Proposal: The raw flesh tastes terrible!

[rosstin]

One minor thing that bugs me about Crawl and other roguelikes is "The raw flesh tastes terrible!" message. There's nothing bad about eating raw flesh in the game, in fact you basically have to do it. Why constantly generate a message that makes you feel like you're doing something wrong?

What if we had a more pleasant message? "You choke down the raw flesh" or something like that.

[Marbit]

I think this is flavour and non controversial minor detail. I would submit the change to mantis, I don't think it needs much discussion.

[Siegurt]

Agreed, perhaps something even more neutral like "You eat the <chunk>"

While eating raw flesh seems awful to most non-crawl-adventurer-humans. Apparently in the crawl world, there's no such thing as cooking, so obviously raw flesh is just what everyone does (Except of course for rations, which are some kind of mysterious prepared food item)

Eating raw flesh in crawl is apparently just normal.

[Klown]

there's no such thing as cooking

until the secret chef background pops up in 0.13

Spoiler: show

[TwilightPhoenix]

Worth noting that the flavor message can help you tell if your Gourmand amulet has kicked in or not and how far along it is. It's not a major deal, but it's nice to know that the chunks I'm eating aren't doing any good at the moment rather than get a "You eat a chunk", which tells me nothing.

[rosstin]

Worth noting that the flavor message can help you tell if your Gourmand amulet has kicked in or not and how far along it is. It's not a major deal, but it's nice to know that the chunks I'm eating aren't doing any good at the moment rather than get a "You eat a chunk", which tells me nothing.

I agree that that's important, but we can shift the tone of the messages to still be informative, just not tell you that everything you eat ever tastes terrible.

Like:
"You choke down the chunk."
"The raw flesh tastes okay."
"The raw flesh tastes good."
"The raw flesh is delicious!"

etc. Similar to now, but the base level is not "terrible".

Brown chunks can taste terrible, that makes some sense. White chunks should taste okay.

[Amnesiac]

Why would anyone eat raw flesh anyway?.. At least humans wouldn't readily eat raw flesh and would try to use something like conjure flame first.

[Bim]

I completely agree, the message makes it sound as though there's some sort of penalty attached to it. However, 'choke down' sounds equally as negative as 'the raw flesh tastes terrible' - possibly more so in fact.

I would change it too: "The raw flesh is just edible." - it certainly makes it sound unappealing, but it doesn't make it sound as though it's harmful in any way.

[evilmike]

It tastes terrible because it's raw flesh and you don't have gorumand/mutations that makes you like eating it. This is also why you can't eat it until you reach "hungry" status. It's also kind of a tradition for food to just taste awful, going back to Rogue.

This message isn't even a minor problem, it's a complete non-issue.

[WildSam]

Brown chunks can taste terrible, that makes some sense. White chunks should taste okay.

Considering nausea removal, it's thing pretty rational thing to do in many cases for like any character. Sounds not terrible at all.

This message isn't even a minor problem, it's a complete non-issue.

Callin' not terrible at all thing a terrible isn't big problem, of course. But not very clear design.
There are some noobs, ya know. Some of them even don't play games a lot and as result they are not metagamey types.
And when they read "meat is terrible", they see "meat is terrible", not "your gourmand didn't kick in" or "tradition".

[nicolae]

Brown chunks can taste terrible, that makes some sense. White chunks should taste okay.

Considering nausea removal, it's thing pretty rational thing to do in many cases for like any character. Sounds not terrible at all.

This message isn't even a minor problem, it's a complete non-issue.

Callin' not terrible at all thing a terrible isn't big problem, of course. But not very clear design.
There are some noobs, ya know. Some of them even don't play games a lot and as result they are not metagamey types.
And when they read "meat is terrible", they see "meat is terrible", not "your gourmand didn't kick in" or "tradition".

Honestly, I feel like if a player can't figure out the syllogism "it says the meat tastes terrible but since it disappeared from my inventory and I'm not Hungry anymore I must have choked it down anyway" then perhaps Crawl is not for them. (Nobody complains that the snozzcumber message says they taste putrid.)

[rosstin]

There's also the issue of rewarding the player for doing an action that is correct. As it is, every time a player eats a white chunk, they see that message, and they feel a little bad. It's a weird sort of negative enforcement. I've been playing roguelikes for over ten years and I still feel "aw..." when I read that message. Sometimes I play a Kobold just so the message becomes "The raw flesh tastes great," and I can get a little boost instead of feeling bummed.

The players should feel good when they eat white chunks. They successfully got non-permafood while their avatar was hungry. It's a small victory; one of the simple pleasures of playing Crawl.

[Wark]

There's also the issue of rewarding the player for doing an action that is correct.

Such reward already exists. You had "Hungry" status, after eating you do not have it anymore. The message it conveys is pretty clear and comprehensible imo.

[jejorda2]

"The chunk of meat fills part of your empty belly." "The chunk of meat makes you less hungry." "The chunk of meat chases the horrible hunger away for a time."

For gourmands,
"The delicious chunk of meat pushes your hunger away."

For herbivores:
"The nasty chunk meat does a little to push the hunger out of your mind"

[rosstin]

Suggestions:
"Being hungry helps you choke down the raw flesh."
"Hunger makes the raw flesh palatable."
"Hunger makes the raw flesh edible."

Honestly, the first time I played Crawl I was convinced that there was a way to prepare monster flesh to make it taste better. I really thought that's what the message was telling me. Like, in Nethack, raw flesh tastes terrible, but you can get a tinning kit to preserve it and make it edible. I was pretty surprised when I discovered that something like that wasn't possible in Crawl.

[XuaXua]

As I have noted before in at least two prior instances of this thread, "raw" implies it can be made "not raw" and "terrible" implies it can be made not terrible.

Use a neutral verbage for all / general. Leave out both adjectives.
Activated Gourmand or Carnivore get a "delicious" message.
Herbivore gets a "terrible" message.
Replace "raw flesh" with "meat chunk".

[red_kangaroo]

Well, eating a chunk of rat or worm flesh, I would be VERY surprised if it doesn't taste terrible.

[XuaXua]

This message isn't even a minor problem, it's a complete non-issue.

Wrong because it has come up more than twice.
It is misleading to new players, and if usability trials were still being done, I'm sure it'd get flagged.
If the intent is to imply a lack of nutrition compared to other foods, note it in the item description, not in every single message.

[Amnesiac]

It would be cool to get something like "The raw flesh tastes terrible! You vomit!". And you loose your satiation level a bit. JK. Would be nice if they would cook it if they are not carnivore, just for flavour and making sense.

[XuaXua]

If you want to stop having to tell people that cooking is on the "won't do" list, remove or replace the word "raw".

[Amnesiac]

I mean... you could get a message "You cook the meat" (or something) without implementing anything complicated.

[XuaXua]

I mean... you could get a message "You cook the meat" (or something) without implementing anything complicated.

From what I understand, thd point of the meat chunk is to provide
1) some fast semi-nutritional award for some monsters
2) a spell component (simulacrum/necromancy mp spell)
3) visual entertainment (disintegration/inner flame)


Cooking, even providing the message of doing so, implies time is taken, time which is not subtracted from game time. No cooking. Revise the message so the need for cooking is not implied.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Personally, I never put much thought into the "raw flesh tastes terrible" line. Rather I wound up avoiding chunks when I could before I figured out brown made me sick (this was pre-nausea) and green poisoned me. Although back before I knew Gourmand was a thing and was wearing an unIDed amulet of it, I thought Demonspawn just liked raw meat rather than I was wearing Gourmand. Until I IDed it and was like "...oh, okay."

[Amnesiac]

I don't care a bit about this message, too. But since it bothers somebody, I guess it might be a good idea to change something, so everybody is happy with the game. But I think if we let people vote. It'll turn out that 90% desn't care, 8% would say "leave it as it is, because it's a traditional thing" and 2% would say "blegh, I can't stand the thought of eating raw flesh"

[Galefury]

I like how it drives home the point that the dungeon of Zot is a really shitty place.

[njvack]

OK friends, this thread has even less content than the humans thread, and yet it's refused to die and is in danger of spawning a poll. We're headed to CYC-land.

[XuaXua]

Other than a couple of the offtopic posts, I don't see where this isn't anything but a request to rephrase the meat chunk eating messages. IMHO, it doesn't belong in CYC.

[rosstin]

This was a serious proposal... *shrug*

[XuaXua]

Commence official denouncement.

[Grimm]

This was a serious proposal... *shrug*

It has been discussed before, and, as in this thread, rejected by devs. So there's not much life in the notion.

(Nobody complains that the snozzcumber message says they taste putrid.)

That's because snozzcumbers really do taste putrid.

[prozacelf]

Where do you buy *your* snozzcumbers, Grimm?

Although to be fair I guess something redolent of rotten fish qualifies as putrid.

[SchwaWarrior]

Wouldn't that mean Octopodes find the taste of snozzcumber to be tasty? I mean they ARE primarily fish-eaters...

[Grimm]

Where do you buy *your* snozzcumbers, Grimm?

Nairobi. Doesn't everybody?

[daggaz]

if (chunk_num = 1)
eat.chunk.msg = "This raw flesh tastes terrible! You look back longingly the way you came, foul blood sticking to your lips, wondering if it was a wise decision to enter this accursed place. The darkness is almost suffocating, the sunlight outside but a shadow of a memory. Already you feel as if you cannot remember the touch of the wind on your cheek, the taste of bread, or even... your own name... Dejected, you turn back to the darkness, hoping the ring or the orb or whatever is worth the terrible price you have paid."

else
eat.chunk.msg = "This raw flesh tastes terrible!"

endif

Of course, if you are a kobold, it should just say something along the lines of "Goblin sushi! Delicious!"

[tcjsavannah]

This thread tastes terrible. You feel sick.

Thanks for bringing back Nausea.

[XuaXua]

Commence official denouncement.

Closed already!

Moved to Dev Wiki.

[Team Impy]

What if there's chunks specific to each species that they find delicious, and possibly get slightly more nutrition out of? Big fish, giant goldfish and rats for felids, hogs and sheep for humans, hound for orcs, kobold for nagas, human and elf for ogres, giant eyeballs and worms for tengu, etc.

[Tiktacy]

This was a serious proposal... *shrug*

It has been discussed before, and, as in this thread, rejected by devs. So there's not much life in the notion.

(Nobody complains that the snozzcumber message says they taste putrid.)

That's because snozzcumbers really do taste putrid.

Commence official denouncement.

Closed already!

Moved to Dev Wiki.

What if there's chunks specific to each species that they find delicious, and possibly get slightly more nutrition out of? Big fish, giant goldfish and rats for felids, hogs and sheep for humans, hound for orcs, kobold for nagas, human and elf for ogres, giant eyeballs and worms for tengu, etc.

My sides hurt from laughing so hard.