wolloloo gets angry about stashing


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Post Wednesday, 29th August 2012, 23:01

wolloloo gets angry about stashing

Grimm wrote:Great effort has been put into Crawl to eliminate the tedium from ... stash management ...

Carrying capacity and stashes are the single biggest spoiler to (not only) role playing games. It may be "realistic", but it's stupid, boring and a horrible waste of time. Crawl would be better = more enjoyable if you just had a magic sack that could hold an unlimited number of items. Oh, how I loved good old Ultima III for allowing you to carry up to 99 pieces of each and every item in the game at the same time, for example 99 plate armours.

Well, at least Crawl does not have that idiotic backpach that looks like a grid where you have to fit in everything.

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Post Wednesday, 29th August 2012, 23:14

Re: I think I found something worth checking out today.

wolloloo wrote:Crawl would be better = more enjoyable if you just had a magic sack that could hold an unlimited number of items.

I disagree strongly. Limited carrying capacity forces interesting choices.

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Post Wednesday, 29th August 2012, 23:22

Re: I think I found something worth checking out today.

Grimm wrote:I disagree strongly. Limited carrying capacity forces interesting choices.

What choices please, and are you saying that "interesting" is identical to "fun"? It just leads to people wasting 10% of their playing time doing stash management - for an average (winning) game of mine that would be two or three hours. Maybe not everybody wastes so much time doing it, but if you watch people playing webtiles and peek into random games you'll always have a good percentage of people wasting time on scroll, food, potion and book management at their lair or hell stash. Now how much fun is that? Have you ever _asked_ all these people who do lots of stash management if they think it's fun?

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Post Wednesday, 29th August 2012, 23:40

Re: I think I found something worth checking out today.

wolloloo wrote:
Grimm wrote:I disagree strongly. Limited carrying capacity forces interesting choices.

What choices please

When you have to go into an area that might require many tools and you can't pack everything you want. I'm off to Pan, should I pack that !curemut? I risk losing it to frost, but if I get a bad mute I lose the game. So I'll pack it. But now I can't carry my backup axe. What to do.

and are you saying that "interesting" is identical to "fun"?

Yes, for my purposes. Fun in gaming terms, especially in roguelikes, often involves difficulty and stress. The fun part is conquering them.

Wittgenstein wrote:Not funk but funk conquered is what is worthy of admiration and makes life worth having been lived. Courage, not cleverness; not even inspiration, - this is the grain of mustard that grows into a great tree. To the extent that there is courage there is a link with life and death. But you don't win courage for yourself by recognizing the want of it in someone else.


It just leads to people wasting 10% of their playing time doing stash management - for an average (winning) game of mine that would be two or three hours. Maybe not everybody wastes so much time doing it, but if you watch people playing webtiles and peek into random games you'll always have a good percentage of people wasting time on scroll, food, potion and book management at their lair or hell stash. Now how much fun is that? Have you ever _asked_ all these people who do lots of stash management if they think it's fun?

I might be an outlier here but I actually enjoy stash management. Here's proof. My idiosyncrasies aside though, two points:

1) Top players don't stash as much as us plebeians. Ask the blue boys sometime. It might be you that needs to improve your skill, not the game that needs to change to suit you.

2) It might be worth doing a poll to find out if there is discontent about stashing. I encourage you to do this. However first please do some research in the dev wiki and dredge the Tavern for old threads on the topic. There are sure to be several.

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Post Thursday, 30th August 2012, 00:26

Re: I think I found something worth checking out today.

Scumming is bad because "it encourages players to bore themselves". (Quotation from the menual.)

Can you please explain why stash management does not encourage people to bore themselves if scumming does? What is the difference other than that obviously some people who are in the power like stashes but not scumming?

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Post Thursday, 30th August 2012, 00:33

Re: I think I found something worth checking out today.

wolloloo wrote:Scumming is bad because "it encourages players to bore themselves". (Quotation from the menual.)

Can you please explain why stash management does not encourage people to bore themselves if scumming does? What is the difference other than that obviously some people who are in the power like stashes but not scumming?

Resource management.

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Post Thursday, 30th August 2012, 00:34

Re: I think I found something worth checking out today.

wolloloo wrote:Scumming is bad because "it encourages players to bore themselves". (Quotation from the menual.)

Can you please explain why stash management does not encourage people to bore themselves if scumming does? What is the difference other than that obviously some people who are in the power like stashes but not scumming?

The idea that you can carry all that you want is a bad one. Nethack has it, and is a worse game for it.
1) The interface gets worse. More pages to read through == bad.
2) This move would remove choices: consumables are limited, may be destroyed and are valuable. With your approach, you'd carry all of them, drop all when entering a new level etc. Same with food, wands etc. Often a non-issue, but consider Pan, portal vaults, banishment.
3) Stashing is not scumming. Where are its gameplay benefits, however small? Scumming = tedious, riskfree activity + actual gain.
4) Stashing may be tedious to you, but it is not necessary at all. We're aware that many players stash a lot, and the interface is good enough to do it with grace. Why should your bad habit lead to a worse game for everyone else?

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Post Thursday, 30th August 2012, 23:38

Re: I think I found something worth checking out today.

dpeg wrote:The idea that you can carry all that you want is a bad one. Nethack has it, and is a worse game for it.

Where's you proof or reasoning for that?

1) The interface gets worse. More pages to read through == bad.

How can the interface possibly have more pages than the current interface? Ctrl-f finds 90% items you are not interested in at all - hundreds or thousands in total. How could inventory management get worse than that?

2) This move would remove choices: consumables are limited, may be destroyed and are valuable. With your approach, you'd carry all of them, drop all when entering a new level etc. Same with food, wands etc. Often a non-issue, but consider Pan, portal vaults, banishment.

I never said that items are forced into the magic sack and that it should be impossible to take them out and drop them on the floor. And while it would certainly be possible to drop all potions, scrolls or wands from the magic sack, doing so will kill you as quickly as it does now. I don't see much of a change for consumables - if you want to drop them, you can do so.

But see below.

3) Stashing is not scumming. Where are its gameplay benefits, however small? Scumming = tedious, riskfree activity + actual gain.

1. If there were no benefits in stash management while it certainly is tedious and risk free then people would not do it.
2. That reasoning is flawed anyway: If it's a design principle to remove tedious, yet lucrative activities that involve little risk and that tend to bore players, it should be even _more_ a design principle to remove tedious and not lucrative but necessary activities that involve _no_ risk that tend to bore players. So what you said is a reason for my point of view, not for yours.

4) Stashing may be tedious to you, but it is not necessary at all.

Scumming may be tedious to you, but it is not necessary at all. So, where is the reason that stash management is treated differently from scumming? (Not to speak of the fact that there are weird people like me who do things like trying to bring every skill to 27 _without_ boring themselves.)

We're aware that many players stash a lot, and the interface is good enough to do it with grace.

Well, if you compare it with the many _worse_ interfaces in other games, then yes, crawls interface is good enough. From an objective point of view you might come to a different conclusion. Certainly there has been put a lot of effort into the usability of the interfaces. Yet the question remains whether the positive facets (e.g. strategic planning) of stashes outweigh the negative ones (e.g. boredom). In my eyes, that benefit of stashes is rather small, _and_ it can be simulated without stashes:

* You have a maximum set of 52 items that can be accessed immediately ("active inventory").
* You also have a "passive inventory" with unlimited capacity for items and weigt.
* Putting items into the passive inventory or taking them out takes extra time, maybe two extra turns to open and close it - enough that it's risky in tight situations; or the stash can not be accessed while there are monsters around (or both).
* The passive inventory cannot be dropped as a whole.
* Scrolls and Potions in the passive inventory could be protected by a conservation effect, but in principle items in the passive inventory can be destroyed.
* Items can be swapped between the active and the passive inventory.

Pros and cons:

+ No more running back to the stash because you forgot a specific piece of armour, a weapon, food, or can learn a new spell.
+ The flow of the game is not interrupted by forced visits to the stash. Games may also become more interesting to watch.
+/- It reduces the incentive for weak characters to raise their STR.
+/- You can carry home everything from a Ziggurat.
+/- Pretty much removes the possibility of starvation in most of the same (except at the start of the game, if you use too much food overall or harpies plunder the passive inventory).
-/0 It is not realistic. But then, how realistic are cats that can carry twenty rings, ten amulets, thirty scrolls, twelwe potions and 10000 gold with STR 4? (And why do characters never use a toilet if that's realistic?)
0 Strategic decisions "stash vs. inventory" become strategic decisions "active vs. passive inventory". There is still a reason to put a few valuable consumables in a safe place (to prevent that they all get destroyed).
0 You can still put everything on the floor, if you want to do that as "art".

Why should your bad habit lead to a worse game for everyone else?

Hey, come on, first you don't manage to produce any comprehensible reasoning for your point of view, and then you come down to personal insults? :(

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Post Friday, 31st August 2012, 01:58

Re: I think I found something worth checking out today.

The stash tracker lets you easily find whatever you've left behind and return to it. With the right settings, the autotravel takes no real time at all. The only price you pay is turns, which incurs a hunger cost, a score cost and, potentially, a piety cost. These costs are a part of the game, and removing them affects game balance and scoring.

And the benefits of this change are... what exactly? Not having to drop stuff on the ground and run back to it if you need it? Not having to worry about weight limits? It would remove one of the things that makes Crawl challenging for something you only articulate as "flow."

And stop acting butthurt when people criticize your ideas, then turning around and attacking them. It does nothing for your credibility.

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Post Saturday, 8th September 2012, 13:36

Re: wolloloo gets angry about stashing

The arrogance of people around here is really astounding. Time to leave this place.

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Post Saturday, 8th September 2012, 23:14

Re: wolloloo gets angry about stashing

Oh god, the humanity!
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Post Sunday, 9th September 2012, 12:30

Re: wolloloo gets angry about stashing

Actually I wanted to have a go at answering this, since a blessed bag of holding is something I greatly miss from Nethack and -on many levels- I'd like, but would detract from the game.

Firstly, it's tactical. There are lots of attacks in Crawl that can destroy items: Freezing; fire; harpies; and so on. Even if you have slots, you have to make a choice about how much to carry. Although I admit that I have gotten very frustrated when a single centaur pops around a corner, at a point where I can kill it with one blow, and flaming arrows all my scrolls; then I die soon after from a situation in which a single blink would have saved me. :-)
So, this proposal would make the game easier, as would cutting all monster HD in half, but would that be more fun?
The weight limit works on a similar level: You have to choose how much backup gear to bring. Again, I've died plenty of times with exactly the item I needed to survive safely back in my stash. :-) Now, this can easily be increased by choosing lots of Str on levelling-up, but then your spells will be a little weaker, and your mage won't get firestorm online until just too late for the fight where it would have saved you, etc. So, this limit is forcing you to make tactical choices. Get it wrong and it'll kill you - but isn't that the point of playing Crawl?

Regarding boredom, Crawl has a very nice interface. If stashing bores you, it's a sign you are doing it a bit too much. My own strategy, now I've got a few wins, is slowly evolving to do this a little less. I sometimes do mini-stashes at the start of branches to grab on the way back up. I leave a lot more stuff on the floor, confident that Ctrl-f will find it. Every time I win, I always have big piles of unused stuff stashed away. - So why did I spend the time stacking it?
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Post Sunday, 9th September 2012, 15:39

Re: wolloloo gets angry about stashing

dassem wrote:your mage

See, that's the flaw in your plan. :mrgreen:
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Post Sunday, 9th September 2012, 16:15

Re: wolloloo gets angry about stashing

Okay your fighter type won't be able to go with dex for evasion to prevent being squished by a ettin.
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Post Sunday, 9th September 2012, 19:17

Re: wolloloo gets angry about stashing

TehDruid wrote:
dassem wrote:your mage

See, that's the flaw in your plan. :mrgreen:

I'd seen your .sig a lot of times, but never really read it until now. :lol:
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Post Monday, 10th September 2012, 00:45

Re: wolloloo gets angry about stashing

TehDruid wrote:Oh god, the capacity!


FTFY
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Post Monday, 10th September 2012, 16:55

Re: wolloloo gets angry about stashing

My favorite proposed solution for this is still "spawn a second Temple entrance in the late Dungeon." Let's review:

PROS:
-you can still stash however much or little you want, and in real-time ctrl+f remains viable and wonderful
-no strategic decisions are eliminated-- just time and turns spent trekking back to L:2, a great reprieve for the obsessive-compulsive
-who doesn't like partying hard in the Temple?

CONS:
-somebody may have a deep emotional investment in trekking back to L:2, upon hearing this they would quit in a rage and create a new fork
-in fact the entire game is balanced around players trekking back to L:2, and changing it would break everything
-it's not a terribly elegant solution and perhaps "encourages" stashing by recognizing it

ALTERNATIVELY:
-just make jellies and humanoids spawn on every single level, your items are never completely safe again

It's a risky change to make but if we're resolute and brave perhaps we can march into a beautiful new future together
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Post Monday, 10th September 2012, 19:28

Re: wolloloo gets angry about stashing

Leave your crap on the ground like an animal and kill everything on the level. Enemies only pick up specific items so yes, your scrolls of enchantment, books, potions of cure mutation and whatever other nonsense is probably safer on the ground than in your constantly burning and chilling backpack.

The only things enemies might make off with are curing/wounds pots, wands, equipment, and tele/blink scrolls (maybe acquirement). There aren't half as many jellies as you think, just take a deep breath and repeat the mantra, "My junk is safe. Nobody will touch my junk."
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Post Monday, 10th September 2012, 20:11

Re: wolloloo gets angry about stashing

Note that while jellies are rare, it still happens...

I'd had cleared down to D7 without finding more then two or three scrolls of ID, so I dropped a ton of unidentified potions for later identification. Was walking around and suddenly "You hear a slurping sound!" :lol:
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Post Tuesday, 11th September 2012, 14:53

Re: wolloloo gets angry about stashing

cursednobleman wrote:"My junk is safe. Nobody will touch my junk."

The virginity is strong in this one.
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Post Tuesday, 11th September 2012, 17:58

Re: wolloloo gets angry about stashing

TehDruid wrote:
cursednobleman wrote:"My junk is safe. Nobody will touch my junk."

The virginity is strong in this one.


Well some people just can't let go of their junk! You should share your junk with people you care about. If you can't properly handle your junk, you'll never get off.
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Post Tuesday, 11th September 2012, 19:44

Re: wolloloo gets angry about stashing

I've only just recently finally set my travel delay to 0 and boy does it take a lot of tedium out of the game!

Another thing that is going to help a lot with inventory management is a new feature in the "known items" screen, you can now toggle autopickup for each type of item. So once you have one or two scrolls of remove curse in your backpack, you can turn them off and from there on they will be left randomly scattered through the dungeon. On the off chance that you need more, chances are there will be a couple close by. And by just leaving them where they are, you reduce the risk of a single jelly slurping up your whole pile.

My biggest beef with inventory management is not stashing it, but rather the problem of having to create stashes to drop weight from all the crap I keep autopicking up. I play mostly SpWz now so this is a tedious recurring issue and the feature above will really help with that.

I think adding in-game controls for the rest of init.txt could help further. I rarely touch init.txt because it's a separate thing I'd have to learn and do and I have to stop playing my fun game to do it. If I could change things like travel delay and the autofight threshold in-game I think I and a lot of other players would make better use of these features and have less occasion to complain about interface-related tedium.

I should say though that Crawl's interface is already outstanding for the genre.

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Post Tuesday, 11th September 2012, 20:44

Re: wolloloo gets angry about stashing

danr wrote:I've only just recently finally set my travel delay to 0 and boy does it take a lot of tedium out of the game!

What does this do?
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Post Tuesday, 11th September 2012, 20:50

Re: wolloloo gets angry about stashing

Grimm wrote:
danr wrote:I've only just recently finally set my travel delay to 0 and boy does it take a lot of tedium out of the game!

What does this do?


Whenever you auto travel, such as going to a certain level or item, or auto-exploring, or going to a staircase using the auto-travel commands (e.g. o, G, X, Ctrl-F), it computes everything in the background and only updates the screen when you get stopped by a monster or a trap, or, much of the time, because you actually reached your destination. By later in the game when much of the dungeon is cleared out you can travel across many dungeon levels without even being stopped once, so it only takes 1-2 seconds to get back to your stash or that other branch you've decided to do next.

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Post Tuesday, 11th September 2012, 20:55

Re: wolloloo gets angry about stashing

Holy death yaks that's convenient. Is it simply a matter of uncommenting something in init.txt?

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Post Tuesday, 11th September 2012, 20:58

Re: wolloloo gets angry about stashing

The default line in init.txt is:
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# travel_delay = 20

You'd want to uncomment it and change the value to 0.

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Post Tuesday, 11th September 2012, 21:11

Re: wolloloo gets angry about stashing

I think this is probably the single biggest reason some players seem to manage such ungodly short real-time times for their wins.

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Post Tuesday, 11th September 2012, 21:24

Re: wolloloo gets angry about stashing

The secret is out! Do we have a thread yet for Awesome Settings?
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Post Tuesday, 11th September 2012, 21:25

Re: wolloloo gets angry about stashing

Grimm wrote:The secret is out! Do we have a thread yet for Awesome Settings?

Yeah I just created one in Advice.

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Post Tuesday, 11th September 2012, 23:01

Re: wolloloo gets angry about stashing

I find no travel delay way too disorienting. I save no time because I end up using shift+x to trace how I suddenly got here.
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Post Tuesday, 11th September 2012, 23:21

Re: wolloloo gets angry about stashing

Me too. That's why I usually set it to 10, but that's a discussion for the other thread.

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Post Wednesday, 12th September 2012, 08:26

Re: wolloloo gets angry about stashing

inkydood wrote:I find no travel delay way too disorienting. I save no time because I end up using shift+x to trace how I suddenly got here.


try show_travel_trail = true.

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Post Monday, 17th September 2012, 20:11

Re: wolloloo gets angry about stashing

danr wrote:I think this is probably the single biggest reason some players seem to manage such ungodly short real-time times for their wins.


Actually it isn't. My record (1h 8min) is set with it, but I have other very fast wins (sub-2h) without the setting. However, it is an advantage with no disadvantage, so the 10 minutes you do save with it are cool too. :)

My 15-rune record, which is the all-time record saved online, (3h 3min iirc) is also without that setting.

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Post Tuesday, 9th October 2012, 03:48

Re: wolloloo gets angry about stashing

Crawl is actually the only game I've ever played that I don't dislike the limited carrying-capacity in a general sense. There *are* a few points about it that bug me:

1.) Intelligence doesn't give you any secondary benefits beyond avoiding stat-death and helping you be a better caster. Dex -> ^Evade, Str -> ^Carrying Capacity. Unless Int has been changed to give ^MR while I wasn't paying attention :P.

2.) Chunks. UGH! Good lord it gets tedious trying to manage the weight of these things. I really wish rotten chunks weighed 1% or less of the full weight, just to speed up the process of venting that extra weight. Or maybe have a convenient macro to "dump all chunks but one", since under most normal conditions that's enough to eat and everything else rots by then anyway.


The idea of being able to only carry a limited set of wands, consumables, 'off-hand' staffs, jewelery, weapons etc. is a definite plus and fits well with roguelike philosophy.

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Post Tuesday, 9th October 2012, 04:30

Re: wolloloo gets angry about stashing

1) Int is already vastly overpreferred. It doesn't need to grant an extra benny.

2) I believe rotting chunks autodrop now, though I haven't confirmed this personally.

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Post Tuesday, 9th October 2012, 12:20

Re: wolloloo gets angry about stashing

There is an option for your rcfile to automatically drop rotten chunks. Check it, it should be in already (something like whateverrottenchunks = false and you need to change that to true).
And yeah, probably 70% of characters want to be picking int exclusively already. It's the last thing that should be buffed. Dex barely has benefits beyond ranged weapons stuff and EV too, so... and STR does exactly two things of note besides (mainly ranged) weapon damage, carrying capacity and armour usage. INT has spell success, spellpower, channeling with sif and spell hunger, which seems enough to me.

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Post Tuesday, 9th October 2012, 12:54

Re: wolloloo gets angry about stashing

auto_drop_chunks = never | rotten | yes

The only thing I can think of that BountyHunterSAx might have been complaining about is that Int is useless if you don't cast spells.

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Post Tuesday, 9th October 2012, 13:12

Re: wolloloo gets angry about stashing

And I was saying that the other stats are pretty limited too, and that INT does not need a buff. I assume he doesn't raise INT when not casting spells, so I don't see a problem in the least.

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