The Tavern

So the 15-rune game is, at least to me, not fun. It takes too long, and involves too many tests of mental endurance. But the postgame areas are individually cool (even Tomb and the Hells), and I like to visit them. Don't get me started on Ziggurats.

How do people deal with it? Lately I've realised that there is no need to do all 15, and just picking one or two extra runes arbitrarily before going for the win. I have seen references to developers finding the postgame problematic and am interested to see if they do things about it, but in the meantime, what do players think?

I usually deal with it by going through hell first, because at least it's minorly entertaining compared to the Grindemonium populated by smoke demons and neqoxecs.

But mostly it's the exact same as you do.

I read "postgame tedium" and I thought it would be about winning a game of Crawl and going back to real life with all its grind, interface and balance issues.

joellercoaster wrote:So the 15-rune game is, at least to me, not fun. It takes too long, and involves too many tests of mental endurance. But the postgame areas are individually cool (even Tomb and the Hells), and I like to visit them. Don't get me started on Ziggurats.

How do people deal with it? Lately I've realised that there is no need to do all 15, and just picking one or two extra runes arbitrarily before going for the win. I have seen references to developers finding the postgame problematic and am interested to see if they do things about it, but in the meantime, what do players think?

I recently had a HEAE that was ready for extended. Firestorm, tornado, controlled blink, all castable. Evoc up with CBOE. But when I took my first step into Pandemonium and slogged through two random levels looking for the demonic rune, I just realized that I was tired of it. The only real reward is a higher score, and I already have what I consider a decent high score. It just wasn't worth it to me. So, to answer your question, I think I'm dealing with it by forgetting about it. From now on, five runes will be the most I get.

Doesn't "postgame" mean "after the game"?

I love the extended game but I know how you feel. Pan really isn't that bad though. Once you clear a few floors and find the Demonic rune just keep diving until you're on a Pan Lord floor. It doesn't take that long in my experience. I've only got five 15 runevrune victories though. The most annoying part of Pan is trying to get an exit.

Hell is aggrevating but doesn't take long. I save all my magic mapping scrolls for Hell so I can dive down as fast as possible.

I hate the Abyss. Thats the most frustrating IMO.

Has something changed since 0.11 in hells? Because I remember them just being square levels with square rooms and nothing more. Only good thing is that they provide some challenge unlike most of the game.

I really hope reliable means to leave Pan and Abyss are implemented some day. I dread entering them because if I do, I may be stuck there for 30 minutes or an hour just waiting for rune/gate to appear, depending on luck. I like playing Crawl in hour long chunks and there's no other area of the game where I feel like I can waste the whole time period making no progress toward a goal.

I don't think I'll ever go for all 15-runes. Sometimes it's fun to go for a unusual rune, such as one of the hell runes. The hells are actually kind of fun. But yeah... 15-runes? No way.

I think that's okay, though. It's sort of weird balance-wise but it doesn't ruin the game.

Do you get some kind of special ending for getting all the runes?

joellercoaster wrote:So the 15-rune game is, at least to me, not fun. It takes too long, and involves too many tests of mental endurance. But the postgame areas are individually cool (even Tomb and the Hells), and I like to visit them. Don't get me started on Ziggurats.

How do people deal with it? Lately I've realised that there is no need to do all 15, and just picking one or two extra runes arbitrarily before going for the win. I have seen references to developers finding the postgame problematic and am interested to see if they do things about it, but in the meantime, what do players think?

Well apparently most of the really good players (most notably crate and mikee) eventually decide that even a 3-rune game is too long and start making their own win conditions. So I'm not sure there really is a solution.

I thought that's what dungeon sprint was for

reaver wrote:
joellercoaster wrote:So the 15-rune game is, at least to me, not fun. It takes too long, and involves too many tests of mental endurance. But the postgame areas are individually cool (even Tomb and the Hells), and I like to visit them. Don't get me started on Ziggurats.

How do people deal with it? Lately I've realised that there is no need to do all 15, and just picking one or two extra runes arbitrarily before going for the win. I have seen references to developers finding the postgame problematic and am interested to see if they do things about it, but in the meantime, what do players think?
Well apparently most of the really good players (most notably crate and mikee) eventually decide that even a 3-rune game is too long and start making their own win conditions. So I'm not sure there really is a solution.

This is really interesting, yeah. If I ever make a Roguelike, one of my goals will be for it to be completable in a pretty short time period. Very few of our kickass roguelikes have reasonable completion times... Nethack always takes me like 30 hours to beat, Crawl my last win took 20 hours (with only 3 runes). I know you can win faster, but it's not easy.
EDIT: Actually, my last Nethack Ascension took LESS time (17:41) than my last Crawl one (21:08). For shame, Crawl!

I know Spelunky is a weird case because it was a platformer, but I think it was exemplary in terms of timing. A session can last as long as 30 minutes (or even an hour) if you play slowly, but you can also beat the game in 10 minutes if you move quickly.

In my ideal world, I think DCSS would be less than half as long as it currently is.

Dungeon Sprint SHOULD fit the niche of being a short version of Crawl. It's certainly action-packed and intense, full of tough decisions. I don't know why it doesn't scratch the same itch.

Someday I'm going to make a coffeebreak roguelike, and I hope it will be even a tenth as good as Crawl.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-Minute_Hero

moocowmoocow wrote:I really hope reliable means to leave Pan and Abyss are implemented some day. I dread entering them because if I do, I may be stuck there for 30 minutes or an hour just waiting for rune/gate to appear, depending on luck. I like playing Crawl in hour long chunks and there's no other area of the game where I feel like I can waste the whole time period making no progress toward a goal.

Does Pan no longer existing at all count?

That's how things are in trunk.

savageorange wrote:
moocowmoocow wrote:I really hope reliable means to leave Pan and Abyss are implemented some day. I dread entering them because if I do, I may be stuck there for 30 minutes or an hour just waiting for rune/gate to appear, depending on luck. I like playing Crawl in hour long chunks and there's no other area of the game where I feel like I can waste the whole time period making no progress toward a goal.

Does Pan no longer existing at all count? That's how things are in trunk.

rosstin wrote:In my ideal world, I think DCSS would be less than half as long as it currently is.

Dungeon Sprint SHOULD fit the niche of being a short version of Crawl. It's certainly action-packed and intense, full of tough decisions. I don't know why it doesn't scratch the same itch.

One of Crawl Light 's gameplay changes is the game is around 1/3 shorter than standard Crawl. I think Sprint doesn't work well to fill this need because A) It's mostly fixed B) It's a bit too fast - I like to have some lulls while playing Crawl.

nicolae wrote:
savageorange wrote:Does Pan no longer existing at all count? That's how things are in trunk.

I don't know if everybody here gets the joke is that Pan the unique was removed from trunk.

Siegurt wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-Minute_Hero

This looks neat... you can play it on XBLA? Maybe I'll give it a shot.

rosstin wrote:Nethack always takes me like 30 hours to beat

I think my Nethack games were a little longer than Crawl, but Nethack also has a lot more rewards for grindy play. But it was there and it was good at the time... I think I had 26 wins before I found Crawl and literally never played NH again. It absolutely suffers from the problems I find with the Crawl postgame, except you actually have to visit all those damn places.

(I know there are NH variants that try to address this.)

Sprint is kind of reductio ad absurdam, but I think there is definitely scope for something like crate_crawl!

The Tavern

Postgame tedium

Postgame tedium

Re: Postgame tedium

Re: Postgame tedium

Re: Postgame tedium

Re: Postgame tedium

Re: Postgame tedium

Re: Postgame tedium

Re: Postgame tedium

Re: Postgame tedium

Re: Postgame tedium

Re: Postgame tedium

Re: Postgame tedium

Re: Postgame tedium

Re: Postgame tedium

Re: Postgame tedium

Re: Postgame tedium

Re: Postgame tedium

Re: Postgame tedium