you could change the font color to reflect more recently active streaks.

Halls Hopper

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Post Friday, 24th February 2017, 13:03

Re: New scoreboard

Brannock wrote:The ingame scoreboard is a joke.

Online, this probably should display our personal scores only, at least by default. That way it can be useful for something - tracking your personal progress even if the score number at the end isn't necessarily the most logical number in the world.

Seeing your personal progress is like, the whole point of scoreboards in roguelikes IMO. Only once you've achieved all of your personal goals and "got gud" do you begin to start comparing your sexual organs to those of other bored/triumphant players.
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Post Friday, 14th April 2017, 15:27

Re: New scoreboard

I really like this. It'd be very very good if only the correct morgues were linked to in the non-obvious cases.

I'm not sure how to use GitHub effectively, but the main things I've seen are:

In scoring/modelutils.py, lines 39-41
  Code:
    elif src == "lld":
        prefix = "http://lazy-life.ddo.jp:8080/morgue"
        prefix += "/" + version_url(version)

should be
  Code:
    elif src == "lld":
        prefix = "http://lazy-life.ddo.jp:8080/morgue"

since lld morgues aren't separated by versions.

EDIT:
Actually, I got this wrong. LLD handles morgue urls from trunk games (anything with a0) as just "http://lazy-life.ddo.jp:8080/morgue/...", but morgues from stable versions are "http://lazy-life.ddo.jp:8080/morgue-0.[ver]/...". So, another case to consider.

On a smaller note, lines 46-47
  Code:
    elif src == "cwz":
        prefix = "http://webzook.net/soup/morgue/"

should just get rid of the / at the end. It's not code-breaking, but it results in some ugly URLs.

The function "version_url" in this file (lines 64-72) is a bit pointless, since so much gets chopped off by the "add_game" function in log_import.py (lines 99-101). Specifically:
  Code:
    # Data cleansing
    # Simplify version to 0.17/0.18/etc
    game['v'] = re.match(r"(0.\d+)", game['v']).group()

I'm no python/regex expert, but I guess this is the area where there'd be something like "if game['v'] contains 'a', keep everything up to a0".

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Post Friday, 28th April 2017, 04:05

Re: New scoreboard

Thanks for the feedback. I've fixed all this stuff (well, most of it)!

Scoreboard is down for a week or so while I'm on vacay. A corrupt logfile broke it, and I figure it's a good chance to rebuild the scoring database from scratch.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd May 2017, 23:55

Re: New scoreboard

It would be nice to have past streaks visible on the individual player pages somewhere.

As Brannock suggested upthread, putting a visual indicator on the wins that ties together wins that were streaked might be a nice way to show this.

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Post Wednesday, 24th May 2017, 20:38

Re: New scoreboard

chequers wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:Also god tab for high scores does not make sense in current state. That's the best "Fedhas" game:

  Code:
58783 | Zot:5    | Got the Orb of Zot
...
59347 | D:6      | Became a worshipper of Fedhas Madash
...
59464 | D:$      | Escaped with the Orb!

Tricky. I wouldn't want to forbid god swaps but I guess we need some restriction here. Perhaps "no active wrath" or "worshipped for at least x%"

Imho it would just be best to make the god tab support more than one god. So you could have a god tab display "Gozag, cheibriados" or "Trog, TSO". Gods are listed in the order they were worshipped. Depending on how much space you have to display it, you could only show 2 or 3 gods, and then just say "Trog, TSO, more" if they worshipped 15 gods as some sort of heretic challenge game.

This is clear, gives all the relevant data, and would be a nice feature to be better than CAO's scoreboard. The issue with it is of course having the space to display 2 or 3 god names, but that's your problem :)

Edit: A suggested way to do this is to keep god names fully spelled out if the player only worshipped one god (most games). So "Cheibriados" takes up most of the column's space. If they worshipped two, use shortened names: "Trog, Chei" or "Kiku, Yred". Three or more insert either "more" or "..." after the second: "Chei, Sif, ..." or "Hep, Fedhas, more". Up to you to see what fits - Fedhas or Fed, for example. Ru is your ally in this cause, of course, although I doubt many people would worship Ru and abandon it :)

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3618

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 12:43

Post Wednesday, 24th May 2017, 20:45

Re: New scoreboard

tasonir: For god names, you could use initials only, and give full names as mouse-over. E.g. "XO1" on the page, and mousing over this gives "Xom, Okawaru, The Shining One".

bel

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1539

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Wednesday, 24th May 2017, 21:55

Re: New scoreboard

tasonir wrote:Ru is your ally in this cause, of course, although I doubt many people would worship Ru and abandon it :)

I always worship Ru if I find an altar (and I have no religion): because Ru does not mind abandonment, I can switch to another God if I want to.
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 3802

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Wednesday, 24th May 2017, 22:56

Re: New scoreboard

bel wrote:I always worship Ru if I find an altar (and I have no religion): because Ru does not mind abandonment, I can switch to another God if I want to.

So do you play a lot of characters that make sacrifices with Ru and then switch to another god? Sounds awful, unless you sacrifice magic schools and go Trog.
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VeryAngryFelid

Halls Hopper

Posts: 70

Joined: Wednesday, 13th April 2016, 01:37

Post Friday, 8th September 2017, 19:43

Re: New scoreboard

I think this hasn't updated in a couple months.

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