Species Mergers Discussion

[Klown]

High Elf & Deep Elf = High Elf: An inbetween mix of the two species.
Halfling & Kobold = Kobold: A Kobold with +3 slings

[galehar]

It's not one proposition but several and the arguments given are very thin. Each of those proposals would need a lot of design work, so if you want this discuss in GDD, focus on one of them.
To CYC.

[Confidence Interval]

Felid & Octopode = Octopussy. 007 ftw!

[Mankeli]

Felid & Octopode = Octopussy. 007 ftw!

Reminds me of this: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1619880/?ref_=sr_1

[XuaXua]

Most of these combos are -very- similar, and several species on this list have even been mentioned for the chopping block by devs, or seen as broken by player threads.

High Elf & Deep Elf = Dire Elf: An inbetween mix of the two species.
Halfling & Kobold = Kobling: A Kobold with +3 slings
Naga & Octopode = Octopaga: Octopode with average HP and/or spit poison.
Ogre & Troll = Trogre: A Troll with better Maces & Flails apt. Less one-dimensional & gives it a hydra killer.
Tengu & Felid = Fegu: A Tengu-esque species(Humanoid firebird) with 1 revive to random place per game(no level down penalties, or any penalties in general). Better fire apts. Can't wear or wield anything because it burns/melts instantly. Items in it's inventory are safe. Still has flying ability & bonuses. Has an always-on ring of flames, but with minimal damage. Takes 1 hp damage each turn in shallow water. Still has talons & beak. -40% HP. Moves away from the tengu's human comparison.
Mummy & Ghoul = Mhoul: A Mummy with better apts all around, no self-restoration, but 'Stat Rot' making it lose 1 HP, & randomly 1 STR or 1INT or 1 DEX permanently every time it levels up.

ftfy

I'd prefer to see races incorporated into Demigods, who are all apparently terrible humans.

[Grimm]

Is this about slash fic?

[Klown]

, _____ ,

[Igxfl]

Sludge Elf & Mountain Dwarf = Dirty Mountain Elf: Like Humans but with +2 to all apts. Immediately gets removed for game design reasons.

[Grimm]

Octopode + Centaur = something with 14 limbs that can swim and run fast.

[Confidence Interval]

Octopode + Centaur = something with four tentacles that has to stick to dry land and moves at half octopode speed (because it only has half the limbs).

ftfy.

"Miss Duncan wrote Mr. Shaw as follows: ‘My dear Mr. Shaw: I beg to remind you that as you have the greatest brain in the world, and I have the most beautiful body, it is our duty to posterity to have a child.’ Whereupon Mr. Shaw replied to Miss Duncan: ‘My dear Miss Duncan: I admit that I have the greatest brain in the world and that you have the most beautiful body, but it might happen that our child would have my body and your brain. Therefore, I respectfully decline’" (though it may not have been not Shaw and Duncan who had this exchange).

[Grimm]

she had the rare Beautiful Body 3 mutation

[Confidence Interval]

And he had drunk a lot of potions of gain intelligence.

[Grimm]

but it was not to be

[Confidence Interval]

Hegel's dialectics fail here: thesis plus antithesis does not always lead to synthesis.

[Grimm]

So I can't have a horsetopode?

[ajon]

I believe that it is illegal to pode horses in this area...

[Confidence Interval]

Death to horse poders!

[Grimm]

All righty then podner.

[Klown]

Any complaints about these ones?

High Elf & Deep Elf = High Elf
Halfling & Kobold = Kobold
Naga & Octopode = Octopode
Ogre & Troll = Troll

[Azrael]

Phoenix sounds fun, but why the hell would you want to combine octopode and naga? They have nothing in common.

[Mankeli]

Phoenix sounds fun, but why the hell would you want to combine octopode and naga? They have nothing in common.

They do: Of all crawl species, they are the number one and two candidates for a hentai movie.

[Klown]

Phoenix sounds fun, but why the hell would you want to combine octopode and naga? They have nothing in common.

Very similar apts. Random constriction water creatures with good stealth ability. afaik the only major difference is 8 rings vs spit poison & starting HP/MP.
I guess that one is slightly more out there, since I see a lot of Naga fans.

Elves/Giants/Smalls are veryyyy similar & pretty generic though.

What the High Elf mix would look like.

  Code:

[u]Level Bonuses[/u]

+1 Intelligence or Dexterity every 3rd level.
-10% HP
+20% MP
+4 Magic Resistance per level


[u]Aptitudes[/u]

Fighting: -1
Short Blades: 1
Long Blades: 1
Axes: -2
Maces & Flails: -3
Polearms: -2
Staves: 0
Unarmed Combat: -2

Throwing: 1
Slings: -2
Bows: 2
Crossbow: 0

Armour: -2
Dodging: 2
Stealth: 2
Shields: -2

Fire Magic: 1
Ice Magic: 1
Air Magic: 1
Earth Magic: -1
Poison Magic: -1

Spellcasting: 2
Conjurations: 1
Hexes: 2
Charms: 3
Summonings: 0
Necromancy: 0
Translocations: 1
Transmutation: 1

Invocations: 1
Evocations: 1

Experience: 0

Deep Elf's mage monopoly gets limited, but it's an even mix of the two remaining elves, making a more well rounded creature.

[sgrunt]

Remove everything but humans - why bother?

Remove every background - they all turn out the same way anyway.

Remove all branches - they all play the same anyway.

Remove D - 27 branches of exactly the same thing.

Clearly Crawl needs to be one room with the Orb and a few monsters between it, you, and the exit.

No, wait.

Remove the Orb - have the game end when you kill all the monsters.

No, wait.

Remove all the monsters - fighting them turns out exactly the same way anyway.

There! Everything remotely similar in the game is now gone. Perfection, yes?

[Klown]

Same dev reasons to remove #mountaindwarf

[rebthor]

Remove everything but humans - why bother?

Remove every background - they all turn out the same way anyway.

Remove all branches - they all play the same anyway.

Remove D - 27 branches of exactly the same thing.

Clearly Crawl needs to be one room with the Orb and a few monsters between it, you, and the exit.

No, wait.

Remove the Orb - have the game end when you kill all the monsters.

No, wait.

Remove all the monsters - fighting them turns out exactly the same way anyway.

There! Everything remotely similar in the game is now gone. Perfection, yes?

I'd play that.

[Siegurt]

I'd play that.

You've been playing it your whole life, and you're playing it *right now*, up till now you've been winning.

[ontoclasm]

afaik the only major difference is 8 rings vs spit poison & starting HP/MP.

First, it's not just "starting" MP/HP; HP and MP modifiers multiply your HP and MP forever, so e.g. given a Felid and a Human with identical equipment, level, skills, etc., the Felid will have 40% less HP. Second, 8 rings and poison spit are pretty important. And third, by far the most important things about a race are a) move speed, b) HP apt, and c) equipment slots, and Nagas and Octopodes differ on all three.

Maybe Elves and Kobolds/Halflings could stand to be better differentiated but Nagas and Octopodes are pretty distinct.

[Lafaros]

The fact that you lumped octopodes and nagas together is admittedly pretty baffling. Their aptitude for stealth is not really very important at all, and nagas aren't really "water-based creatures," they just don't stumble in shallow water because they don't have to move any legs about. Octopodes are squisher not just on a starting HP level, but on a total HP level. Nagas can become crazy tanks by the late-game. Additionally, nagas get awesome extra racial AC, and a special lower body armor that gives much more AC than boots. Octopodes really either have to stack Protection rings or have pretty bad AC. Not to mention the slow speed of the naga makes for a particularly important gameplay aspect.

The fact that they have constriction is not really super important. Shared aptitudes are also not really very important, but aptitudes are not in themselves super important most of the time. 0 is a pretty great aptitude most of the time, in my experience. But the actual gameplay of the races feels very different to me!

[Klown]

How about the Elf mix? Instead of simply removing the High Elf, like I've seen mentioned as a potential future change. Mixing their aptitutdes and such into an in-between species makes a more well-rounded character. Would make other species get more mage play maybe.

  Code:

[u]Level Bonuses[/u]

+1 Intelligence or Dexterity every 3rd level.
-10% HP
+20% MP
+4 Magic Resistance per level


[u]Aptitudes[/u]

Fighting: -1
Short Blades: 1
Long Blades: 1
Axes: -2
Maces & Flails: -3
Polearms: -2
Staves: 0
Unarmed Combat: -2

Throwing: 1
Slings: -2
Bows: 2
Crossbow: 0

Armour: -2
Dodging: 2
Stealth: 2
Shields: -2

Fire Magic: 1
Ice Magic: 1
Air Magic: 1
Earth Magic: -1
Poison Magic: -1

Spellcasting: 2
Conjurations: 1
Hexes: 2
Charms: 3
Summonings: 0
Necromancy: 0
Translocations: 1
Transmutation: 1

Invocations: 1
Evocations: 1

Experience: 0(Deep Elf Speed)

[daggaz]

Can we pleeeeease get serious in this thread?

Krakken needs to get merged with underaged japanese schoolgirl.

[Grimm]

TMO3Hbx.jpg (50.55 KiB) Viewed 14076 times

[Confidence Interval]

I am not happy with this thread being used to satisfy the perverse desires of forum members.

[Grimm]

Quoth Eeyore.

[Confidence Interval]

What of it, shorty?

[Maynot]

All the species should be merged into one Frankenstein creature. Each aptitude and stat point is determined by what species is used for each body part.

Lets say the merged creature has ogre arms, you can wield giant clubs and throw rocks and +2 str. However if you have spriggan arms, you can't wield any of the large weapons and +1 dex. This would be spread around Head, body, legs, arms, feet, extra limbs/tentacles. Each part would hold the corresponding attribute/penalty for the appropriate part of said species.

Example: Vampire head (+1 int, sharp teeth, drink blood), centaur body (+1 dex, metabolism up, +10% hp, armor fits poorly), demonspawn legs (get 1-2 demonspawn mutations with possibility of talons/hoof), Troll arms (+2 str, claws), extra tentacles (-1 dex, for monster bondage, +ring)

*edit* Any mutation or polymorph effect can have the possibility of permanently changing a body part from one species to another. *edit*

This is an excellent idea!

[and into]

How about the Elf mix? Instead of simply removing the High Elf, like I've seen mentioned as a potential future change. Mixing their aptitutdes and such into an in-between species makes a more well-rounded character. Would make other species get more mage play maybe.

It seems that you want some serious feedback, even though this was moved to CYC. In general, changes to species should be considered only when there's a *problem*, either in terms of tedious play strategies, balance, or lack of differentiation compared to other species. The only problem with the species you focus on, in this sense, are possibly in terms of a lack of differentiation between Kobolds and Halflings, on the one hand, and High Elves and Deep Elves, on the other.

Kobolds have the whole near-gourmand intrinsic, while Halflings are sturdier, have mutation resistance, and have fewer (IIRC) limitations on weapons they can wield; there are some differences in terms of aptitudes, but those are pretty minor. High Elves have better HP, more well-rounded overall defensive traits, and slightly worse spell aptitudes in certain areas (and slow growth in character level). In all cases, the aptitude differences are BY FAR the most minor difference (and of these the difference in Fighting aptitude btw. HE and DE is the most significant), while HP growth and intrinsic characteristics are the more major ones. I think both pairs of species could stand to be differentiated from each other a bit more, but I don't think it is a huge problem.

If you want to propose a new species (like the Phoenix) that's cool, but you should do that rather than mess with species that are already fairly well designed and fill a particular niche already (whether you actually like to play those species or think they are powerful, or not). As others have pointed out, most of the mergers you propose actually remove the most interesting traits from the species involved. Crawl would be a worse game if species selection became "27 varieties of human, with a small twist."

[dpeg]

It seems funny now that when we made the aptitude scale coarser (from percentage based, with steps of 5 to the current -5...+5 scale) we were afraid that it might be too coarse but in reality it might be too fine still

[XuaXua]

It seems funny now that when we made the aptitude scale coarser (from percentage based, with steps of 5 to the current -5...+5 scale) we were afraid that it might be too coarse but in reality it might be too fine still

Make it -10...+10, take all the existing numbers and multiply them by 2. Then adjust arbitrarily.

[and into]

It seems funny now that when we made the aptitude scale coarser (from percentage based, with steps of 5 to the current -5...+5 scale) we were afraid that it might be too coarse but in reality it might be too fine still

I might have overstated slightly. Aptitudes do matter, but people tend to overestimate or overvalue their effect. In very extreme cases they clearly matter (+4 to pole-arms means a Merfolk gets good at melee with them significantly faster), and within one particular category of skills, like magic or defense [i.e., stealth/dodging/fighting/armour]), a bunch of smaller differences of the same type can definitely add up. Demonspawn's -1 across the board (or almost across the board), for instance, is by no means crippling, but unless you are playing a very specifically focused style (like berserker), their lagging behind species with better aptitudes is noticeable (though fairly minor usually).

Where aptitudes hardly matter at all, in my experience, is with (e.g.) High Elves' -2 to necromancy and -1 to summoning. On paper, this seems like a way to differentiate them from deep elves, but this is very minor in practice. It means that starting out as a necromancer with a High Elf will put you behind the curve and be a more challenging start than usual, I suppose, but otherwise it is not really meaningful. High Elves can easily branch out into necromancy, even pretty darn early in the game, with ease. Their great aptitudes in nearly everything else more than compensates. But some people still have this idea that somehow that the -2 aptitude means that getting the good necromancy spells online is going to be some huge liability, but it isn't. In practice the difference in fighting aptitude between DE and HE is much more meaningful, and nevertheless that difference is generally not as meaningful as the difference in HP growth. Is that enough of a difference? Maybe. Sometimes I feel like it is, other times it doesn't seem as though it is enough.

Although mostly the fixation on aptitudes is not something the actual design of Crawl encourages, there are a few times when the design itself suggests they matter much more than they do.

Maybe this was since corrected, but when I was playing the 10.3 version recently (because I was stuck with an old computer for a while on which the more recent version didn't work), I remembered chuckling to myself when I noticed that the "Hunter" background was greyed out as "Not Recommended" for Hill Orcs, and if you did choose HOHu, "Javelins" were the only recommended choice. I could only assume that this is because (horror of horrors!) HO have (or at least had) a -1 aptitude in crossbows, bows, and slings, and a 0 for throwing. If HOHu are still listed as "not recommended" in the game, it is tantamount to trolling newbies, because HOHu are in fact an extremely strong background, especially so if you choose something *other* than the javelins that the game recommends. (Though javs are plenty strong as a starting weapon, of course.)

(In passing, I'll add that I really don't understand what makes some people focus narrowly on DEFE as being more powerful than HEFE, and recommend the former over the latter to new players who want to try casters. FE is a fine background to get into casting, of course, but HE is a much better race for trying it, especially for newbies. I suppose DE do get sticky flame online *slightly* faster, but that's really due to their slightly faster character leveling, more so than aptitudes, and in any case you are usually talking the difference between, on average, "end of D2 or beginning of D3" for DE, and "One third to one-half of D3 explored" for HE, with variation in enemies fought and experience gained potentially having a bigger effect on this, for any given run, anyway.)

[Siegurt]

Actually I find that DE's extra Mana is what really makes them slightly better spellcasters than HE, being able to cast more of your spells in the early game is very useful against bands of stuff (Early Gnoll packs are particularly tedious as a low level HE, and not quite so obnoxious for a similarly-leveled DE)

I think Necromancy is a bad thing to differentiate on because I have always felt like Necromancy isn't as much of a "primary offensive tool" It's not nearly as blasty as conjurations and there are too many undead to make it through the early game on the strength of the offensive-ness of the spells by themselves, I've always felt like my necromancers succeed better when they diversify a little early (Either with ranged or melee weapons, depending on what I find and what aptitudes are out there) and use necromancy situationally (And it can be used *very* effectively situationally) Hence, for me at least, playing a successful necromancer, doesn't involve training as much of the "necromancy" skill in the early game as I would say conjurations for a conjurer.

I feel similarly about translocations, a big difference in translocation aptitude isn't likely to by itself make you a significantly better or worse Warper.

[Klown]

Any comments on UP/OP for what the hypothetical Elf Mix would end up as?

  Code:

[u]Level Bonuses[/u]

+1 Intelligence or Dexterity every 3rd level.
-10% HP
+20% MP
+4 Magic Resistance per level


[u]Aptitudes[/u]

Fighting: -1
Short Blades: 1
Long Blades: 1
Axes: -2
Maces & Flails: -3
Polearms: -2
Staves: 0
Unarmed Combat: -2

Throwing: 1
Slings: -2
Bows: 2
Crossbow: 0

Armour: -2
Dodging: 2
Stealth: 2
Shields: -2

Fire Magic: 1
Ice Magic: 1
Air Magic: 1
Earth Magic: -1
Poison Magic: -1

Spellcasting: 2
Conjurations: 1
Hexes: 2
Charms: 3
Summonings: 0
Necromancy: 0
Translocations: 1
Transmutation: 1

Invocations: 1
Evocations: 1

Experience: 0(Deep Elf Speed)

[and into]

Any comments on UP/OP for what the hypothetical Elf Mix would end up as?

It would basically be just as powerful as a High Elf or Deep Elf currently is.

None of these small changes in aptitudes really push this species in any direction apart from what HE and DE currently do. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the half-dozen (exaggeration, but only slightly) varieties of Elf species that used to exist in the game had almost exactly these aptitudes. (Grey Elf maybe?)

If a merge were to happen (resulting in a "Mid-Elf" I suppose? Or perhaps an "Elevation: Sea Level Elf"?) I think it would make sense for it to be at least average in every elemental school, so that the major archetypal magic-affine species can be recommended for any elementalist starting background.

[and into]

Actually I find that DE's extra Mana is what really makes them slightly better spellcasters than HE, being able to cast more of your spells in the early game is very useful against bands of stuff (Early Gnoll packs are particularly tedious as a low level HE, and not quite so obnoxious for a similarly-leveled DE)

I think Necromancy is a bad thing to differentiate on because I have always felt like Necromancy isn't as much of a "primary offensive tool" It's not nearly as blasty as conjurations and there are too many undead to make it through the early game on the strength of the offensive-ness of the spells by themselves, I've always felt like my necromancers succeed better when they diversify a little early (Either with ranged or melee weapons, depending on what I find and what aptitudes are out there) and use necromancy situationally (And it can be used *very* effectively situationally) Hence, for me at least, playing a successful necromancer, doesn't involve training as much of the "necromancy" skill in the early game as I would say conjurations for a conjurer.

I feel similarly about translocations, a big difference in translocation aptitude isn't likely to by itself make you a significantly better or worse Warper.

Missed this post earlier—yes, Siegurt, those are good points. The nature of the spell schools themselves (as compared with e.g., conjurations) does also mean that necromancy and translocations, like charms, are pretty easy to branch into for almost anyone (though for slightly different reasons). But even for something like summoning, even if High Elves had -2 in summoning you could still branch into it easily later, just like you can, without that much trouble, get a character with -2 aptitude in long blades to a point where he is rocking a good demon blade. The aptitude would be somewhat punishing if you started as a fighter with falchion or something, but if you are just picking it up as a melee backup skill mid-game, a -2 aptitude has a breathtakingly small effect on your overall game.

I disagree about the MP levels, I find the small HP boost and (mid-game) better HP growth of the High Elf puts them ahead, especially for people who are relatively new to the game. But of course both are extremely well suited for the role and I don't want to split hairs. Needless to say, DE are definitely better for pushing into ridiculous (but, admittedly, very fun to play every now and then) glass-cannon builds.

[rebthor]

I think that new players have a little more conceptual trouble understanding that on a blasty char like FE or Cj very early on, having no MP is remarkably similar to having no HP. The red bar going down, they may understand that they need to run away for a bit. The blue one, not so much.

[Siegurt]

Needless to say, DE are definitely better for pushing into ridiculous (but, admittedly, very fun to play every now and then) glass-cannon builds.

Well, I also think I also perceive that novice spellcasters tend to make 'glass cannon builds' pretty much exclusively, because until you've played the game a bunch, you think that's how spellcasters are supposed to go (Particularly if you come in with any preconceived notions from any other game where you can play a "blasty mage" of some sort)

So while not very instructive, I think DE make novices have longer, more successful games when they're playing 'blasty-mages' because it fits better with the kind of character they tend to build, even if that's suboptimal.

[Klown]

@ beginners playing spellcasters. Lets just walk into the head of a novice.
I hate playing low apt spellcasters(0 and under). Start off with 12% fail rate for spells you rely on to live. Then you miss and miscast, only have 3 magic points. Tediously attempt running away for minutes on D1, every monster catches you anyways and you get two hit killed. Deep Elf Necromancer for example, it starts out with Pain & Animate Skeleton(if you learn it) right away at 2% fail rate. A pretty nice spell for that level, along with skeleton buddies, and 4 magic. And it's just 'Necromancy' spells. You don't need to be training up 2-3 schools just to get a beginner level spell online. Vampiric Draining/Control Undead/Animate Dead come in by level 4 at a reasonable failure rate, and you're suddenly all set to start branching out your character before even reaching The Lair; with other spellbooks picked up and/or weapons-cards.

Not saying that's the correct direction of thinking, just what a poor player might be seeing.

[and into]

Klown, Siegurt, and rebthor: Yes, good points.

@ beginners playing spellcasters. Lets just walk into the head of a novice.
I hate playing low apt spellcasters(0 and under). Start off with 12% fail rate for spells you rely on to live. Then you miss and miscast, only have 3 magic points. Tediously attempt running away for minutes on D1, every monster catches you anyways and you get two hit killed. Deep Elf Necromancer for example, it starts out with Pain & Animate Skeleton(if you learn it) right away at 2% fail rate. A pretty nice spell for that level, along with skeleton buddies, and 4 magic. And it's just 'Necromancy' spells. You don't need to be training up 2-3 schools just to get a beginner level spell online. Vampiric Draining/Control Undead/Animate Dead come in by level 4 at a reasonable failure rate, and you're suddenly all set to start branching out your character before even reaching The Lair; with other spellbooks picked up and/or weapons-cards.

Right, but I was speaking specifically of DE vs. HE, but I think what you said is true and always good to keep in mind, namely that a lot of newer players tend to have a better experience (even when they die) playing very focused builds that start off with a reliable attack. (Which is why FE is good for people who want to try out blaster mages but don't have a lot of experience.)