How do you feel about death?

[whelen]

Hey all, outside the Crawl universe I'm a lowly journalism student. I'm doing a project on death in roguelikes (Crawl in particular) and I want your input on player death and permadeath in general. This isn't a thread to argue game design, but instead one to explain how you personally feel about character death.

Here's some questions for discussion and consideration. Answer as many or as few as you want, and feel free to add other ideas.

- Do you get emotionally attached to particularly promising characters?

- Roughly how many games of Crawl have you played? About how many of those were wins?

- How do you feel when a character dies? Does it matter whether they're far along in the game or not?

- Do you consider your character an "avatar" for yourself, or are you playing a role? Do you have any formulas for naming your characters?

- What's the feeling you get after you win a game of Crawl? Is it the same as the feeling you had when you won your first game?

- In contrast, does dying frustrate you, or do you think it's a necessary to the pleasure of the game? Have you ever done anything drastic after a particularly brutal or noteworthy death?

- Do you think permadeath could become a popular concept in mainstream game design? Why or why not?

- What originally drew you to roguelikes? What keeps you playing them?

- To you, what's one example of good game design in Crawl that makes permadeath more entertaining/interesting?

[Ashery]

1) In a sense, especially when I'm still learning the game. Early on, I tend to abandon characters after certain milestones or when they're faced with certain death and I can't bring myself to kill the character. I've got an XL21 MDFi that picked up my first rune that was abandoned before assaulting Vaults:8, an XL15'ish FE that's at 10% hp in Shoals that's about to be killed by some snake variant, and a handful of others.

2) Overall I've played around 100 characters, but the early game is when I tend to die most frequently. One win and two other potential wins (The aforementioned MDFi and a promising XL23 HaWr).

3) Depends on how they died. Sure, it's frustrating as hell when I've made a mistake that lead to the loss of the character, but without that frustration the sense of accomplishment in winning wouldn't be the same. Deaths that are caused by the RNG are a bit more, for lack of a better word, acceptable. It's definitely worse later on, but I've yet to lose a high level character (Betting that in 30min I'll have a YASD post up for my HaWr).

4) I tend to look at Crawl as more of a strategy game than role-playing, so that first part doesn't really apply. Naming is done in a manner similar to that of what I used back when I played DAoC in that I use a few base names and either shorten them or change a few letters (Ashery to Asherie, for instance).

5) The only time I'll have a feeling similar to that of my first win is if I manage to accomplish something particularly difficult that run. I'm sure others will be able to describe the feeling better than me.

6) Death is a necessary tension element, without which the game wouldn't be nearly as enjoyable. The only noteworthy event that tends to happen after a character dies is that I often figure out how I could have escaped 15-30min after the death.

7) Doubt it. Permadeath is the antithesis of the direction mainstream game design has been taking.

8) Not sure exactly. The closest thing to a roguelike that I got into before Crawl was DF. I'd say the main appeal is the challenge presented in that you can't simply win because you invested 'x' amount of hours into the game.

9) First of all, permadeath works because the game doesn't require the player to look up obscure spoilers in order to advance/avoid death. Death will largely be due to player error. That's not to say that the RNG won't decide to screw you over at some point, though. For entertaining deaths, well, there's Xom for that.

[seth]

I like permadeath because it leads to consequences for my actions. I can't load an old save file if I screw up--I have to deal with whatever choice I made or whatever unlucky fate happens to me and try to succeed anyway.

[marikvulpina]

1)I can't say I've gotten emotionally attached to any character in any game i've ever played, actually. i understand that it happens, but don't understand how. I'm kind of weird, though.

2)uhhhh... a lot of games. like probably close to 1400 plays. ....no wins yet, though.

3)i do feel annoyed that my game is over, but try to focus it as a learning experience. and yeah, on the rare occasions i breach lair, i have a sudden, but short-lasting "....aww man, that was a good one!" before i revert to "ok should i do another SpEn or try something novel for the hell of it?"

4)hmm. no, and no. if I roll a MDFi i get a momentary chuckle from thinking about dwarf fortress, but I'm not thinking about the little @ or player doll i control as a character. it's just a set piece for me move around and decide what to do next with. also i never actually name my characters ever. it's always just "Marik".

5)still a zot virgin. I'll get back to you.

6)I get annoyed at having to start all the way over, yeah, and have enjoyed a couple of roguelikes without permadeath(castle of the winds, non-hardcore diablo[which i consider to be something of a realtime rather than turnbased roguelike]) and while I enjoy them, there's just... something special about having a fresh start every time you lose. it gives it a more arcade-y feel. I've never done anything at a death other than restart or stop playing for a while. it doesn't bother me.

7)only in a niche way. like hardcore-mode diablo. it seems to be the opposite of, but same theme as, masocore games.

8)i would come across people discussing them on forums and newsgroups and such, and i got addicted to YASD stories, basically. some of those get sooo funny. i finally decided i had to experience it for myself and downloaded vanilla nethack. that was fun for a while, but i kept getting frustrated with it, so i looked for others. i eventually found my home in the dungeons of zot and have been basically a dedicated crawler for about three years. i keep playing because a bad game only takes a few minutes, and a good game is massively entertaining.

9)i think without permadeath, characters in crawl would just end up being too overpowered to be fun. all of the very interesting, very powerful stuff is fun because you only get to use it a little bit, and then it's like revenge on how brutal it's been on you up until then. not having any consequence other than having to reload a save file makes being an avatar of destruction not very interesting, IMO.

[mageykun]

1) Yeah, there's definitely an emotional attachment. Your in game avatar isn't a character in the same sense one is in literature, fiction, etc., but it does represent something you've built up yourself and shepherded from danger. If they last long enough they can grow from cannon fodder to something resembling both a construction you're proud of, and a pet you're responsible for. This is exacerbated if in game your character has literal pets you've had to shepherd as well (see- Nethack, or crawl's hill orc priests).

2) A little hard to count, as I've changed computers and crawl versions a few times since I started now, and I don't play online. Definitely hundreds, not sure if I've broken into a thousand yet. Took me a year to beat Nethack the first time (as a tourist!). A little over a year with crawl, and I haven't- though I have come close several times, and gotten 5 runes. Most recently, I died while picking up the orb (that lose triggered a two week break from the game). I'll win eventually though. I'm not really trying very hard though- if I decided I really wanted a win, I'd be playing a lot more than I am now. I'm kinda taking it slow.

3) Depends on how far I've gotten. Characters that die in the early game are worthless. I sigh and move on. Unless I've lost a string of them, then I progress towards anger at being unable to get a character to stick. Once I've survived long enough that I have what I consider an "established" character, loss hurts a lot more. If the loss is due to an obvious mistake, I'll be frustrated or angry with myself. Otherwise... what I usually feel is the sudden, jarring loss of purpose. A minute ago, I was in the zone- I had a goal, and I was steadily working towards it. And then, suddenly, empty. No purpose. It'd sorta compare it to a significantly lessened version of what you feel when you're fired.

4) I explicitly consider the character an avatar. If a character survives long enough, I will do some role playing- it's fun. Though not as myself- I imagine one of my (non crawl)characters explicitly wearing the role. Although this generally happens after the game or in between sessions- rougelikes being deadly as they are doesn't allow for a lot of daydreaming. Pay attention or die.

I don't put a lot of effort into names- the mortality rate is too high. Currently, I tend to listen to the radio during play, and pull random words to use as the character name. At one point I limited myself to naming based on people mentioned, or the reporter speaking, but after I killed off half the staff of NPR I started feeling guilty.

6) Yes dying is necessary, and yes it is frustrating. I experimented with save scumming in Nethack at one point, and I can tell you the game is much less interesting without the risk of death. Not there aren't whole genres of games that function great without permadeath, but it's part of the formula here. It's needed.

Cant think of any destructive rages after bad deaths. A few have pushed me to play something else for a while. Sometimes if you lose bad enough, you need a break.

7) Well... it used to be, didn't it? All arcade games- anything with a high score- had permadeath (ignoring the whole cheat of buying another life or continue with a quarter). More recently, real time and turn based strategy games are sorta perma-death based. Several factions fight to the death- and you won't always win (especially in the larger 4X kind of games). You could save every turn and use a lot of "time travel" back to force a win (against non-human opponents), but I don't think many people have the patience for that.

The main conflict with permadeath, as I see it, is plot. If there's a story to be told, the player wants to hear it in sequence- not die and hear the same few bits over and over (see- the reason why difficult boss fights preceded with long cut scenes are horrible). Anything with a strong, predetermined plot is going to be a poor fit for permadeath (see RPGS). Predetermined (non-randomly generated) gameplay content also has some conflict with permadeath, though as some of the platformers I played as a kid proved, not an insurmountable one.


Good luck with the project! Give us a link when you're done- these kind of theoretic considerations can be fun to read.

[Lantier]

- Do you get emotionally attached to particularly promising characters?

Sort of. I don't fall in love with my characters or anything like that. But I do consider a promising character (e.g., a Spriggan that gets lucky and finds an Energy Staff early) valuable and I don't want him/her/it to die.

- Roughly how many games of Crawl have you played? About how many of those were wins?

Maybe 500 games since I found Crawl. Only 1 win so far.

- How do you feel when a character dies? Does it matter whether they're far along in the game or not?

Annoyed. Angry if the death is due to a stupid mistake. It matters how close they are to completing the game. A good character dying mid-game would be annoying. A good character dying on Zot 2 would make me use swear words.

- Do you consider your character an "avatar" for yourself, or are you playing a role? Do you have any formulas for naming your characters?

Nope, it's just a character. They are valuable because of their potential and entertainment level, but they are not "me." I name them based on whatever I feel like naming them at the time. My current troll is Glark. Made that up just because I thought it fit. Took like 1 second of thought, max. For really promising characters, I will sometimes spend time on Google trying to find a fitting image though.

- What's the feeling you get after you win a game of Crawl? Is it the same as the feeling you had when you won your first game?

Major sense of accomplishment. I can't answer the second question since I haven't won a second time yet. But if it helps, I feel most of the same sense of pleasure getting a rune now as when I did it the first time. Maybe like 80%. (Probably have obtained one or two dozen runes total.)

- In contrast, does dying frustrate you, or do you think it's a necessary to the pleasure of the game? Have you ever done anything drastic after a particularly brutal or noteworthy death?

Dying is frustrating but it is also necessary to the enjoyment of Crawl. If the rules permit reloading, then you can win the game all the time. Since Crawl is relatively simple, being able to beat it all the time would make the game boring, fast. By comparison, I can replay BG2 over and over (even though it permits reloading) because of the large number of quests, different sub-stories/sub-quests, and fan mods.

Most drastic thing I have done after losing a very good character was to swear. Alot.

- Do you think permadeath could become a popular concept in mainstream game design? Why or why not?

Nope. The general public wants things spoonfed to them. They do not want to work for it. To make a game successful commercially, you need to simplify it, make it pretty, add lots of music, and lower the difficulty so anyone can win the first time they pick up the game. Consider Final Fantasy.

- What originally drew you to roguelikes? What keeps you playing them?

Played the ascii version years ago. When I first started playing computer games. That left a mark. I keep playing today because it is fun. What makes it fun for me are the challenge and the diversity (RNGs, I love ya). The CSS tiles were a huge factor too. I just don't like the Nethack tile options.

- To you, what's one example of good game design in Crawl that makes permadeath more entertaining/interesting?

The turn based play works really well with permadeath. Crawl is not a test of my physical reflexes. It is a test of my mental reflexes. Can I think of a solution to problem X? In the last year, I've developed a habit of stopping play an after 1 hour or 2 of real time, doing a character file dump, and then studying the situation to see what else I should do. Crawl is the only game that makes me mull over a single key stroke for hours, if not days.

Good luck on your project, whelen.

[mageykun]

Dang you minmay, I answered the questions from your post, so I skipped some. And then I got locked out of editing halfway through revisions. :p
Double post time.

5) I've never won Crawl, so I'll talk about Nethack. Every time I've won, it's been a pretty awesome high. I'll be cheery for it a while after, and happily brag to people who have absolutely no interest in listening. Rougelikes are practically engineered to kill you and ensure failure, and I find you get a pretty great feeling of pride and accomplishment when you finally overcome that. Yes, the first time was the sweetest, partially because after that I always knew I could, and partially because the first time was in my floral skirt wearing tourist. :p Suck it, combat classes.

In Crawl I image it might be a little different though- after you first win, you can try and outdo yourself by clearing more branches and getting more runes. Your first 3-rune win almost seems like a formality- get out with a win to prove you can, don't risk the more interesting stuff (which is what has gotten some of my more promising characters killed. If I went strait for the win and avoided certain areas, I'm sure I could have pulled a 3-runer by now. I just never seem willing to settle. :p)

8) I heard about Nethack, and out of curiosity, tried it. Almost instantly hated it. If the game didn't kill me, I'd get trapped somewhere unable to progress (the game really sucks if you don't know how to (s)earch for hidden doors, or (k)ick down the locked ones). It sat unused on my computer for a year before I came back to it, gave it a decent chance, learned to play, and then spent another year working for a win. I found crawl later, while looking for something new to play in Nethack's vein, but that still used tiles. Still working on that win.

I keep playing rougelikes because they're interesting and challenging, and fun. What more could you want in a game?

[tcjsavannah]

Do you get emotionally attached to particularly promising characters?
Yes, and I think it's a direct correlation as to how I've advanced. I remember cursing myself for days after a wizard character drowned (DROWNED!) simply because it was an avoidable death and it was the furthest I'd advanced with any character up to that point.

Roughly how many games of Crawl have you played? About how many of those were wins?
I know it's upwards of 250 by now, with only four wins.

How do you feel when a character dies? Does it matter whether they're far along in the game or not?
Sick when it's a character that has achieved a certain early goal. Say, a spellcaster that gets that real good offensive spell castable. Or a melee character that gets that first great weapon, or that great early mutation set for a Demonspawn. Pretty much anything that dies pre-Temple or pre-Lair is chalked up to "ah, just another early unvaoidable death" and doesn't have as much an impact.

Do you consider your character an "avatar" for yourself, or are you playing a role? Do you have any formulas for naming your characters?
Not at all. Naming convention is either after a fictional character that resembles my character or closely related names (Belkar as a HaBe from Order of the Stick, I played a few Dwarf Hunters and named them Ed Grimli, my current HECr is named Hugo) and I'm fond of sequelizing them as well (I think the most for one char type was Sludgy VII in my string of failed SETms)

What's the feeling you get after you win a game of Crawl? Is it the same as the feeling you had when you won your first game?
Massive relief that I didn't screw it up, followed by a brief elation, then I immediately start thinking about the next combo to win with. The first win was one of those "I've -got- to tell someone about this..." which is how I stumbled upon the Crawl community, and then this forum when it started. Nobody else I know of would understand the excitement at winning!

In contrast, does dying frustrate you, or do you think it's a necessary to the pleasure of the game? Have you ever done anything drastic after a particularly brutal or noteworthy death?

Nothing drastic, no. It frustrates me only if it was avoidable (and immediately avoidable.. if I have to come up with some convoluted scheme that might have saved me, that's definitely not as bad. Of course I'll still think about it!) which is a big draw, I think, of the roguelike genre. You have to *work* a lot to win. The risk/reward factor is huge.

Do you think permadeath could become a popular concept in mainstream game design? Why or why not?

No, gaming in general has gotten away from permadeath - it used to be the norm, and now it's the exception. That's a direct result of the cash involved in the industry. Nobody's going to shell out $$ for a game that is harsh with a steep learning curve in today's society of instant gratification. I think roguelikes, and gaming with permadeath as a big factor, is destined to be a small genre in the overall gaming culture.

What originally drew you to roguelikes? What keeps you playing them?

The original Rogue in college was a blast and I love games that provide infinite replayability. DCSS has kept the spirit of the roguelike alive without corrupting it's basic facets and, at its most basic, it's just a lot of *fun*.

To you, what's one example of good game design in Crawl that makes permadeath more entertaining/interesting?
The incredible balancing that takes place between races and classes. Yes, there are some combinations that are more popular (and more successful) than others, but even the best combos can fall to the whim of Crawl and the RNG. The fact that every combo - every combo! - has escaped with the Orb is outstanding and a credit to the developers and the playerbase in general.

[Tiber]

1) I don't get saddened by its death or anything, but I do feel the pain of realizing what I could have done.

2) If I had to guess, maybe 200 at most. No wins yet.

3) I'd say it depends more on the confidence I have in the character than anything. I don't get so much attached based on the progress of that character; it's more a matter of if it has found a good set of gear or has gotten good at certain skills or spells.

4)It's a character. An empty shell upon which I project my actions. As for naming conventions, I throw some syllables together until I get something that sounds like a good fantasy name. I repeat the name if I'm making the same type of character, but each combo otherwise has its own name.

5)N/A

6) I'm not necessarily gung-ho about perma-death, but I do enjoy playing games that are challenging. At worst though, if I lose a good character I take a break for an hour or so before starting a new character.

7) It doesn't hurt to have it as an option, but there's no need to shoehorn it in where it doesn't fit. As a long-time gamer, I resent the idea that gamers are being spoonfed. Different people have different ideas of fun, and if you're not having fun playing a game, what's the point? That's why they have difficulty levels.

8) I guess I just like building a character up, and having choices.

9) I suppose I like the idea that Crawl keeps you from doing dangerous things by accident, like warning about moving while near water and confused. I can't think of a better example off the top of my head, sorry.

[TwilightPhoenix]

- Do you get emotionally attached to particularly promising characters?

Not really. In most games where I can customize my own character, I can grow very attached to them. Crawl, with perma-death, is the major exception to the rule. Thinking up of names, backstory, personality, and other concepts for a character and only for them to die on floor three is a bit of a waste of time. Of course, I have enough investment to not want them to die, but other than that, I don't care what happens to them.


- Roughly how many games of Crawl have you played? About how many of those were wins?

Going on some numbers by using a search function on my Morgue folder, I'd estimate 450 games. 4 wins. So, give me about 50 more deaths and I should have win #5.


- How do you feel when a character dies? Does it matter whether they're far along in the game or not?

To the second, no. Disappointment is the usual emotion, but in some cases, such as where I managed to get killed by steam, I'll laugh. On the other hand, unfair deaths are frustrating. I HATE getting killed because that Goblin on D2 just happened to spawn with a Wand of Fireballs. Strings of early deaths that are near unavoidable and aren't fair can make me want to punch a kitten. I've yet to get angry at mid- and late-game deaths. Heck, my worst death was on Zot:5, and that just made me start over right away and try again since I realized what I did wrong and knew what I needed to do to win. Cue next character to be my first winner.


- Do you consider your character an "avatar" for yourself, or are you playing a role? Do you have any formulas for naming your characters?

No, the avatar is not me. I'd rather not die that much. I'm not really playing the role either, as I just can't get into character when they could die five seconds later. But, I do have naming formulas? Depending on my mood, I'll either string together random, pronounceable syllables, use whatever random words or names that come to mind (like naming my latest orc Skullmuncha), use Seventh Sanctum's Extreme Fantasy Name Generator, or, if it's a Felid, name it something lolcatish.


- What's the feeling you get after you win a game of Crawl? Is it the same as the feeling you had when you won your first game?

Like I've accomplished something awesome. The first win was a "HOLY #$%@! I WON" moment and I probably won't get that excited again. But, if I ever pull off a 15-runer, we'll see.


- In contrast, does dying frustrate you, or do you think it's a necessary to the pleasure of the game? Have you ever done anything drastic after a particularly brutal or noteworthy death?

Like I've said, only unfair early deaths frustrate me. By the mid-game, there's always something I could do to escape the situation or have done to not get in said situation to begin with, and those deaths don't bother me. Getting killed is a part of Crawl and while I do wish the unavoidable ones would go away, I'd hate for the game to not be brutal about slaughtering your hordes of adventurers.

And no, I've never actually punched a kitten or done anything drastic. The worse would probably be throwing up my arms or facepalming.


- Do you think permadeath could become a popular concept in mainstream game design? Why or why not?

No. It has to be done right to be interesting. Most companies would fail that. For example, Diablo 2 has a hardcore option, but I really hate it in that game. Plus it's impossible for most characters to beat Duriel without getting killed unless they grind a lot or play online. Might be why it annoys me.


- What originally drew you to roguelikes? What keeps you playing them?

Heard about Crawl on another webboard, tried it out. Was fun. Crawl's the only one I've played. I can't seem to get into any of the others.


- To you, what's one example of good game design in Crawl that makes permadeath more entertaining/interesting?

Jim Bob, began as a Human Internet User.
Slain by an Internet Troll...
...wielding a +13,+37 keyboard of flaming
...on level 3 of the Dungeon Crawl Forums

In other words, that and keeping a record of your top hundred deaths, some of which can be quite amusing. "Forgot to breathe" is still one of my top ten scorers.

[Zicher]

- Do you get emotionally attached to particularly promising characters?
A bit, I guess. The relation grows stronger the further the character gets .

- Roughly how many games of Crawl have you played? About how many of those were wins?
1105 games on CAO/CDO up to now. Seven wins, one of them an all-runer.

- How do you feel when a character dies? Does it matter whether they're far along in the game or not?
Depends on the way I die - whether it's my stupidity/overconfidence, or it's dying to the unseen horror I absolutely have no way to deal with.
The further the char is, the more frustrating is to lose it

- Do you consider your character an "avatar" for yourself, or are you playing a role? Do you have any formulas for naming your characters?
I tend to be holding to the early-game playstyle without branching out too much. This means, when I start as a fighter-type, I tend to stand so for the whole game.

- What's the feeling you get after you win a game of Crawl? Is it the same as the feeling you had when you won your first game?
The sense of achievement is still great, but my first win felt much greater. Still, winning is fairly rare to me to become ordinary.

- In contrast, does dying frustrate you, or do you think it's a necessary to the pleasure of the game? Have you ever done anything drastic after a particularly brutal or noteworthy death?
Dying is a bit frustrating, but one has to keep himself in control. Some cursing is OK, but smashing my head against a wall? It's just a game .

- Do you think permadeath could become a popular concept in mainstream game design? Why or why not?
It will not, I guess. I can't for example run around with Max Payne through the early subway levels for hours all over again after dying in the last episode.
Permadeath is perfectly suited for games that are not repetitive, where each early game makes for a different experience. That's why it is fine in roguelikes.

- What originally drew you to roguelikes? What keeps you playing them?
There are quite many reasons . The high replayability and well-balanced gameplay? Permadeaths? The sense of achievement? All of these?

- To you, what's one example of good game design in Crawl that makes permadeath more entertaining/interesting?
Again, it's the replayability. Without it, permadeath would hardly be suitable.

[zasvid]

- Do you get emotionally attached to particularly promising characters?

Oh yeah, once they get past a certain point of achievement I tend to store their morgue files in a 'graveyard' folder so I can reminisce about those fallen heroes.

- Roughly how many games of Crawl have you played? About how many of those were wins?

656 games, 2 wins (a few thousands of games of other roguelikes more, with a few dozens of wins).

- How do you feel when a character dies? Does it matter whether they're far along in the game or not?

Depends on the mode of death. Usually mostly sad, if it was out of the early game. In early game I only get frustrated by character deaths.

- Do you consider your character an "avatar" for yourself, or are you playing a role? Do you have any formulas for naming your characters?

Playing a role, definitely. I try to give "appropriate" names to my characters, sometimes trying to play a character akin to a real or fictional one (e.g. my monks often take names after real MMA fighters and high elves after various Noldor) or invent a new name (often digging in various dictionaries of both real and fictional languages to get a nice sound and meaning, e.g. I name deep elves using a dictionary of Dark Elven language from D&D).

- What's the feeling you get after you win a game of Crawl? Is it the same as the feeling you had when you won your first game?

Usually it's just a great deal of satisfaction, though particularly tough or impressive wins (including the first win) are truly exhilarating.

- In contrast, does dying frustrate you, or do you think it's a necessary to the pleasure of the game? Have you ever done anything drastic after a particularly brutal or noteworthy death?

It is necessary and oftentimes an interesting experience anyway. I only feel frustrated if my character didn't provide anything new to my experiences with the game (which in Crawl happens with a lot of D:1 deaths).

- Do you think permadeath could become a popular concept in mainstream game design? Why or why not?

For players, sure (not in all games, though). For game developers, it is a scary proposition, because current distribution models wouldn't work well with permadeath games (some players would be scared away from the game by permadeath, while others would spend more time playing such games, therefore not buying more).

- What originally drew you to roguelikes? What keeps you playing them?

I always had a good imagination and complexity of roguelikes was much greater than that of non-roguelikes at the time I discovered them and I keep playing them, because they're still fun I guess. Also, they have great replayability - I've been playing ADOM for a decade and I still sometimes discover new things.

- To you, what's one example of good game design in Crawl that makes permadeath more entertaining/interesting?

Well, I have no idea.

[Megabass]

- Do you get emotionally attached to particularly promising characters?
Oh sure, especially if the run has been particularly 'interesting', if you catch my meaning. Had an Orc Priest the other week with all sorts of neato crap going on. Beogh saving my ass multiple times right out of the starting vault, my small group of murderous disciples, the first of which saved me from a Giant Spore, and immediately gained priesthood, a set of artifact armor that totally fell in with the "Beogh shall be your shield. Fear no man or beast." kinda thing that was going on, (-2 cursed leather armor with a huge Str bonus), among other things. Ended up dying in the Lair, but I've got the morgue

- Roughly how many games of Crawl have you played? About how many of those were wins?
Good lord, more than I can count, but I've never won.

- How do you feel when a character dies? Does it matter whether they're far along in the game or not?
Well, that really depends on a lot of things. If it was some BS death on like D:1-4 or whatever, I could give a care, or if It's something I could have gotten out of had I not panicked, as I so often do (I know, I know, I'm awful), but occasionally something slips out that just burns my ass. (Walk downstairs, find the bottom immediately surrounded by people who can whip me, then die to attacks of opportunity while I run back up, or stepping on a teleport trap and getting sat in the middle of a crowd of orcs)

- Do you consider your character an "avatar" for yourself, or are you playing a role? Do you have any formulas for naming your characters?
To a point yes, and certainly on some characters more often than others. Occasionally you can really get sunk into it, you know? Like, try recording a log of what you consider interesting or important events during the dungeon, and you can easily scrap out a decent short story about your character's exploits. Plenty of examples to be found out there on the Crawl wiki. As for naming, I try to make it theme appropriate. (IE: Mummies are going to get appropriately Egyptian-sounding names, Mages have very elaborate or arcane names, and most of my Trolls are usually violent onomotopeoeas [Crunch, Thrash, etc]) I'll also 'retire' a name under certain circumstances. (Like the aforementioned orc) I've seen some other folks who use the same name over and over no matter what background/race they play, or folks with descriptive but boring names (ex: in another post someone's running a Mummy Ice Elemental named "IceMum2", and all I can really think is 'gee that's uncreative')

- What's the feeling you get after you win a game of Crawl? Is it the same as the feeling you had when you won your first game?
As previously stated, I haven't won yet, so I can't really say. That said, I can say that hitting other milestones has never quite been the same the second time around, so take that as you will.

- In contrast, does dying frustrate you, or do you think it's a necessary to the pleasure of the game? Have you ever done anything drastic after a particularly brutal or noteworthy death?
Oh, it's definitely necessary. I mean sure, it can be irritating to lose your character after all you've accomplished, but permadeath is part of what makes Roguelikes what they are. It's what separates your 'also ran' early death characters, from those that you send charging into hell(s). I'm not too sure what you mean by 'doing something drastic', but other than a brief swear, and dropping the game for the day, no.

- Do you think permadeath could become a popular concept in mainstream game design? Why or why not?
In mainstream game design? I really doubt it. I've tried to introduce a lot of my 'gamer' friends to Roguelikes, and that's a pretty big turnoff for them. A lot of folks don't seem to like the 'learn by your mistakes and start over' style.

- What originally drew you to roguelikes? What keeps you playing them?
Well, as I've said, I've never won. For me, that's a big part of what Roguelikes represent. I love these games, but they always beat me straight up, no strings or anything, and I can respect that. It also gives them a feeling of nigh-limitless possibility. There's always going to be something new just beyond where I've been before; thing's I've never seen, monsters I've only heard of in tales told by others, things like that. I'm a bit worried that once I actually nab the Orb of Zot, or Amulet of Yendor, or whatever macguffin and get out alive, the 'magic' of roguelikes will be lost.

- To you, what's one example of good game design in Crawl that makes permadeath more entertaining/interesting?
Well, player ghosts, for one. The chance of running into your old characters is neat, and there's something poetic about having to kick your own ass. :p

[Rafa]

Do you get emotionally attached to particularly promising characters?
Not to characters, but to promising games. I would hate losing that +6+9 stabby quickblade, but don't care much about rafa046 who wields it.

Roughly how many games of Crawl have you played? About how many of those were wins?
Spread over several computers and OSs my numbering got messed up often, maybe around 1000 games. No wins so far, one rune.

How do you feel when a character dies? Does it matter whether they're far along in the game or not?
Similar to first question, it is not death that bothers me, but losing the game. So of course it is worse when I'm further in. Those killed on the first few levels are forgotten as quickly as they were created. Dying after hours of playing the same game is mostly annoying as I usually spot several things in my inventory that I could have tried. Annoyed with myself for not stopping to think, misjudging my strength or forgetting about some rescue item/spell, not with the game itself. In the past I often abandoned games where I made it much deeper than before for fear of messing up now, I planned to continue these later when I'd become better, but rarely actually did it.

Do you consider your character an "avatar" for yourself, or are you playing a role? Do you have any formulas for naming your characters?
No, it's not me in any way. I do use names for my characters which I use as nicknames for myself elsewhere, but thats just lazyness, I have a good name so I don't have to think of another. All share the same name with a count attached to it. The base name changed only twice over the 8 months I've been playing. It has to be short because it must be typed again at the start of each game.

What's the feeling you get after you win a game of Crawl? Is it the same as the feeling you had when you won your first game?
Can't tell yet obviously. After my first (and only) nethack win I was both elated to have done it and a bit sad I could not continue to play this nice character. Again not because of a personality I attached to him -as I did not- but that special assortment of skills, spells and gear I've grown accustomed to. This disappointment was curiously similar to the feeling when dying, what bothers me is that I'm forced to abandon this char right now, when I might have liked to smash another floor full of monsters with it.

In contrast, does dying frustrate you, or do you think it's a necessary to the pleasure of the game? Have you ever done anything drastic after a particularly brutal or noteworthy death?
It is both frustrating and necessary. Nothing more drastic than not playing crawl for a while.

Do you think permadeath could become a popular concept in mainstream game design? Why or why not?
It won't. Permadeath seems much harsher than it really is. That it's "game over" on the first mistake is obvious after a minute, that the game is designed in a way to make that less of an issue (painlessly quick char creation, you don't need the loot/xp from ten games to win one and such) only becomes appearant later when you understand the game a bit better. By that time the casual gamer has started save scumming or moved on. Mainstream gaming seems to be mostly about beating games, not so much enjoying the path to doing so.

What originally drew you to roguelikes? What keeps you playing them?
I don't remember at all why I picked up nethack at some point. Now I only play Crawl anymore. I like that these games are both quick (my typical game might last ten minutes tops) and get interesting right away, no boring intro levels to sludge through every time. And i enjoy the "stories" that emerge from the game itself, recurring or particularly contradicting finds in the dungeon that set a theme in ongoing games. I find these way more interesting than most carefully created backstories, quests and such in role playing games, I am free to just have a bunch of pixels using certain keys at other pixels or start to wonder why there are 8 loafs of bread on this level.

To you, what's one example of good game design in Crawl that makes permadeath more entertaining/interesting?
The tab key to make starting another game like this just a single keypress. The huge selection of races, backgrounds and gods with all their respective gimmicks so you can tackle the game from a comletely different angle. All the vaults and special levels, you won't be able to see them all in a single game, starting over and over again remains interesting as there are new things to be found in every game.

[7hm]

Do you think permadeath could become a popular concept in mainstream game design? Why or why not?

Yes, I do.

Ok let me qualify that. I think there are limits, and I don't think you'll ever see it truly targeted towards the casual market, but it can certainly be used in a much large sense than it is right now. Games like Spelunky and DF make it clear that there is an audience for this type of mechanic outside of the traditional roguelike genre. It's not everyone, but it's a lot more people than are currently getting to experience it. The biggest thing for me is that permadeath in and of itself absolutely sucks. Permadeath needs to be accompanied by a strong level of randomization to avoid having to experience the same content repeatedly, thus burning you out on the content.

[joellercoaster]

On the permadeath front... I miss the days when you it was (hard but) not impossible to play through an entire video game without saving periodically and going back when you died.

Especially in the arcade - forcing yourself not to put in another coin and hit continue took a certain kind of discipline, but it was how you got good at stuff. It also meant you got longer for your money, repeatedly playing through the early parts of games until you could do them blindfolded. It made you actually learn the game and become skillful.

There are a handful of 80s/90s coin-op games I can probably still play through without dying because of that habit - Rogelikes just make it a design feature

[Zicher]

Especially in the arcade - forcing yourself not to put in another coin and hit continue took a certain kind of discipline, but it was how you got good at stuff. It also meant you got longer for your money, repeatedly playing through the early parts of games until you could do them blindfolded. It made you actually learn the game and become skillful.

There are a handful of 80s/90s coin-op games I can probably still play through without dying because of that habit - Rogelikes just make it a design feature

Good to know someone has in the roguelike world has a similar arcade game training.
In fact, this experience might help to accept and embrace permadeath in roguelikes .

[Grimm]

There is a recent freeware shooter called Hydorah that replicates the old coin-op style of play: enemies move in strict patterns and you have to get it exactly right all the time. And there are only like three save points or something. It's incredibly difficult but captures that old feel.

http://www.locomalito.com/juegos_hydorah.php

[Zicher]

Going far off topic, but - a truckload of the arcade games are emulated and playable on your computer via the MAME (Multiple Arcade Machine Emulator).
It's nice to be able to take Mike Haggar to the streets once again .

[absolutego]

i'm more of the bullet hell family, but if you want a modern old-school shooter you can't do better than gradius v (ps2 yes).
i'll try that hydorah thing if i ever install windows.

[onryo]

Since we're already off topic, Everyone should be made aware that Linley Henzell, the original designer of crawl, moved on to mostly designing shmups. That's how I actually found crawl, after playing white butterfly. http://db.tigsource.com/games/white-butterfly

[whelen]

Raising this thread from the dead, for better or for worse. I could never get a Kiku worshipper off the ground.
This is what I ended up with for the article. It's very fluffy and not really newsy news news, but that's reality for you. Thanks to everyone who participated: very insightful, and interesting to hear about your backgrounds in gaming.

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup: Dying was Never so Fun

Whether they’re decapitated, disintegrated, eviscerated, drowned, or have a levitation spell expire over molten lava, every character death in Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup is worth the time it takes to get there. Stone Soup is a computer game where the goal is to retrieve the fabled Orb of Zot, an artifact sought by intrepid adventurers since time immemorial. While this may sound like a Lord of the Rings derivative, let me remind you that neither Frodo nor Bilbo Baggins ever died while their plot was in progress. In Stone Soup, you’ll die. You’ll die hundreds if not thousands of times. I promise.

By you, I mean your character in the game. You can play as a human, an elf, a centaur, a sentient housecat, or numerous other races seemingly ripped straight from a 1980’s pulp fantasy paperback. Regardless of which you choose, you’re flung into a 27-level dungeon filled with enemies. In typical enemy fashion, they’ll kill you or you’ll kill them. Wager on the former.
When you die though, your character doesn’t spontaneously regenerate at a nearby location. You’ll never play that character again. Your character gets a short epitaph saying what race and class they were, along with how they were killed. Then they’re gone, and it’s all your fault.

Why is it your fault? Because success in Stone Soup is based on risk management. You decide whether to attack that menacing ogre, or that ferocious kobold, or that majestic golden dragon. Make the wrong decision and you’ll suffer the consequences. Rarely can a player explain away death as being “unlucky.” This is what separates games like Stone Soup from mainstream videogames; there’s no reloading or respawning, there’s only pitiful, embarrassing failure and (hopefully) a lesson learned.

One Stone Soup player who goes by Ashery on the Stone Soup forums highlights an idea of thematic interest. “Death is a necessary tension element,” he says. “Without which the game wouldn't be nearly as enjoyable.” Death in this game is the thrill of the chase with great failure grinning as it looms just over the horizon. Stone Soup gives no free lunches, and as a player you slowly realize that you never needed any lunch at all.

Is it possible to retrieve the Orb of Zot and win the game? Absolutely. What does it feel like to people who have accomplished this task? “Massive relief that I didn't screw it up, followed by a brief elation, then I immediately start thinking about the next combo to win with,” says tcjsavannah, another Stone Soup forum-goer. That’s the big draw to permanent death in a game — far from a feeling of accomplishment, the player can continue to tempt fate with character after character combination, from high elf hunter to ogre gladiator. A first taste of success leads to a fierce desire for more and greater, even as the uncounted failures are forgotten when juxtaposed against the shining successes. This game is, in short, human history condensed into five and a half megabytes.

[galdon]

- Do you get emotionally attached to particularly promising characters?

I tend to get about as attached to a character as the time spent developing them. The longer I play a character the more frustrating it gets to lose them.

- Roughly how many games of Crawl have you played? About how many of those were wins?

Started playing around a week or so ago, played a few dozen times, no wins yet.

- How do you feel when a character dies? Does it matter whether they're far along in the game or not?

Feel frustrated; It's worse when it either happens at the very start, or is so drawn out that it feels like my character had been on the 'verge of death' consistantly for several floors.

- Do you consider your character an "avatar" for yourself, or are you playing a role? Do you have any formulas for naming your characters?

In most games yes; in a game where my character is as expendable as this, no.

- What's the feeling you get after you win a game of Crawl? Is it the same as the feeling you had when you won your first game?

Don't know, haven't won yet.

- In contrast, does dying frustrate you, or do you think it's a necessary to the pleasure of the game? Have you ever done anything drastic after a particularly brutal or noteworthy death?

Perma-death is rather frustrating, haven't had a win to contrast how the sense of accomplishment compares. Haven't done anything extreme after a bad death.

- Do you think permadeath could become a popular concept in mainstream game design? Why or why not?

I hope not. There has been a small trend in flash games for 'one life' games where you aren't allowed to play the game at all after dying once. Perma-death is ok for a certain kind of challenge but I wouldn't want it everywhere.

- What originally drew you to roguelikes? What keeps you playing them?

Joined this one randomly, and this is my first Roguelike

- To you, what's one example of good game design in Crawl that makes permadeath more entertaining/interesting?

Couldn't say, as I haven't played other Roguelikes to compare.

Rarely can a player explain away death as being “unlucky.” This is what separates games like Stone Soup from mainstream videogames; there’s no reloading or respawning, there’s only pitiful, embarrassing failure and (hopefully) a lesson learned.

I'd beg to differ; sometimes you aren't given a choice on what attacks you when you have no means to escape the encounter at the time. Sometimes good gear just doesn't drop. Sometimes a monster with a ranged attack snipes you in one shot. Sometimes you just don't get enough EXP even killing everything you can get your hands on for your melee character to remain formidable in the new floors.

There are many ways to die that aren't strictly the -fault- of the player. You can do things to -minimize the chances- of an unlucky death, but only reduce, not eliminate entirely. You have no control over weather or not the level spawns 4-5 named enemies early on. You can't tell the game that you don't feel like having traps laid out on this level. You can't tell humanoid monsters not to pick up a powerful wand while your character is still low level.

There is a difference between 'fault' and misfortune. You can learn from misfortune, but it is not your fault that misfortune befell you.

Fault, is seeing a brand new enemy and charging it head-on and dying. You didn't know how strong it is, but you failed to take caution.
Misfortune is walking around a corner and seeing a small army of orcs while you are still too low level to beat them. You could not possibly have known all those orcs were there until you ran right into them.

[7hm]

I'd beg to differ; sometimes you aren't given a choice on what attacks you when you have no means to escape the encounter at the time. Sometimes good gear just doesn't drop. Sometimes a monster with a ranged attack snipes you in one shot. Sometimes you just don't get enough EXP even killing everything you can get your hands on for your melee character to remain formidable in the new floors.

There are many ways to die that aren't strictly the -fault- of the player. You can do things to -minimize the chances- of an unlucky death, but only reduce, not eliminate entirely. You have no control over weather or not the level spawns 4-5 named enemies early on. You can't tell the game that you don't feel like having traps laid out on this level. You can't tell humanoid monsters not to pick up a powerful wand while your character is still low level.

There is a difference between 'fault' and misfortune. You can learn from misfortune, but it is not your fault that misfortune befell you.

Fault, is seeing a brand new enemy and charging it head-on and dying. You didn't know how strong it is, but you failed to take caution.
Misfortune is walking around a corner and seeing a small army of orcs while you are still too low level to beat them. You could not possibly have known all those orcs were there until you ran right into them.

DCSS has very, very few situations where you can't escape. Sometimes you needed to do something 5 turns (or 50 turns, or 500 turns) ago in order to survive this particular situation, but a good, or great, player will have done that. The fact you didn't is what separates you from someone who can streak 15 wins in a row. Yes, the rng plays a part. But not to nearly as big an extent as you're suggesting.

In the particular situation you reference... you're not dead yet. You can escape from that. If you were exploring intelligently you should have an escape route, and short of being a naga, those orcs aren't going to be any faster than you. The difficulty with crawl is recognizing when a situation is getting too hot for you to handle.

[joellercoaster]

Misfortune is walking around a corner and seeing a small army of orcs while you are still too low level to beat them. You could not possibly have known all those orcs were there until you ran right into them.

Yeah, but because you walked around a corner to see them (which is the right way to travel), you can now swear colourfully, turn around, and run like a squirrel. Fault would be sticking around to duke it out... Misfortune would be having an orc wizard blink behind you, cutting off your escape while the others all piled on - but assuming you really did walk around a corner, that is thankfully quite unlikely

[galdon]

Misfortune is walking around a corner and seeing a small army of orcs while you are still too low level to beat them. You could not possibly have known all those orcs were there until you ran right into them.

Yeah, but because you walked around a corner to see them (which is the right way to travel), you can now swear colourfully, turn around, and run like a squirrel. Fault would be sticking around to duke it out... Misfortune would be having an orc wizard blink behind you, cutting off your escape while the others all piled on - but assuming you really did walk around a corner, that is thankfully quite unlikely

Yeah, running is the right option; but there are factors that may prevent you from being able to actually escape; such as that blinking, or having a class with low HP and getting blasted by wizards and orcs carrying bows/darts.

Having some bad luck on my current character, that hasn't quite killed me yet, but the last several floors have tons of water, and every time i get within sight of any water electric eels 'happen' to be exactly at that spot and knock down half my health with a lightning bolt. That certainly isn't player fault the level generated like that, but if I hit a teleport trap, get hit by something carrying a wand of teleport, I could end up too close to the water to get away from the things.

[snow]

- Do you get emotionally attached to particularly promising characters?

So there he was... after a long journey, Swifty was poisoned in Zot 4 with 1 hp left and nothing to save him. I was like "well Swifty, it was a good run, and this is it." and hit 5 after saying my goodbyes. How do you not get attached after spending days on a character? Swifty wasn't ready to go though... not just yet and shook off the poison like a champ. It seems through this entire game Swifty's motto has been "1 hp is all you need." having been knocked down to 1 hp half a dozen times and still ascended. As he ascended with the orb I was thinking "don't dieeee swiftyyyyyy"... yeah I get attached.

- Roughly how many games of Crawl have you played? About how many of those were wins?

100+ with only 2 wins. I'm still learning the ropes... no one wins within their first few games.

- How do you feel when a character dies? Does it matter whether they're far along in the game or not?

I'm mad if they die early but okay with it if they die late game. Usually late game deaths have something to teach you but early deaths are just damn annoying.

- Do you consider your character an "avatar" for yourself, or are you playing a role? Do you have any formulas for naming your characters?

Every combination gets a different name and I think of them as different people. None are me.

- What's the feeling you get after you win a game of Crawl? Is it the same as the feeling you had when you won your first game?

My first win was empty because I was playing a FeBe... it's impossible to lose with this combination and won with it on my first try back when I still sucked at the game. My second win was with Swifty the SpEn and felt like it was a stepping stone to something greater... having been so lucky throughout the game I knew I had a lot more to learn. The REAL accomplishment will be the 15 rune win.

- In contrast, does dying frustrate you, or do you think it's a necessary to the pleasure of the game? Have you ever done anything drastic after a particularly brutal or noteworthy death?

Permadeath is needed to make the game fun. And no... it's only a game.

- Do you think permadeath could become a popular concept in mainstream game design? Why or why not?

No. Kids these days like it easy... permadeath is too hardcore for a general audience.

- What originally drew you to roguelikes? What keeps you playing them?

Difficulty.

- To you, what's one example of good game design in Crawl that makes permadeath more entertaining/interesting?

The length of the game and how death is avoidable mid and late game. You get a mix of fearing death but being in control of your fate... I like that.