Generic Brainstorming!


If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it belongs here. Also, come here if you just need to get hammered.

User avatar

Sewers Scotsman

Posts: 3192

Joined: Friday, 13th May 2011, 08:47

Location: Ultima Thule

Post Thursday, 8th December 2011, 16:30

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

Grimm wrote:What was Sartre's favourite build.

Human Wanderer, perhaps, based on the notion that we are formed by our actions rather than by inherent characteristics.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 205

Joined: Sunday, 25th September 2011, 15:41

Location: Somewhere on the surface of Sol.

Post Thursday, 8th December 2011, 17:15

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

Randomly named uniques... ala the random pan lords. Maybe 2 varieties of them a melee variant, and a casting variant. General difficulty level could be below the non random uniques who would be found at the same depth.

Also: we NEED a unique of every race.

I think we're missing a unique Naga probably at least 2 or 3 others.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6393

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 18:17

Post Thursday, 8th December 2011, 18:13

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

I opine that his favourite build was that of a young FrWo.



Serne wrote:Also: we NEED a unique of every race.

Definitely not. Crawl should not pursue systematisation for its own sake.
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1783

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Thursday, 8th December 2011, 18:52

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

I'm kind of wondering why is there no 'Medusa' unique in Snake. Petrification!
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1888

Joined: Saturday, 9th July 2011, 20:57

Post Thursday, 8th December 2011, 19:08

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

TehDruid wrote:I'm kind of wondering why is there no 'Medusa' unique in Snake. Petrification!


I think the official reason is that Medusa is already an iconic Nethack monster, and the devs don't want to steal from Nethack. (I suggested using one of the other two Gorgon sisters, but alas...)

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6393

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 18:17

Post Thursday, 8th December 2011, 19:23

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

A naga king from the Mahābhārata would do nicely.
User avatar

Sewers Scotsman

Posts: 3192

Joined: Friday, 13th May 2011, 08:47

Location: Ultima Thule

Post Thursday, 8th December 2011, 19:36

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

Grimm wrote:A naga king from the Mahābhārata would do nicely.

Good guy Grimm:
Notes request for something standard in fantasy setting
- turns it into an opportunity to extend range of cultural referents in game.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 205

Joined: Sunday, 25th September 2011, 15:41

Location: Somewhere on the surface of Sol.

Post Thursday, 8th December 2011, 19:37

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

The reason I even mentioned a unique naga was specifically because there is an entire BRANCH filled with the guys and they aren't getting any unique love.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6393

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 18:17

Post Thursday, 8th December 2011, 20:02

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

That's because they're nagas with attitudes.

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1888

Joined: Saturday, 9th July 2011, 20:57

Post Thursday, 8th December 2011, 20:26

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

Grimm wrote:That's because they're nagas with attitudes.


Why doesn't this forum have a groan smiley
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1783

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Thursday, 8th December 2011, 20:50

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

Don't get me wrong. I don't know shit about how adding uniques affects the game code-wise... I just love them because of that special feeling they add to the game and that's why I think there should be more of them. Not necessarily "each race must have at least one" more, mind you.

[bitching]

So Medusa is "stealing from Nethack" and not "Nethack stealing from ancient Greek mythology"? I don't get it. We have a bunch of uniques that are far from unique species-wise (all the Orcish ones, Erolcha (ogre), Sonja (kobold), Nessos (centaur), etc), that have been used in many RPGs before. Do we have to get them removed so that the game can be pure original content?

I guess all I'm saying is, you don't have to present extraordinarily alien material to win a gamer's heart, it's the way in which you do it that matters. And the way has been awesome so far, I think. Because to me what makes DC:SS great is a bunch of stuff other than playable races/backgrounds. It's stuff like:

How easy it is to the newbie roguelike player to understand how to play DC:SS, with tutorials and the hints mode (think of Dwarf Fortress as the antipode - I still can't convince myself to sit down and learn how to play that game). I expect more to be done for the game to widen the player base, with more newbie-friendly interfaces (like being able to change settings from within the game itself).

Beautiful and innovative vaults and branches. I guess that's because I'm playing Tiles only. :P P.S: The new snake pit tiles are awesome!

Flavourful unique monsters that fit well within the environment (like in Shoals you can get Kirke and her hog squad, or Polyphemus the Cyclops, two figures from Homer's Odyssey, they both resided islands, although different ones :P ). Same goes for unrandarts.

The monster descriptions, although sometimes being there for pure retarded fun, are most of the times great reads. I know of Grimm's plight with the DC:SS T.I.T (incoming sexual comments because the I looks like a penis with the two dots on the sides or just because it says tit) and I think it's a great move.

I guess for me it's mostly the small stuff that makes games great.

[/bitching]
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1888

Joined: Saturday, 9th July 2011, 20:57

Post Thursday, 8th December 2011, 22:03

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

TehDruid wrote:So Medusa is "stealing from Nethack" and not "Nethack stealing from ancient Greek mythology"??


Considering Nethack's popularity and influence among the roguelike genre, I think the devs feel that making a Medusa unique would be kind of like making a Vlad the Impaler unique -- they exist as widespread pre-existing mythology, sure, but using them would still feel kind of derivative within the genre. There's plenty of other mythology to steal from anyway, which is why I suggested making a Stheno or Euryale unique instead. The devs are willing to use existing fantasy in huge amounts, what they want to avoid is things they feel are cliches of the genre, and they feel that Nethack made Medusa kind of a cliche.

For this message the author nicolae has received thanks:
TehDruid
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1783

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Thursday, 8th December 2011, 23:12

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

nicolae wrote:
TehDruid wrote:So Medusa is "stealing from Nethack" and not "Nethack stealing from ancient Greek mythology"??


Considering Nethack's popularity and influence among the roguelike genre, I think the devs feel that making a Medusa unique would be kind of like making a Vlad the Impaler unique -- they exist as widespread pre-existing mythology, sure, but using them would still feel kind of derivative within the genre. There's plenty of other mythology to steal from anyway, which is why I suggested making a Stheno or Euryale unique instead. The devs are willing to use existing fantasy in huge amounts, what they want to avoid is things they feel are cliches of the genre, and they feel that Nethack made Medusa kind of a cliche.


I see the whole point, but I just think that it's a little pretentious, a little "beating around the bush".

The reason why I may be insensitive to the whole Nethack adoration thing other fellow dungeon crawlers seem to have going on and while I know it's a very old game that has defined the genre for like... 20+(?) years, I have tried Nethack many times over the years and frankly, I don't like it. It feels... I'm not a great user of the English language, but I believe the word is "convoluted".
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 312

Joined: Thursday, 9th June 2011, 19:12

Post Thursday, 8th December 2011, 23:46

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

While we are stealing things from random sources, I think that Tengu should be able to wrap their wings around medium or smaller foes, shake them a bit and then turn them into bones and slime.

A cookie to the first person to say which movie I still that from (the fact that it is from a movie is your hint).

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6393

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 18:17

Post Thursday, 8th December 2011, 23:52

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

Citizen Kane.

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1888

Joined: Saturday, 9th July 2011, 20:57

Post Thursday, 8th December 2011, 23:59

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

TehDruid wrote:I see the whole point, but I just think that it's a little pretentious, a little "beating around the bush".

The reason why I may be insensitive to the whole Nethack adoration thing other fellow dungeon crawlers seem to have going on and while I know it's a very old game that has defined the genre for like... 20+(?) years, I have tried Nethack many times over the years and frankly, I don't like it. It feels... I'm not a great user of the English language, but I believe the word is "convoluted".


Yeah, after playing Crawl for a while it's hard to find the energy to bother with Nethack, what with all the random tedious crap you have to do for optimal play. My god, I played Nethack after months of sticking to Crawl and when the first door I went through took three tries to open I wanted to shoot somebody in the mouth. Still, it'd be basically impossible to ignore the influence on the genre, for good or for bad, and while "Nethack did it" isn't necessarily always a strike against something, among the Crawl devteam it probably won't count much for something. Petrification in Crawl is much different than stoning in Nethack anyway, and a petrifying gaze in Crawl is relatively mild enough to give to a whole class of creatures (catoblepases).

Also, maybe I said it in this thread before, but I would love to see a unique kraken that shoots lightning from its tentacles.

Blades Runner

Posts: 554

Joined: Tuesday, 25th January 2011, 14:24

Post Friday, 9th December 2011, 02:07

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

Yet Another Stupid Noob wrote:While we are stealing things from random sources, I think that Tengu should be able to wrap their wings around medium or smaller foes, shake them a bit and then turn them into bones and slime.

A cookie to the first person to say which movie I still that from (the fact that it is from a movie is your hint).


"Born with the courage of an eagle, the strength of a black tiger, and the power of a god...The Beastmaster!"

Yup. Crawl definitely needs more weird eagle/slime men. And Jun Horde.
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1729

Joined: Wednesday, 19th October 2011, 21:25

Location: New England.

Post Friday, 9th December 2011, 02:30

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

Serne wrote:Also: we NEED a unique of every race.

I think we're missing a unique Naga probably at least 2 or 3 others.

Definitely, it specist not to have unique from all the different races. Perhaps the devs should even go as far as to implementing a affirmative action police into crawl so that if there is a human or other species which already has a unique representative and a naga unique, both of which are equally fun and balanced they have to take the naga. Sorry if this doesn't make much sense, I'm tired.
What made you happy today?
Shatari wrote:I traded a goat for a Nintendo DS XL, and a ton of games.

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1888

Joined: Saturday, 9th July 2011, 20:57

Post Friday, 9th December 2011, 03:06

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

JeffQyzt wrote:Yup. Crawl definitely needs more weird eagle/slime men.


Jelly Tengu as a subspecies of Tengu. I've never seen Beastmaster so I have nothing else beyond that.
User avatar

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1459

Joined: Sunday, 19th December 2010, 05:45

Location: New England

Post Friday, 9th December 2011, 04:43

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

Didn't affirmative action result in Agnes converting from human to spriggan? I mean, sure, maybe she self identified as sprig her whole life, but until that recent sprite revision and subsequent reconstructive surgery her species remained physically human. (Hmm. Does alternating alliteration still count?)

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 131

Joined: Thursday, 11th August 2011, 14:40

Post Friday, 9th December 2011, 10:08

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

For what it's worth, I had completely forgotten that there's a medusa in nethack, and I've played it quite a lot (won a cople of times), though it was a few years ago. So in my opinion it's not an "iconic" nethack monster, when I think of iconic monsters in nethack I think more of cockatrices, unicorns and vortices.
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1729

Joined: Wednesday, 19th October 2011, 21:25

Location: New England.

Post Friday, 9th December 2011, 12:44

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

There needs to be some equivalent of a scroll of vorpalise weapon for mutations so that if you got a really nice set of mutations you could keep them without fear of loosing them in the next round of mutation roulette.
What made you happy today?
Shatari wrote:I traded a goat for a Nintendo DS XL, and a ton of games.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6393

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 18:17

Post Friday, 9th December 2011, 13:39

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

Potion of genetic stability. Not a bad idea. Would increase complexity of potion ID.
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1783

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Friday, 9th December 2011, 15:38

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

^
|

I like it! Currently, getting a character to become immune to further mutation (rank 3 of mutation resistance mutation) is just a matter of luck and very far from attainable as a goal on any character (except maybe halflings that get a head start). Or maybe when you reach max piety with Zin he could bless your body with immunity to being mutated.
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll
User avatar

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 720

Joined: Friday, 7th January 2011, 01:43

Post Friday, 9th December 2011, 22:59

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

Isn't there a amulet of resist mutation to avoid further mutations already?
duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 131

Joined: Thursday, 11th August 2011, 14:40

Post Friday, 9th December 2011, 23:03

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

TehDruid wrote:^
|

I like it! Currently, getting a character to become immune to further mutation (rank 3 of mutation resistance mutation) is just a matter of luck and very far from attainable as a goal on any character (except maybe halflings that get a head start). Or maybe when you reach max piety with Zin he could bless your body with immunity to being mutated.


I thought Zin already did that?

And the amulet only reduces the chance to 10%.
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1729

Joined: Wednesday, 19th October 2011, 21:25

Location: New England.

Post Saturday, 10th December 2011, 16:10

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

Using a blowgun should take a tiny little bit of breath.
What made you happy today?
Shatari wrote:I traded a goat for a Nintendo DS XL, and a ton of games.
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1783

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Saturday, 10th December 2011, 21:16

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

ximxim wrote:
TehDruid wrote:^
|

I like it! Currently, getting a character to become immune to further mutation (rank 3 of mutation resistance mutation) is just a matter of luck and very far from attainable as a goal on any character (except maybe halflings that get a head start). Or maybe when you reach max piety with Zin he could bless your body with immunity to being mutated.


I thought Zin already did that?

And the amulet only reduces the chance to 10%.


Zin does give a (as far as I know) (piety/200)*100 % chance of resisting each mutation targeted at you and I think it is free when it happens. so yes, you become immune as long as your piety doesn't begin to drop quite a bit. But not everybody wants to play Zin. I just thought that Zin could - instead of the one-time mutation removal - grant you the resist mutation 3 mutation when you reach max piety and you could keep it if you switched to TSO-Ely but he'd remove it if you ever abandoned any of them. But I guess that sounds OP. The good gods are already awesome enough for the endgame, and this would be all the more of an incentive to make players pick them over others.

What my point is, I'd like a way to control when you stop getting mutations (aka resist mutation 3) so you can lock any good mutations you happen to get on the way. Of course it should be nigh impossible to start-scum waiting for a bunch of pots and a bunch of "pots of genetic stability" to spawn on the first floor so you can play mutation roulette.
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll
User avatar

Sewers Scotsman

Posts: 3192

Joined: Friday, 13th May 2011, 08:47

Location: Ultima Thule

Post Saturday, 10th December 2011, 22:19

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

Sheep do not bellow. Bleat, perhaps.

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1888

Joined: Saturday, 9th July 2011, 20:57

Post Saturday, 10th December 2011, 22:21

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

TehDruid wrote:I just thought that Zin could - instead of the one-time mutation removal - grant you the resist mutation 3 mutation when you reach max piety and you could keep it if you switched to TSO-Ely but he'd remove it if you ever abandoned any of them.


Thematically, though, Zin's a god of no mutations at all - a god of purity and cleanliness, not of mere genetic stability.

What my point is, I'd like a way to control when you stop getting mutations (aka resist mutation 3) so you can lock any good mutations you happen to get on the way.


I'm not sure a potion that essentially gives you permanent mutation resistance would go over well. Being able to "lock" in random mutations would kind of defeat the "Mendelian roulette" aspect of the mutation game as well: they're useful but you can't guarantee their permanence.
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1729

Joined: Wednesday, 19th October 2011, 21:25

Location: New England.

Post Sunday, 11th December 2011, 00:43

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

nicolae wrote:I'm not sure a potion that essentially gives you permanent mutation resistance would go over well. Being able to "lock" in random mutations would kind of defeat the "Mendelian roulette" aspect of the mutation game as well: they're useful but you can't guarantee their permanence.

The idea isn't to give you resistance to mutations, the idea is to allow you keep certain mutations forever, similar to the way a scroll of vorpalise weapon can permanently affix a brand to a weapon.
What made you happy today?
Shatari wrote:I traded a goat for a Nintendo DS XL, and a ton of games.
User avatar

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 645

Joined: Wednesday, 14th September 2011, 09:36

Location: <---

Post Monday, 12th December 2011, 03:58

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

Make the Crazy Yiuf's vault have 1% chance to spawn CrAzY yIuF instead.
User avatar

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 720

Joined: Friday, 7th January 2011, 01:43

Post Monday, 12th December 2011, 16:33

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

Give giant frogs a trapping tongue ability: works for 2 tiles long and can held you and move to the adjacent tile of the frog (as a mild mesmerization).
duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1783

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Monday, 12th December 2011, 20:45

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

Roderic wrote:Give giant frogs a trapping tongue ability: works for 2 tiles long and can held you and move to the adjacent tile of the frog (as a mild mesmerization).


...Which of course leads to...

DEVOUR WHOLE - Have fun slashing through frog guts. :P

In other news:

Rod or Rod - Roderic's (walking) rod. He's just a blind beggar. No special abilities.
Rod of acquirement - Hint: It recharges!
Rod of acquirement of rod of acquirement {acquire rod of acquirement of rod of acquirement} - Hail infinity.
Rod of door {summon door} - Blam! The iron gate smashes on you! You die.
Rod of rood {noisy} - Insults your mother in new and fascinating ways
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6393

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 18:17

Post Monday, 12th December 2011, 21:25

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

rod of porridge
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1783

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Monday, 12th December 2011, 21:28

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

Grimm wrote:rod of porridge


I think "Hose of porridge" would make more sense, but a stick that creates gooey food, splashing it all around the place sounds too nice of a thing to lose to such semantics.
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1244

Joined: Thursday, 10th March 2011, 19:45

Post Monday, 12th December 2011, 21:34

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

Orb of porridge

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6393

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 18:17

Post Monday, 12th December 2011, 22:05

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

TehDruid wrote:a stick that creates gooey food, splashing it all around the place sounds too nice of a thing

As the actress said to the archbishop.

For this message the author Grimm has received thanks:
TehDruid

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1888

Joined: Saturday, 9th July 2011, 20:57

Post Monday, 12th December 2011, 22:13

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

mace of porridge

For this message the author nicolae has received thanks:
Grimm

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6393

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 18:17

Post Monday, 12th December 2011, 22:19

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

executioner's axe of sultanas

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6393

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 18:17

Post Monday, 12th December 2011, 22:26

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

quarterstaff of cheese
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1783

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Monday, 12th December 2011, 22:28

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

Grimm wrote:executioner's axe of sultanas


Executioner's axe of the tree hugger. Not to be used by lumberjacks. Hint: It strangulates them.
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll
User avatar

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 720

Joined: Friday, 7th January 2011, 01:43

Post Monday, 12th December 2011, 22:29

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

Roderic's (walking) rod


Yeah, the other one is branded and blessed. 8-)
duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1888

Joined: Saturday, 9th July 2011, 20:57

Post Monday, 12th December 2011, 22:55

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

sausage flail

bonus damage vs. spriggans

For this message the author nicolae has received thanks: 3
Grimm, MyOtheHedgeFox, Roderic

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6393

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 18:17

Post Monday, 12th December 2011, 23:00

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

spiked lemon of distortion
User avatar

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 720

Joined: Friday, 7th January 2011, 01:43

Post Monday, 12th December 2011, 23:02

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

Ancient lychee in Tomb

Leeching lychee in Swamp
duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1888

Joined: Saturday, 9th July 2011, 20:57

Post Monday, 12th December 2011, 23:09

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

meat elemental

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6393

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 18:17

Post Monday, 12th December 2011, 23:35

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

toenail ration
User avatar

Snake Sneak

Posts: 105

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 15:59

Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA

Post Tuesday, 13th December 2011, 03:06

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

squirrel of enchant weapon II
The Ed draws near! What dost thou deaux?

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1888

Joined: Saturday, 9th July 2011, 20:57

Post Tuesday, 13th December 2011, 03:18

Re: Generic Brainstorming!

weapon of enchant squirrel II
PreviousNext

Return to Crazy Yiuf's Corner

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests

cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.