Long term proposal: limbs and materials

[red_kangaroo]

Quite a while ago, I've played a roguelike called Iter Vehemens ad Necem. You can look here to find the homepage of the game or on its wiki. It's not developed for several years, but still, it's one of the best roguelikes I've ever played (apart from Crawl, which is the best, of course ).

So, the best things on IVaN are the limb system (You have separate HP for each limb and you can lose your limbs without dying. But it's definitely better not to lose your limbs, as fighting a werewolf with only one hand is kind of awful. I died in this combat. ) and materials (Every weapon can be generated with different materials, changing its attributes accordingly. The difference between iron sword and mithril sword is very recognizable and finding a scroll of change material can make your life much easier.). I would adore to see these two things implemented to Crawl, even though it would probably change the game very much.

What do you think?

[battaile]

Sure, these sound like really simple changes that can only make the game better.

[nicolae]

IVAN was a fun game (I mean, as long as you weren't planning on getting very far and were mostly just in it to make your legs fall off from walking over broken glass bottles) but like battaile said, this would require a huge amount of changes just to replace a system that already works. If Crawl had been built and designed from the ground up using the IVAN-style limbs-and-materials system that'd be one thing.

[blackcustard]

red_kangaroo: Crawl isn't IVAN. The limb and material systems work for IVAN, but that is not a good reason to add them to Crawl.

In IVAN, you want to upgrade your equipment for two reasons, AFAIK:
1. Better material equipment is better -- I do not think a new way to upgrade your equipment would add anything interesting to the game. We already have gods that give brands, enchant scrolls, and randarts.
2. Better material equipment is less likely to be destroyed -- Crawl has (controversial) item destruction already, applying it to equipment too is probably a bad idea.

The limb thing is IVAN's gimick. If we copy it, our copy will probably suck. Also, it will be a copy. Besides, you can already upgrade your character with gods, skills, and equipment. And you can suffer semi-permenant damage in the form of mutations. What do we need replacement mithril arms for?

[mumra]

DF has the whole limbs things too (and brains, kidneys, pinky toes, and numerous other parts for which we should be probably thankful that it's only rendered in ASCII). Does it make the game fun? Occasionally, sure, but other times (for me anyway) it feels too much like a simulation.

All these games are abstractions and in Crawl the important abstraction is how dead you are. It's up to the player if they want to imagine they were limbless crawling around in a pool of blood and vomit on 5HP then magically grew all those limbs back while they were resting. We definitely don't need to force that level of detail down a player's throat.

[evilmike]

Crawl will never have a limb system. To make that kind of system work, you actually need to design it properly and design the game around it. And don't even mention the DF system, that level of simulation works well in producing combat messages, but it is NOT the type of thing appropriate to a game like crawl which focuses on tactical depth. If you don't understand why, stop posting here and read up on the game's design philosophy.

[mumra]

Crawl will never have a limb system. To make that kind of system work, you actually need to design it properly and design the game around it. And don't even mention the DF system, that level of simulation works well in producing combat messages, but it is NOT the type of thing appropriate to a game like crawl which focuses on tactical depth. If you don't understand why, stop posting here and read up on the game's design philosophy.

Note: I only mentioned DF as an extreme example of why not to have this in Crawl. The OP didn't even mention it.

[battaile]

Crawl will never have a limb system. To make that kind of system work, you actually need to design it properly and design the game around it. And don't even mention the DF system, that level of simulation works well in producing combat messages, but it is NOT the type of thing appropriate to a game like crawl which focuses on tactical depth. If you don't understand why, stop posting here and read up on the game's design philosophy.

Um ... I only mentioned DF as an extreme example of why not to have this in Crawl. The OP didn't even mention it.

Why are you posting here instead of reading the design docs

[yogaFLAME]

Guitar Hero has some sweet mechanics that I'm a fan of too, but I'm pretty sure they don't belong in Crawl.

[evilmike]

I only mentioned DF as an extreme example of why not to have this in Crawl. The OP didn't even mention it.

But you just did again!!!

Now I will stab you in the torso with my <<gorilla bone spear>>, tearing the muscle, and fracturing the pancreas.

[nicolae]

Guitar Hero has some sweet mechanics that I'm a fan of too, but I'm pretty sure they don't belong in Crawl.

The Castle passtune from Nethack, it's finally back and worse than ever

[Fergy]

Wyvern had a limb system that might work with crawl... Each body part had it's own AC value. With each attack, a roll would determine which body part was hit. If the torso was hit, the torso AC would absorb damage. If the head was hit, the head AC would absorb damage. (etc.)

The hit body part could be weighted based on the difference in size of the monsters (a rat would more likely hit the feet, while a giant would more likely hit the head).

[Pereza0]

Wyvern had a limb system that might work with crawl... Each body part had it's own AC value. With each attack, a roll would determine which body part was hit. If the torso was hit, the torso AC would absorb damage. If the head was hit, the head AC would absorb damage. (etc.)

The hit body part could be weighted based on the difference in size of the monsters (a rat would more likely hit the feet, while a giant would more likely hit the head).

Doing something like this would mean having to redo crawl all over. It would make more sense to do it in an entirely different game or a fork.

[XuaXua]

If you don't understand why, stop posting here and read up on the game's design philosophy.

Um ... I only mentioned DF as an extreme example of why not to have this in Crawl. The OP didn't even mention it.

Why are you posting here instead of reading the design docs

Yeah! Stop posting immediately and read directions! How dare you make the mistake of posting! GET OFF THA FORAM!

[colin56]

The addition of limbs and materials system is very good idea for advancement in crawl.
But it is very necessary to consider what kind of material is to be added to make it nice.

[graffen69]

Crawl is already brutal enough without the added vulnerability that body parts usually means.

[giygas]

The kobold attacks with the +1, +1 Rusty Sword. You have contracted tetanus! You feel a mild muscle spasm in your left arm.

Will this be added?
Short answer? No.
Long answer?
...
...
...
No.
Fork Crawl and do it yourself, if you believe this is such a good idea.

[njvack]

CONTINUED THREAD LIFE: CONFIRMED

SILLINESS THRESHOLD: EXCEEDED

THREAD MOVED TO: CRAZY YUIF'S CORNER

[Grimm]

it's the circle of life

[giygas]

it's the circle of life

No, it's the circle of unlife. When I read

  Code:

You ponder the meaning of unlife

for the first time, it cracked me up.

[mrbobbyg]

Can't we keep CYC limited to meta posts about the CYC meta plz?

It's like it's becoming GDD-fails.