New Spell - Blessed Aura - Level 8

[skyspire]

Holy Aura
School: Charms
Level 8

On casting, creates a Holy Aura that makes stealth impossible. This Aura will shatter on Torment, preventing the Torment damage, but losing the aura.



The purpose of this spell is to provide balance by making Torment resistance possible for non-necromantically inclined races or those wishing to pursue a more "holy path" instead of dabbling in more evil magick. This balance allows torment defensive magic to be in more than just the evil Necromantic school. It is still inferior to Lich form, since the Aura gets broken like Shroud of Golebria in just one shot.

Yes, at present this spell description would only appeal to those wanting to play extended .. Pan, etc. So to give it a small buff, maybe provide a defense to undead and unholy similar to amulet of warding provides some defense vs summoned creatures.

Actually it would be cool if there was an opposing school of magic to Necromancy.. just like fire / ice and earth / air are opposites. If there was such a school, a spell or one similar should be in that school.

[Galefury]

You forgot to put the spell level in the title.

Also this is probably not gonna fly because halos are kind of TSO's thing. And they don't even protect you from torment. Also, current crawl definition of "holy" is pretty much just "stuff strongly affiliated with the good gods, especially TSO".

[skyspire]

well we can drop the visible aura and just make it give you --Stealth

And change the spell title to Blessed Aura. I always wondered why there is an evil school of magic but no good school. Seems unbalanced that way.

Necronimicon is always considered Black Magic.. but where is the White Magic?

[MDvedh]

I love the idea of white magic but I can't imagine what we could add there?
Healing? Ely has that and it's overpowered.
Light aura? TSO is watching over you.
Some evil-affecting spells? Zin's recitation is here.
The only one I can imagine is some light-beam (like bolt of fire/cold/draining), and either we need LOTS of designing or just forget good magic.
Also, most of fantasy universes say magic is something mysterious and evil, any sort of magic.

[XuaXua]

A "white/life" school may be parallel to necromancy, but seems redundant to diety effects. Granted, the same could be said of Necromancy vs the multiple death gods.

[galehar]

Holy effects come from good gods, not magic. A Holy spell or spell school doesn't make sense.

[TeshiAlair]

It would be kind of neat to see relics of certain gods that grant abilities similar to or thematically aligned with different gods, but using them reduces your piety with your current god by a star, so they are best for emergency use only.

[Lasty]

I don't know that we're meant to assume that Necromancy is always evil -- spells like Regeneration and Dispel Undead don't seem expressly evil. The good gods all dislike all Necromancy, but they tend to be a little overzealous in general.

I do think this is more likely to be accepted if it can be flavored in a non-holy/blessed way, but I'm not sure the base concept will fly, either. You never want to cast this when in LOS of a tormenting creature, because when they torment you, you just end up where you started but down 8 MP, which makes it yet another charm to cast before a fight. Further, as you pointed out, there's already a spell that does this effect better, but with drawbacks.

Also, if this became good enough that it significantly helped against torment, it would constitute another must-learn single-school charm spell that you cast before hard fights (though only in Extended), and I know I'd rather see less of those.

[DracheReborn]

The purpose of this spell is to provide balance by making Torment resistance possible for non-necromantically inclined races or those wishing to pursue a more "holy path" instead of dabbling in more evil magick.

Well, you could get some rTorment already through Statue Form, which probably isn't evil magic (unless you're with Zin). Of course, some people say Statue Form isn't very good, so maybe you could propose something to improve it instead?

I agree with Lasty though that the spell idea isn't very good. Renewing the shield every time it goes out sounds tedious. Maybe if it works like Shroud and doesn't break 100% of the time... (shrug)

I also like the idea of a Life Magic school, but it will probably step on the toes of the good gods and maybe Fedhas too. Stuff like Regen and Dispel Undead would make sense there, I think.

[nicolae]

Assuming for the moment that there needs to be more ways to deal with Torment, there's probably a solution that's more interesting than "just ignore torment". Spells and other powers that work indirectly or obliquely against a problem seem more interesting than simply cancelling an effect. Like, say, using a scroll of fog to deal with Torment, since you can't get Tormented by something that's not in your LOS.

[Sandman25]

Perhaps there can be a spell which decreases damage to everything (the idea is taken from eador) so you will have longer battles.

[Zammy]

Holy effects come from good gods, not magic. A Holy spell or spell school doesn't make sense.

In the same manner you could argue that some unholy effect, such as transforming yourself into a lich, should be effects of evil gods only.
The problem isn't, as I see it, that holy effects could not exist as spells, but rather in how crawl is constrcuted.
After all, many many many many games have successfully presented holy spells.

The reason I don't see holy spells working in crawl is that allmost everything you are against in extend game is evil. There is virtually no good and only few neutral foes in extend. Hence holy spells combined with good god powers would probably be rather overpowered.
Unless the whole good vs evil set up had serious remake then I really can't see crawl getting it working and balanced set of holy spells.

Just my 2 cents.

[and into]

Holy effects come from good gods, not magic. A Holy spell or spell school doesn't make sense.

In the same manner you could argue that some unholy effect, such as transforming yourself into a lich, should be effects of evil gods only.
The problem isn't, as I see it, that holy effects could not exist as spells, but rather in how crawl is constrcuted.
After all, many many many many games have successfully presented holy spells.

The reason I don't see holy spells working in crawl is that allmost everything you are against in extend game is evil. There is virtually no good and only few neutral foes in extend. Hence holy spells combined with good god powers would probably be rather overpowered.
Unless the whole good vs evil set up had serious remake then I really can't see crawl getting it working and balanced set of holy spells.

Just my 2 cents.

If something is only good in extended, even if it is very good there, it is kind of by definition not overpowered. Because extended is optional, and even if you want to do it, you first have to get through dungeon + branches before having access to "extended." And at some point you still have to do Zot.

A lot of effects that in other games are handled through "holy magic" or white magic or whatever are instead handled in Crawl through god abilities. I don't see what is wrong with that. (Also, some of those effects—regeneration, dispel undead, control undead (pseudo-"turn undead" effect)—come through necromancy, which I've always thought is pretty cool, and helps istinguish Crawl from the many other games that have similar spells.)

Of course Crawl could get a working and balanced set of holy spells, it would just be a question of how the specific spells in that school were designed. But what is the point of specifically making "put a bunch of holy spells into Crawl" a design goal? Simply in order to make Crawl like a bunch of other games? That seems to me a drawback, not a benefit.

If someone came up with a bunch of really interesting, fun, novel ideas for spells that had a holy theme, then we'd have something to talk about, because there'd be a clear incentive for thinking about how to add those holy spell effects into the game. (More realistically, the best ones would be added in the form of new god abilities or maybe a new rod or something, rather than a totally new spell school.) But otherwise, the interest in trying to add "holy spells" per se is like someone saying, "Hey, we should add a new weapon class of scepters into the game—I don't have any specific idea of what these new weapons would be like, nor what they'd bring to the table that isn't already in Crawl, but I think the idea is kind of neat in the abstract so let's try to fill in the details."

[reaver]

Holy spells actually used to exist. They were removed because every single one of them overlapped with God Abilities. (The reason their miscasts effects aren't still around is that "holy" magic didn't have them. The last traces of the school were removed in this commit.).

Also, unholy magic has more design space since the game is centered on killing things. I guess you could re-flavor Charms to be holy magic but I don't see any reason to. In fact, I see little reason for Necromancy to be "unholy" magic either. Necromancy has plenty of potential to be good, (use Revivification/Death's Door/Vampiric Draining/Regeneration to save somebody near death, use zombies/simulacra/abominations to build an orphanage, dispel evil undead, don't waste your last bit of steak by sublimating it for mana, etc.) while something like conjurations has no purpose but to hurt things.

On the actual spell, Torment is already handled in tactically interesting ways like blocking LOS, killing the Tormenter, stealth, rN, etc. Adding a spell which just deals with it without an interesting drawback like lichform wastes all these choices.

[Igxfl]

Necromancy *is* Life Magic, or, at least, all life-related spell effects are already Necromancy. Separating out effects like healing and Dispel Undead from Necromancy would be like taking Cure Poison out of Poison Magic. Currently, Necromancy seems morally neutral, if somewhat disgusting, and the good gods' total rejection of it helps keep their claim to absolute goodness ambiguous. One interesting thing to notice is that the good gods condemn all renewable sources of healing besides themselves -- maybe they just don't like the competition.

[galehar]

In the same manner you could argue that some unholy effect, such as transforming yourself into a lich, should be effects of evil gods only.

Maybe you could. Or not. What's the point anyway? I don't see why necromancy should be linked with evil gods. And being the magic of life and death, it doesn't need an opposite school either.

The problem isn't, as I see it, that holy effects could not exist as spells, but rather in how crawl is constrcuted.

What problem?

After all, many many many many games have successfully presented holy spells.

Are you referring to priests casting divine magic? They can cast those spells because they worship a specific god. The god is powering the magic. In crawl, you could have that by having spells which you can only learn and cast when worshiping a specific god. A bit like god abilities...
Holy spells which you can cast regardless of your religion don't make sense. If there isn't a god powering the magic, what's holy about them?

[nicolae]

If there isn't a god powering the magic, what's holy about them?

The first word you say when you get to find and cast them, clearly. The second word is something like "crap" or "shit". Or "mackerel", if you're square.

[skyspire]

In the same manner you could argue that some unholy effect, such as transforming yourself into a lich, should be effects of evil gods only.

Maybe you could. Or not. What's the point anyway? I don't see why necromancy should be linked with evil gods. And being the magic of life and death, it doesn't need an opposite school either.

The Webster definition of necromancy is: "1: the practice of talking to the spirits of dead people
2: the use of magic powers especially for evil purposes."

The Oxford definition of necromancy is:
"the supposed practice of communicating with the dead, especially in order to predict the future:
alchemy, necromancy, and other magic practices
witchcraft, sorcery, or black magic in general."

If it is the magic of life and death than it should not be called Necromancy. The fact is, that it is the School of Death, so it follows that to provide balance, it would be great to have a School of Life, where all the spells are accepted by the good Gods.

In extended, it can be argued that without Necromancy the game is much more challenging. Zigs, for example, are more easily completed with lich form, which cannot be cast with the good gods. Yes, you can get rNeg+++ with TSO, but you can also get this with equipment. Yes TSO can give you Holy Wrath, but you can also get Holy Wrath from drops.

I don't know that we're meant to assume that Necromancy is always evil -- spells like Regeneration and Dispel Undead don't seem expressly evil. The good gods all dislike all Necromancy, but they tend to be a little overzealous in general.

EDIT: Aside from Sif Muna and Xom, only evil gods, or gods of destruction grant spell books or spells. If Necronomicon is not evil, then why does only an Evil god grant this spellbook? Galehar and Lasty your arguements are deeply flawed.

[duvessa]

Only evil gods, or gods of destruction grant spell books or spells.

neither sif muna nor xom are evil, and either one can give you any necromancy spell in the game

[Hirsch I]

One interesting thing to notice is that the good gods condemn all renewable sources of healing besides themselves -- maybe they just don't like the competition.

that does sound like a god.
but there should be a god that approves the use of evil magic for good ends. a dark paladin, armed with Dispel undead and an army of summoned demons that unwillingly help him purge evil. even demonspawn and the undead could worship him, after all, it is your good intentions that matters.

[nicolae]

but there should be a god that approves the use of evil magic for good ends.

There's like a dozen of them, since "good ends" in a Crawl context mostly just means "killing things that have it coming".

[MDvedh]

Let's forget about holy spells and return to OP's proposal.
The whole point of this spell is a bit of torment nerf (which probably won't fly)

I don't like the idea of nerfing torment because:
a) Torment isn't THAT overpowered, it provides some tactical variation and challenge in end-game.
b) There is a bunch of ways to deal with torment which have some drawbacks (as lichform, DDoor, Kiku worship), and we probably don't need one which doesn't have any drawbacks other than 8 mana and couple of levels in charms.

Torment works just ok and I don't think we need some changes for that.

I'd rather tweak hellfire because one half of me doesn't get why it should be irresistible (the other half gets it anyways, so we probably don't need changes there too)

[galehar]

If it is the magic of life and death than it should not be called Necromancy.

Why should we be forced to stand by official definitions and tropes? I like that crawl's Necromancy isn't just about raising dead and has a deeper theme.

The fact is, that it is the School of Death

The fact is that it is the school which has the only healing spells in the game. And those spells have names like regeneration and revivification, how can it not be the school of life and death?

so it follows that to provide balance, it would be great to have a School of Life

I find it much more interesting to have a dual themed necromancy school, with healing spells which have drawbacks. What spells would you put in a school of life? Heal?

If Necronomicon is not evil, then why does only an Evil god grant this spellbook? Galehar and Lasty your arguements are deeply flawed.

I never said necromancy isn't evil, it obviously is (good gods hate it). The way I see it is that tinkering with life itself can only be done by gods or by evil necromantic magic.

[reaver]

The way I see it is that tinkering with life itself can only be done by gods or by evil necromantic magic.

What about potions of healing?

I agree with most of your post, it's just that bit struck me as really odd.

[nicolae]

What about potions of healing?

How do you think potions of healing get made in the first place?

[DracheReborn]

What about potions of healing?

How do you think potions of healing get made in the first place?

They're obviously Elyvilon's tears (or other bodily fluid of your choice).

FR rename healing pots as Tears of Elyvilon

[duvessa]

What about resting?

[Hirsch I]

resting is highly overpowered. it is almost a nobrainer: after you get it, it becomes the main healing method for almost every character. I'd suggest resting get removed or nerfed.