Poisoning monsters


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Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 21st January 2014, 00:44

Poisoning monsters

crate wrote:Why is damage-over-time poison a good thing to allow players to have in the first place? What does it add to the game (that is beneficial) over just having immediate damage only? Personally I would just remove it entirely.

Being different in a bad way just to be different isn't a good thing.


....you... want to remove poison? Lol. Are people just bored and running out of things to remove?

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Post Tuesday, 21st January 2014, 01:11

Re: Poisoning monsters

King_jelly wrote:
crate wrote:Why is damage-over-time poison a good thing to allow players to have in the first place? What does it add to the game (that is beneficial) over just having immediate damage only? Personally I would just remove it entirely.

Being different in a bad way just to be different isn't a good thing.


....you... want to remove poison? Lol. Are people just bored and running out of things to remove?

Anything that doesn't lead to interesting decision making by the player should be removed, especially if it also adds tedium. I don't know if poison fits these criteria but it seems reasonable enough to make a case for it.

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Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 21st January 2014, 02:05

Re: Poisoning monsters

There comes a point when the focus is too much on making the game more an more efficient and less fun.

There's a reason why people make fun of what DCSS has been turning into... They call it a TAB button masher, action RPG, etc etc.... Just sayin.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 21st January 2014, 02:28

Re: Poisoning monsters

oh don't worry if I had complete control of crawl design (as opposed to the practically none that I have, for good reasons) there are many things I would remove in addition to poison!

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Post Tuesday, 21st January 2014, 02:30

Re: Poisoning monsters

King_jelly wrote:They call it a TAB button masher, action RPG, etc etc.... Just sayin.


These are bad things?
take it easy

Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 21st January 2014, 03:06

Re: Poisoning monsters

crate wrote:oh don't worry if I had complete control of crawl design (as opposed to the practically none that I have, for good reasons) there are many things I would remove in addition to poison!


Thank goodness you're not in control then. Jeez

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Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 21st January 2014, 03:07

Re: Poisoning monsters

Arrhythmia wrote:
King_jelly wrote:They call it a TAB button masher, action RPG, etc etc.... Just sayin.


These are bad things?


To describe an RL... yes.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 21st January 2014, 03:44

Re: Poisoning monsters

I encourage everyone to check out this guy's post history.

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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 21st January 2014, 04:13

Re: Poisoning monsters

King_jelly wrote:There's a reason why people make fun of what DCSS has been turning into... They call it a TAB button masher, action RPG, etc etc.... Just sayin.

Huh, I don't know where you've been hanging out. Mostly, people in my parts of the world call it a popcorn popper. A few people say it's a cat toy and one person insists it's a mauve F-22 Raptor.

Man, does our water taste funny lately.
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Tuesday, 21st January 2014, 14:15

Re: Poisoning monsters

Poison: A thing that reduces the amount of time you spend pressing the same key over and over

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Post Tuesday, 21st January 2014, 14:43

Re: Poisoning monsters

I think crawl design is a little bit complexity/excess phobic in terms of gameplay. Monsters, races, and gods have become more interesting and varied, but the core gameplay itself seems to get staler or remain stale, with the exception of perhaps the new evocables.
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Post Tuesday, 21st January 2014, 18:26

Re: Poisoning monsters

duvessa wrote:I encourage everyone to check out this guy's post history.

Excellent point.

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Post Tuesday, 21st January 2014, 18:30

Re: Poisoning monsters

I think crawl design is a little bit complexity/excess phobic in terms of gameplay. Monsters, races, and gods have become more interesting and varied, but the core gameplay itself seems to get staler or remain stale, with the exception of perhaps the new evocables.


What are some recent examples of gameplay becoming staler (ok, except forest, that shouldn't affect your crawl experience too much though)? Also, races, gods and monsters are as "core" as crawl gameplay gets so I don't know what else you could be referring to.
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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 21st January 2014, 18:38

Re: Poisoning monsters

Brown chunks don't make you sick anymore. And instadeath from stat loss. And permanent malmutations from monsters with poly wands. Also that one spell that would turn monsters into pulsating lumps.

Without those things, crawl's gameplay is ruined for me forever. FOREVER I TELL YOU
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 21st January 2014, 18:54

Re: Poisoning monsters

Don't forget Mountain dwarfs and victory dancing, brown chunks don't even make you nauseated any longer. OH NOES!

Actually though, I do feel like the current trend is to make crawl a simpler game with less to think about, Personally I don't think that's a good thing (Not that those things that were removed were definitely good parts of the game, but I feel like the more we de-complicate the game, the less interesting it gets for me, and I'd certainly like to see attempts to re-complicate it in fun (rather than tedious) ways.)
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 21st January 2014, 19:00

Re: Poisoning monsters

Wait - what happened to Mountain Dwarves?

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Post Tuesday, 21st January 2014, 19:06

Re: Poisoning monsters

they shaved and became halflings

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 21st January 2014, 19:12

Re: Poisoning monsters

sexy

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Post Tuesday, 21st January 2014, 20:51

Re: Poisoning monsters

Siegurt wrote:Don't forget Mountain dwarfs and victory dancing, brown chunks don't even make you nauseated any longer. OH NOES!

Actually though, I do feel like the current trend is to make crawl a simpler game with less to think about, Personally I don't think that's a good thing (Not that those things that were removed were definitely good parts of the game, but I feel like the more we de-complicate the game, the less interesting it gets for me, and I'd certainly like to see attempts to re-complicate it in fun (rather than tedious) ways.)

I dunno, to me "things to think about" kind of blurs the line between two things. There's category A, things which one must be conscious of, but the "optimal" thing is always the same, so they lead to having to hold something in your head while not truly thinking about it, if that makes sense. Things like brown chunks causing nausea fell into this category - nausea added tactical decisions to eating which would almost never change the result of a fight, but still required one to think about nausea and chunks more often, leaving less, uhh, "brain space" to think about other things. To me this manifests as tedium and I am happy it is gone - I rarely found myself satisfied at making the right decision about whether to eat a brown chunk. My heuristic is that if I could easily program the entirety of my decision making process for a given game element, I'd rather that element be automated or removed. Taking up space in my working memory isn't the same thing as thinking, if that makes any sense.

Then there's category B, decisions which one must truly weigh the tradeoffs of, based on incomplete information about what one has found in the dungeon so far. These are the sort of "things to think about" which I value when playing, and why I play this game in the first place. Questions like "Should I start running now, or stay and try and take out the really dangerous monster who might kill me while I run first", and "would it benefit me more if I started training up charms now, or tried to get an AOE spell online" are interesting and definitely worth keeping around. I definitely am happy to have more of these, not that I find it lacking.

In general the things removed by the devs have been from category A and so I am pleased that our views seems to be aligned on this matter, even if they are more conservative than I would be with the reigns.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 21st January 2014, 21:13

Re: Poisoning monsters

King_jelly wrote:There's a reason why people make fun of what DCSS has been turning into

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZnAu8ixrviU#t=3

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Post Tuesday, 21st January 2014, 21:26

Re: Poisoning monsters

damage-over-time poison is really the only way I see poison working in any RPG or any game for that matter. It's pretty balanced; tougher monsters have an easier time shrugging it off, and plenty of them are resistant or immune by type or otherwise.

I find it to be a great equalizer early on when temple-diving or doing other potentially dangerous things at low levels.

Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 21st January 2014, 23:10

Re: Poisoning monsters

"Damn it, I died to a centaur on D4 again. Well, on the bright side, I really managed my hunger levels well this game, pretty stoked about that. Fourteen rations in my inventory. Sweet."

"If I never move, I cannot possibly win the game. But if I do move, I might walk into a mechanical trap. Decisions, decisions...."

"Hmm... If I don't play my cards well here, that harpy pack can kill me in five or six turns—and eat my choko!"

Yeah a bit of straw-manning, but seriously—good riddance to this type of thing!
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Post Tuesday, 21st January 2014, 23:30

Re: Poisoning monsters

I thought this was a thread about the moral implications of injecting dungeon denizens with deadly venoms. I am disappoint.
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Post Tuesday, 21st January 2014, 23:34

Re: Poisoning monsters

TehDruid wrote:I thought this was a thread about the moral implications of injecting dungeon denizens with deadly venoms. I am disappoint.


Ultimately pretty much everything you do to the inhabitants of the dungeon is at the very least a moral gray area, if not a moral blood-red area.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Saturday, 1st February 2014, 08:43

Re: Poisoning monsters

duvessa wrote:I encourage everyone to check out this guy's post history.


He's been making the same arguments for two years.

years
take it easy

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Post Saturday, 1st February 2014, 08:57

Re: Poisoning monsters

Arrhythmia wrote:
duvessa wrote:I encourage everyone to check out this guy's post history.


He's been making the same arguments for two years.

years



Thank you. I now finally understand what the hell is going on with the metatextual BS over here

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 1st February 2014, 09:25

Re: Poisoning monsters

I remember when he first showed up during 0.6-a and got banned from the dev wiki after one edit. Unfortunately it looks like XuaXua deleted the page?

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Post Sunday, 2nd February 2014, 00:33

Re: Poisoning monsters

stab, run, stab run. Run rhymes with fun.

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