Recognition of well designed Monsters

[Hirsch I]

there is lots of monsters that I love, despite they killing me. this thread os for appreciation of such monsters, to break the chain of incessant bitching about how everything is broke. for instance:

Mennas. I love this guy. even killed him twice, and that was some of the best battles I ever fought.
Vault guards in general.
Hidras. nice change from "tab tab tab" with axe in lair
Mara. finding it is never trivial.
wich monsters do you guys like?

[Sandman25]

I think well designed monsters should provide unusual experience in groups with other monsters. So for me well designed monsters are Iron Convokers, Vault Warden, Flayed Ghosts, Draconian Shifter, Ghost Moth, Orc Priest.
Bad designed monsters are too hard even 1 vs 1 for some builds so they include Naga Warrior (constriction and high HP, rune lock forces you to fight them early), Hill Giant (will it miss or kill you in 2 hits with 45 damage each), Tengu Reaver (I would not object if it was ZoT monster).

[Sar]

Tengu Reavers are awesome. Hill Giants are just ogres 2.0 (so they're OK). Naga warrirors are slow so unless you're a Naga or a Chei follower you don't have to melee them. Shifters eh, blinking me around. I do like new Vault humanoid enemies though.

[Sandman25]

Tengu Reavers are awesome. Hill Giants are just ogres 2.0 (so they're OK). Naga warrirors are slow so unless you're a Naga or a Chei follower you don't have to melee them. Shifters eh, blinking me around. I do like new Vault humanoid enemies though.

I think you like Tengu Reavers because you like challenges. They are very dangerous casters and also not that weak in melee (with good weapon), EV 17 and up to 102 HP means the fight will not be short. Right, Hill Giants are as bad as Ogres.

[Hirsch I]

I think you like Tengu Reavers because you like challenges.

well, if one does not like challenges, one should not play crawl, am I right?
monsters that make you fight for your life are nice overall.

[duvessa]

Giant gecko, hobgoblin, sun demon.

If ranged AI and invisibility didn't exist, I would append the following: orc wizard, orc priest, fire drake, ogre mage, lich, electric golem, maybe stone giant, fire giant, titan.
I would also append blink frogs if distortion weren't special-cased for them.

There are no uniques that I like.

[Sar]

Liches/ancient liches are the best.

[Klown]

Dowan and Duvessa. Cool to have a dual-unique threat with some back story and a smart combination of magic and melee. Their fights always seem fair as well.

[Sandman25]

There are no uniques that I like.

Could you please describe an unique which you'd like?

[MyOtheHedgeFox]

Gnolls, when they appear, become a rite of passage. The first challenge, and they come in packs, and they are fast. Defeating them is always a great relief -- and barely defeating them for the first time in your Crawl experience means you, as a player, are finally qualified to reach the Lair.

[Hirsch I]

Giant gecko, hobgoblin, sun demon.

If ranged AI and invisibility didn't exist, I would append the following: orc wizard, orc priest, fire drake, ogre mage, lich, electric golem, maybe stone giant, fire giant, titan.
I would also append blink frogs if distortion weren't special-cased for them.

There are no uniques that I like.

Duvessa is sounding like Donald.

[ontoclasm]

Bad designed monsters are too hard even 1 vs 1 for some builds so they include Naga Warrior (constriction and high HP, rune lock forces you to fight them early), Hill Giant (will it miss or kill you in 2 hits with 45 damage each), Tengu Reaver (I would not object if it was ZoT monster).

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[Mankeli]

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Line agre turtle!

[reaver]

I define a good monster as one which makes me think more than normal while still fitting the other design goals, so a partial list would be: Trolls, including most of the special Deep Troll ones, Centaurs, Drakes and Dragons, Dryads , Orb and Jumping Spiders, Kraken, Elemental Wellsprings, Ghost Moths, Hydra, Lost Souls, Moths of Wrath, Necrophages, Vault defense force, Boulder Beetles, Rock Worms, Basilisks, Vampire Mosquitos, Nagas.

[XuaXua]

There are no uniques that I like.

Duvessa is sounding like Donald.

Especially lately.

[dpeg]

I define a good monster as one which makes me think more than normal while still fitting the other design goals

That's a definition I'd subscribe to, but as I see it, some monsters can shine only because others happily (or perhaps grudgingly) accept their roles as meat sacks.

I like monsters that can completely how a randomly assembled monster set works on you. Moths and eyes are good examples, but also tramplers and constricters. Also, I have never invented any uniques (I think) but I like almost all of them -- the current set of uniques is so much better than what we had a few years ago.

[pratamawirya]

Uniques:
1. Sojobo;
2. Mara (yeah he shouldn't blink around, but other than that he's cool);
3. Nessos (he's pretty annoying but I dunno why I kinda like fighting him, maybe because the reward is really good (flaming longbow));
4. Jori.

Non-uniques:
1. Vault wardens (them locking doors is one of those cool WTF moments);
2. Spriggan defenders;
3. Greater nagas;
4. Deep Elf Death Mages.

Giant gecko, hobgoblin, sun demon.

If ranged AI and invisibility didn't exist, I would append the following: orc wizard, orc priest, fire drake, ogre mage, lich, electric golem, maybe stone giant, fire giant, titan.
I would also append blink frogs if distortion weren't special-cased for them.

There are no uniques that I like.

I guess this is the mindset of the top players. Crawl is weird.

[Abominae]

I've always been partial to Cacodemons. Mutations are annoying, but I really like bolt of energy for its digging effect. By extension, I also like Deep Troll EE's. Newer Ereshkigal has been my favorite unique for quite some time now.

[duvessa]

There are no uniques that I like.

Could you please describe an unique which you'd like?

Same criteria as any other monster. For example, if stone giants and orc wizards didn't already exist, then Sigmund and Polyphemus would be on the second list. But stone giants and orc wizards do exist and I consider redundant monsters to be the opposite of good design so those uniques aren't on that list.

[Sandman25]

Same criteria as any other monster. For example, if stone giants and orc wizards didn't already exist, then Sigmund and Polyphemus would be on the second list. But stone giants and orc wizards do exist and I consider redundant monsters to be the opposite of good design so those uniques aren't on that list.

I think main points of unique is that it can be much more dangerous than usual monsters. We want to have challenge in every fight (otherwise it's a boring game) but we cannot have 10 Mennas'es or Jori's on a floor for obvious reasons.

[reaver]

I think main points of unique is that it can be much more dangerous than usual monsters. We want to have challenge in every fight (otherwise it's a boring game) but we cannot have 10 Mennas'es or Jori's on a floor for obvious reasons.

I think the main point of a unique is a monster which just doesn't work if there is more than one of them. Maurice, Boris, Mara, and Dowan/Duvessa would prompt annoying book keeping, Mennas and Kirke restricts too many options, everybody would just ignore Roxannes, Nessos would be a massive inconstancy for little gain, etc. There are also some uniques that are just part of Crawl (I don't think duvessa will get Sigmund removed any time soon) and a few early game ones function to teach new players certain mechanics. (Menkaure is an early introduction to Torment, ljyb wand, Grinder holiness, Erolcha Banishment/Haste/LCS, Eustachio summoning, etc.) There are quite a few uniques that don't fit these criteria but I think of them as bad uniques.

[Sandman25]

I think the main point of a unique is a monster which just doesn't work if there is more than one of them. Maurice, Boris, Mara, and Dowan/Duvessa would prompt annoying book keeping, Mennas and Kirke restricts too many options, everybody would just ignore Roxannes, Nessos would be a massive inconstancy for little gain, etc. There are also some uniques that are just part of Crawl (I don't think duvessa will get Sigmund removed any time soon) and a few early game ones function to teach new players certain mechanics. (Menkaure is an early introduction to Torment, ljyb wand, Grinder holiness, Erolcha Banishment/Haste/LCS, Eustachio summoning, etc.) There are quite a few uniques that don't fit these criteria but I think of them as bad uniques.

I think "doesn't work if there is more than one of them" is closely related to "can be much more dangerous than usual monsters" so you are basically just proving my point. Good point on teaching certain mechanic, though I am not sure it worked in previous versions where player could not see which spells monsters can have so even if you know from Erolcha what banishment is it does not help you to deal with Ogre Magi or Louise because you merely don't know they have banishment too.
Sorry, my English is not good enough to understand "Maurice, Boris, Mara, and Dowan/Duvessa would prompt annoying book keeping", I know meaning of every word here but the whole sentence does not make any sense to me.

[MDvedh]

I think the main point of unique is obtaining unique (huh) mechanics, which we don't encounter normally.

So good uniques list:
Cerebov, Lom Lobon, Mnoleg;
Mara;
Mennas;
Nikola;
Nessos;
Dowan & Duvessa.

Not that unique-ish but also good designed both in flavour and game mechanics are:
Sigmund;
Margery;
Crazy Yiuf;
Menkaure;
Grinder.

[Grimm]

I like monsters that can completely how a randomly assembled monster set works on you. Moths and eyes are good examples, but also tramplers and constricters.

Yeah this. Force multipliers are interesting.

I like all uniques, because when I see them, it's all "Shit just got personal, yo".

[rebthor]

Gnolls, when they appear, become a rite of passage. The first challenge, and they come in packs, and they are fast. Defeating them is always a great relief -- and barely defeating them for the first time in your Crawl experience means you, as a player, are finally qualified to reach the Lair.

Gnolls are not fast, they are speed 10 like most every other monster. What makes gnolls threatening is they often come with polearms which means stand in a corridor and fight isn't the best solution.

[rebthor]

I like Boris' flavor but since there's really no point in fighting him over and over and over again, I just drop and exclusion on him. Maybe after I've cleared out everywhere I plan to go, I kill him for giggles but usually I just leave the exclusion.

[Confidence Interval]

What makes gnolls threatening is they often come with polearms which means stand in a corridor and fight isn't the best solution.

They also have that silent 'g'. That's pretty scary when you're low level.

[tompliss]

Gnolls, when they appear, become a rite of passage. The first challenge, and they come in packs, and they are fast. Defeating them is always a great relief -- and barely defeating them for the first time in your Crawl experience means you, as a player, are finally qualified to reach the Lair.

Gnolls are not fast, they are speed 10 like most every other monster. What makes gnolls threatening is they often come with polearms which means stand in a corridor and fight isn't the best solution.

And that's part of what is fun with them : You have to change your strat if you don't feel ready for them, and the first time you leet them, you're nearly never sure

Deep trolls packs, with their shaman and EE are fun, too, even if I think they appear a little too late (and now, with the depths, they're on the same levels than Fire giants ... :/ )

Dowan and duvessa, of course, and Eustachio, because he's cool and his tile is awesome. Grinder, because I always try to lure him away from weapons and that's a fun mechanic.

Oh, and boulder beetle, because it's always fun to try and dodge them, especially when I'm a Chei follower

[Klown]

Sigmund goes invisible, confuses you, and ohk's you with his scythe.

[rebthor]

Oh, and boulder beetle, because it's always fun to try and dodge them, especially when I'm a Chei follower

IMO, boulder beetles as they exist now are one of the worst monsters because 1) when they're not next to you, you can move to dodge them and 2) they have a BS attack where they "roll" 0 squares, smash into you and do an insane amount of non-dodgeable damage. Hope you have decent AC!

[MyOtheHedgeFox]

Please do not nerf Cave Sonic Beetle.

[rchandra]

IMO, boulder beetles as they exist now are one of the worst monsters because 1) when they're not next to you, you can move to dodge them and 2) they have a BS attack where they "roll" 0 squares, smash into you and do an insane amount of non-dodgeable damage. Hope you have decent AC!

Or SH. (shield of reflection is really nice!)

I like the move-to-dodge against boulder beetles when there are other enemies around, it gives a choice between doing what's best for the beetle or what's best for the others. When the boulder beetle is alone, dodging like a matador feels a little silly.

[tompliss]

When the boulder beetle is alone, dodging like a matador feels a little silly.

I would wear a -5 cloak if it is red-colored over a +3 cloak of preservation just to be sure that boulder beetle charge me !

[Hirsch I]

I still remember how I found a Boulder Beetle the first time. it was in a trap vault on d5, IIRC.
i died.
but it is still pretty nice of a monster ^^

[zrn]

I think well designed monsters should provide unusual experience in groups with other monsters. So for me well designed monsters are Iron Convokers, Vault Warden, Flayed Ghosts, Draconian Shifter, Ghost Moth, Orc Priest.
Bad designed monsters are too hard even 1 vs 1 for some builds so they include Naga Warrior (constriction and high HP, rune lock forces you to fight them early), Hill Giant (will it miss or kill you in 2 hits with 45 damage each), Tengu Reaver (I would not object if it was ZoT monster).

Why do you always capitalize zot like 'ZoT'?

[Hirsch I]

It means Zone of Terror.

[Psiweapon]

Mara : Everytime I notice him, I shit my pants, and GTFO at full speed. Then I spend a branch and a half or so calculating exactly WHEN will I be able to successfully face him and/or hoping for Clarity. Then I don my brown pants, and smash his demonic furry face in. Un?Fortunately the new summoner mechanics make the final fight with mara 50% more disappointing.

Nergalle : It's hard to NOT have an epic fight against her, what with the spectral summons and Death's Door. I have battled her inside an immolation inferno, and it felt A W E S O M E. The goddamned bitch just doesn't die.

Erolcha : Everytime I see her the threat of banishment just makes me kill her with absolute prejudice. And if she does manage to banish me, coming out of the abyss with flaming revenge in my eyes is cool too. I don't know why she's called Erolcha instead of Elrocha, though.

Basically anything that's obscenely powerful enough at the moment you meet them that turns a fight into an epic battle with kilothaums of magic.

[Tedronai]

I really like Hell Sentinels. They are universally dangerous to pretty much every race/class combination and really spice up the end-game

For the uniques I have to concur with the choice of Mara. Additionally I really like Lamia. Her set of spells are an interesting combination which forces the player to carefully think about how to approach/avoid her.

[Jarlyk]

Psyche is fun the first time you fight her, thinking she's easy, and then she does this:

  Code:

  5505 | D:8      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 65/67 MP: 8/8
  5578 | D:8      | Cast into the Abyss (Psyche)
  5626 | Abyss:1  | Noticed an orange demon
  5632 | Abyss:1  | Noticed an orange demon
  5639 | Abyss:1  | Noticed a wretched star
  5642 | Abyss:1  | Noticed a large abomination
  5652 | Abyss:1  | Noticed a tentacled starspawn
  5671 | Abyss:1  | Noticed a smoke demon
  5673 | Abyss:1  | Noticed a hellwing
  5675 | Abyss:1  | Noticed a smoke demon
  5710 | Abyss:1  | Found a corrupted altar of Lugonu.
  5759 | Abyss:1  | Noticed a red very ugly thing
  5765 | Abyss:1  | Noticed a hellion
  5765 | Abyss:1  | Killed from afar by a hellion


[tompliss]

I really like Hell Sentinels. They are universally dangerous to pretty much every race/class combination and really spice up the end-game

And they have one of the most badass tile.
I nearly see them like Pandemonium version of missile-launcher mechas, with their hellfire and high AC

[Tiktacy]

My favorite unique is definitely lom lobon. He was also the first uber-unique I ever met, I saw his head for he first time in tiles and I was like "OF SHI-" and summoned like, 4 angels.

[Psiweapon]

I really like Hell Sentinels. They are universally dangerous to pretty much every race/class combination and really spice up the end-game

And they have one of the most badass tile.
I nearly see them like Pandemonium version of missile-launcher mechas, with their hellfire and high AC

If they aren't long-forgotten or planeshifted WH40K Chaos Obliterators, I don't know what they are.