Suggestion: Apportation and doors

[Bim]

I've been playing quite a few stealthy chars (especially stealthy warpers) and a few times I've thought that it would be useful to be able to use apportation to close/open doors. Early levels this can help you stay out of the range of orc wizards/centaurs/kobolds for a few turns, and later game it can be occasionally useful whilst running away from non intelligent monsters or sneaking past others. This would make the spell moderately more useful as it's currently not overly useful other than the occasional gimmicky 'item surrounded by water' (which can be gotten with blink if it's important) and ninja-ing a few things.

I suppose the a problem could be that players tediously opening doors from a distance to get in a few turns of shooting, but if it could only be used to pull the door shut (this makes sense as apportation is only about pulling) then it wouldn't fall open to any tedium.

[Davion Fuxa]

Apportion having a little more usefulness wouldn't be a bad thing - and I like the utility aspect of this idea. Another idea though might simply be to make the spell destroy the door (you pull the door off its hinges) when you want to open a closed one.

[crate]

not sure that the best level 1 spell in the game needs to get better....

[Galefury]

There are very few ways to manipulate doors from a distance because that you have to get close to them to open them and see what's behind them is almost the only reason doors exist.

[Bim]

That's why I was suggesting that it can only pull doors shut - I suppose it could also have a chance to slam the door shut creating a bit of noise. I don't see how it's the best level 1 spell? I mean it's useful in some extremely limited circumstances and for occasionally grabbing stuff near dangerous asleep monsters, but I only use it a few times a game at most, even when playing as a stealthy class.

[Galefury]

It can be very useful for getting runes and the like without killing the guards. If you can just grab the rune from the edge of los that's a lot less turns you need to spend near dangerous monsters.

[Davion Fuxa]

not sure that the best level 1 spell in the game needs to get better....

Making a simple spell just to open or close a door though seems a little questionable and apportion seems like a decent choice to add this feature too.

There are very few ways to manipulate doors from a distance because that you have to get close to them to open them and see what's behind them is almost the only reason doors exist.

Doors can be used to block chasing enemies that can't open doors, to break line of sight on enemies that attack at range, and I sometimes use them to track enemies on a level I want to kill by closing doors to areas I have checked for moving enemies. Adding the ability to just close doors would certainly increase its tactical ability in those situations - which may have nothing to do with initially opening the door to see what might be behind it.

If the spell is felt to be overpowered by this then it can be nerfed in areas of grabbing runes - which may be a good idea anyway since they are suppose to be well guarded.

[Bim]

Granted, it can be useful for grabbing some runes, but isn't that a bit of a problem? I mean I know the Orb was made heavier/impossible to apport for that reason, so could runes be made un-apportable/heavy and then apportation could be given new mechanics? f

[Galefury]

Why? Doors are good the way they are, aren't they?

[BountyHunterSAx]

not sure that the best level 1 spell in the game needs to get better....

Not sure if this is a troll post, but it's not April 1st, so I'll bite.

Please explain why Apportation is the best lvl 1 spell. I can think of at least 3 spells that are better:

1.) Magic Dart/Sting - makes short work of most creatures in the early game and is the only source of damage you *need* to clear the D:1-7 if you can get it reliable.
2.) Animate Skeleton - Massive utility, mobile meatshields, rapid-butchery (I've used this in Zigs against phoenixes) especially for non-edged weapon users.
3.) Summon Butterflies - I have personally used this spell to survive Orbs of Fire and Ancient Liches. Not sure how much more you can want out of a lvl1 spell.

-AHMAD

[Davion Fuxa]

Why? Doors are good the way they are, aren't they?

If the spell adds a little more tactical choice for players, is their any problem with making Doors better?

[khalil]

because sometimes you want to pick up items

-CRATE

Personally, when I want to pick up items, I use my hands.
Joking aside, the only time apportation is useful is if some vault designer decided to place an item on top of a teleporter trap. That is literally the only time I have ever used that spell.

[galehar]

The fact that you don't use the spell isn't really proof that the spell isn't very useful. Other players play the game, and maybe not like you.
I don't like this proposal. If you can just close doors, it's usefulness would be very anecdotal. If you can also open them, it's pretty good but boring. Doors are interesting because they force you to reveal many cells at once. If you can open them from a distance, you'll usually want to if you have any ranged attack. Also, it would kinda break autoexplore.
Being able to do one but not the other would be very strange. The "apportation only pulls" justification makes no sense, you don't know which way doors open.
So the main problem IMO is not how it changes apportation, but how it changes doors, in a way that makes them less interesting.

[khalil]

The fact that you don't use the spell isn't really proof that the spell isn't very useful. Other players play the game, and maybe not like you.

Yes, but I'm not even sure as to any other uses for it. The only thing I can think of is grabbing the orb/runes of zot without fighting the guardians and I think that got patched.

[rchandra]

The fact that you don't use the spell isn't really proof that the spell isn't very useful. Other players play the game, and maybe not like you.

Yes, but I'm not even sure as to any other uses for it. The only thing I can think of is grabbing the orb/runes of zot without fighting the guardians and I think that got patched.

You can apport runes just fine. The Orb has a chance of stopping the apport, but if you have good spellpower it's not a problem.

Grabbing those items isn't an "only" - it's very important and those are some of the more dangerous areas, spending fewer turns there is very good. This is even more true in Hells and Tomb as grabbing the rune enables cTele. A couple of days ago I went through a portal in Pandemonium, appearing in sight of the lord, some fiends, and eyes of draining guarding the demonic rune. I just disintegrated the cage, started a teleport, apported the rune, and then there was no trouble.

Similarly, sometimes you can apport items to spend less time in other dangerous vaults. If you are abandoning a ziggurat floor (or the ziggurat), you can stand on the stairs/portal and apport some choice items before escaping.

In occasional situations apporting your ammunition (javelins/rocks/needles) is useful but that's more niche.

and Warpers may want to save items from early jellies!

[crate]

If you are standing on a space, and there is an item you want and that item is not on the very same space you are on ...

then apportation is a good spell.

Think about how often this happens in a typical game of crawl.

[XuaXua]

I know I've asked for this enhancement before and got shot down multiple times. Good to see I'm not the only one who sees value in it.

[galehar]

I know I've asked for this enhancement before and got shot down multiple times. Good to see I'm not the only one who sees value in it.

The fact that other people share your idea doesn't make it a good one. At best, it's not terrible, hope that comforts you.
We don't make design decisions based on how popular an idea is, nor by how many times someone asks for it.
At least, this time, a dev took the time to explain what was bad about it. If you think I'm wrong you might try to give arguments instead of repeatedly asking for something which has been refused already.

[Bomanz]

Galehar makes a good point. It's about doors, not apportation. Maybe it could be one of those random god powers though.

[khalil]

If you are standing on a space, and there is an item you want and that item is not on the very same space you are on ...

then apportation is a good spell.

Think about how often this happens in a typical game of crawl.

I've allways found that the mp that could be used to do this is better used to throw death beams at people.

[galehar]

I've allways found that the mp that could be used to do this is better used to throw death beams at people.

You know, sometimes you don't want to kill the monster but you still want to pick the item. Maybe that doesn't happen to you because you try to kill all monsters. Many (good) players don't. Again, when discussing game design, try to keep in mind that there are other way of playing the game than your own.

[khalil]

The fact that you don't use the spell isn't really proof that the spell isn't very useful. Other players play the game, and maybe not like you.

Yes, but I'm not even sure as to any other uses for it. The only thing I can think of is grabbing the orb/runes of zot without fighting the guardians and I think that got patched.

You can apport runes just fine. The Orb has a chance of stopping the apport, but if you have good spellpower it's not a problem.

Grabbing those items isn't an "only" - it's very important and those are some of the more dangerous areas, spending fewer turns there is very good. This is even more true in Hells and Tomb as grabbing the rune enables cTele. A couple of days ago I went through a portal in Pandemonium, appearing in sight of the lord, some fiends, and eyes of draining guarding the demonic rune. I just disintegrated the cage, started a teleport, apported the rune, and then there was no trouble.

Similarly, sometimes you can apport items to spend less time in other dangerous vaults. If you are abandoning a ziggurat floor (or the ziggurat), you can stand on the stairs/portal and apport some choice items before escaping.

In occasional situations apporting your ammunition (javelins/rocks/needles) is useful but that's more niche.

and Warpers may want to save items from early jellies!

I'll shut up then.
It's wierd how some of the more useless seeming spells end up being important later. If I had to guess what spell could be used to create a barrier that can only be penatrated via lightning, summon butterflies would not have been my first choice.

[Sandman25]

Lightning is not the only way to get through butterflies. Yesterday I had to use apportation to get a pan rune because Lom Lobon had Ice Storm and Major Healing while I did not have good channeling and did not want to use Revivification.

[XuaXua]

Galehar makes a good point. It's about doors, not apportation. Maybe it could be one of those random god powers though.

I do like the new Vault monsters who work with doors, so there's something interesting added to the Crawl mix. I agree that more can be done. There is at least one Door God on the dev wiki. Can it be scavenged?

[Bim]

I agree Apportation can be useful in certain circumstances, and I had assumed that ninja-ing the runes was significantly more difficult/impossible now (which I still think it should be) so I was looking to make it more useful due to that, as well as to potentially add another level of tactics/worth for the spell (I never said it should stay at lvl 1 either!)

I do get that it would be more difficult justifying 'only closing doors' to players (as they would stand on the other side and it not work) although it's hardly that strange compared to other things in crawl and could be easily explained with 'it can also pull doors shut'. Wardens also have this power now, and I agree that it would be a very good God power if apportation can still be used for pulling Runes..

[colin56]

The apportation of door is good idea for dealing with the problem of opening and closing doors.
As the continuous changes in game design is very important for dealing such problems in game.

[twelwe]

not sure that the best level 1 spell in the game needs to get better....

Making a simple spell just to open or close a door though seems a little questionable and apportion seems like a decent choice to add this feature too.

there are nine - or seventeen if you like - ways of opening doors. y,u,g,h,j,k,b and n all work. in fact, you can even hold shift and still use these keys to open OR close doors. You could also use OOD to blow open doors once you've destroyed all the walls around them. Even disintegration might work!

[twelwe]

or you could corrupt the door

[rebthor]

LRD opens doors in style.

[prozacelf]

I now have an urge to make an EE and open every door I see with LRD once I get it.

[Frelus]

Not only you, mate, not only you.
Reminds me of the Dresden Files book 1.

[njvack]

OK, this topic has gone off the rails far enough to make its way to CYC...

[prozacelf]

There's already a similar discussion still in GDD anyway....

I never got around to reading Dresden Files. Seems a lot like the Garrett, P.I. series from what I know about it though. And I like Garrett.

[chukamok]

I'm on book 2 (Fool Moon). I'm liking it so far. It helps that it's set in Chicago, my home town.