New Deity: Take 2


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Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 28th February 2013, 17:04

New Deity: Take 2

I have been thinking about what deities the game has and noticed some minor gaps. One gap is that there is only one generic combat and one melee dedicated deity. There seems to be no ranged focused deity. Another gap could be considered the Anti-Cheribdos where hasting is promoted. I'm sure the Anti-Cheribdos has been discussed before.

Archer/Ranged Diety - Likes killing with any ranged attack excluding magic, piety can be gained by praying over corpses and offering up ranged weapons that are not needed anymore. Dislikes any melee combat (minor piety loss).
Abilities: Create Ammo - Makes 2d10 of any ammunition type you choose. Cost - Hunger, 1mp
Stunning Shot - Deal reduced damage to paralyze target for 1d4 turns. Cost - Hunger, 2mp, piety
Trick Shot - Fires an arrow that has piercing and reflects off of walls up to max range. Cost - Hunger, 5mp, piety
Shockwave - Knocks all adjacent enemies 4 spaces in a random direction. Cost - Hunger, 5mp, piety

Anit-Cheribdos Diety - Like the killing of slower creatures, promotes the use of quickblades, branded speed weapons, and boots of running. Dislikes the use of any slowing rods/spells on anything, amulets of stasis, use of ponderous equipment, and resting (lose 1 piety every 25 turns while resting).
Abilities: Speeds up metabolism and regeneration with piety. Reduces action time as piety increases (max reduction 0.2 turns).
Reckless Charge - Dashes towards a target at a rapid pace dealing extra damage per tile traveled and comparative size. Max Range = 4 tiles, can miss, next round of creature melee/range attacks can deal extra damage. Cost - Hunger, 4 mp, piety, exhaustion
Stab and Run - Attack an adjacent target and move once space away from it. Can make a creature swap tiles with you if there is one in the retreat space. Cost - minor hunger, 2mp
1000 blades - A random and unfocused attack that randomly strikes adjacent tiles. Number of attacks range from 100 to 1000. Each strike does only 1 damage. Cost - Hunger, 10mp, piety

Let me know what you like, dislike, and any possible suggestions on developing these ideas further.
It is all fun and games until Xom tosses you into the Abyss.

Vestibule Violator

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Post Thursday, 28th February 2013, 17:22

Re: New Deity: Take 2

I suggest not developing these ideas further. These gods seem uninteresting, and extremely overpowered. Trick Shot is the only ability I somewhat like.

I think your approach of coming up with a unifying theme first, then filling in the gameplay, is good. But the theme's aren't fleshed out at all (ranger god, fast god), and the abilities you come up with are pretty bad in my opinion.

Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 28th February 2013, 18:02

Re: New Deity: Take 2

Galefury wrote:I suggest not developing these ideas further. These gods seem uninteresting, and extremely overpowered. Trick Shot is the only ability I somewhat like.

I think your approach of coming up with a unifying theme first, then filling in the gameplay, is good. But the theme's aren't fleshed out at all (ranger god, fast god), and the abilities you come up with are pretty bad in my opinion.


Your comments are very uninteresting, unhelpful and destructive. The archer diety has no high power damage like Slouch (which can be considered game breaking). It has some decent escape defence abilities and some helpful attacks. Do you think short term paralysis is overpowered even if creatures can resist it? Do you think the random moving of adjacent creatures will save you from the elven armies at the bottom of the elven halls? The only real overpowered one would be the Anti-Cheribdos, but even the damage of the 1000 blades (as unpredictable as it could be) is nowhere near the power of Slouch.

I want constructive advice that promotes creativity, not dismissal and outright stubborn rejection.
It is all fun and games until Xom tosses you into the Abyss.
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Thursday, 28th February 2013, 18:10

Re: New Deity: Take 2

OH BOY
Your warning level: [CLASSIFIED]

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Post Thursday, 28th February 2013, 18:31

Re: New Deity: Take 2

I think the biggest problem with these proposals is that it really comes off as having no drawbacks to playing properly to begin with. Outside of everything else, that is the main problem with these ideas.
A Google Doc I wrote up in regards to making a new 'workable' definition for the Roguelike Genre:
Defining the Roguelike Genre

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 28th February 2013, 18:36

Re: New Deity: Take 2

Davion Fuxa wrote:I think the biggest problem with these proposals is that it really comes off as having no drawbacks to playing properly to begin with. Outside of everything else, that is the main problem with these ideas.

There are already several gods who have no drawbacks (other than not being able to worship a different god), so I don't see why this in particular is a problem....

(examples: vehumet, lugonu, ash (you don't get punished for not cursing things, you just don't get benefits), sif (ok you can actually get penance if you destroy a book but that is completely unimportant))

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Post Thursday, 28th February 2013, 18:50

Re: New Deity: Take 2

"hm, we have no opposite of chei, we should have an opposite of chei"
...
HOW DARE YOU GIVE ME ADVICE THAT DOESN'T PROMOTE CREATIVITY

On a more serious note: piety for item use (and, unrelated, casting spells) is terrible because you can just take a quickblade and kite an iron troll for ages until you have 200 piety. Enjoy. Plus, Fedhas is a great deity that works well with ranged weapons (make yourself a moat of water and shoot at dudes, shoot through plants, confuse people and then shoot at them freely), not to mention that there isn't a problem with two general combat deities - yes, Trog is good for ranged combat - catering to ranged users. That's like complaining that we don't have an ice spell that deals only damage at melee range because Freeze also slows cold-blooded monsters (ok that's a hyperbole but you get my point).
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Slime Squisher

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Post Thursday, 28th February 2013, 19:43

Re: New Deity: Take 2

Doesn't Okawaru support archery already? Weapon and ammo gifts, Heroism and Finesse?
Mangled by Mennas

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Post Thursday, 28th February 2013, 20:07

Re: New Deity: Take 2

crate wrote:There are already several gods who have no drawbacks (other than not being able to worship a different god), so I don't see why this in particular is a problem....

(examples: vehumet, lugonu, ash (you don't get punished for not cursing things, you just don't get benefits), sif (ok you can actually get penance if you destroy a book but that is completely unimportant))


To counter your examples: Sif and Vehumet have both been around a long time. if they were designed now, perhaps they would look a little different have more interesting conducts. On the other hand maybe it's ok to have some gods that are straightforward and make things simpler for particular playstyles, but these two (and some others) are known for not being terribly interesting, hence the recent Vehumet changes.

Ash is a bad example; sure you can do nothing but then why have a god? If you want the power you have to accept the drawbacks. This is a really interesting design (and Ash is a great god).

Lugonu is somewhat different, but she is outside of the pantheon and not guaranteed so is allowed to bend the rules a little (and most of her abilities do come with interesting drawbacks anyway).

The point is we don't need more gods with a design brief of "support [x] background". Religion is a really powerful vehicle to change the game up significantly and create entirely new playstyles. Rather than finding gaps to fill we have to look for entirely new themes and mechanics (this is very hard!)

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Post Thursday, 28th February 2013, 20:09

Re: New Deity: Take 2

i think you have completely missed the point of my post

also I very much disagree if you think that gods with no drawbacks are inherently bad

Anyway, out of the 18 gods in crawl:

9 gods have no significant drawback other than not being able to follow another god

5-6 gods have gods have noticeable drawbacks

2-3 gods have very significant drawbacks

1 god is Xom

(edit in case it's not clear I in no way am endorsing the god ideas presented in this topic. I am merely stating that gods without a drawback are not necessarily bad design.)

edit2: i actually completely forgot that Jiyva eats items (because I never notice it) when I first posted so I fixed the numbers
Last edited by crate on Thursday, 28th February 2013, 20:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Thursday, 28th February 2013, 20:21

Re: New Deity: Take 2

crate wrote:i think you have completely missed the point of my post

also I very much disagree if you think that gods with no drawbacks are inherently bad

Anyway, out of the 18 gods in crawl:

10 gods have no significant drawback other than not being able to follow another god

4-5 gods have gods have noticeable drawbacks

2-3 gods have very significant drawbacks

1 god is Xom


I certainly didn't say they're inherently bad. Just not as interesting as ones that change the game up a bit. And I acknowledge that often it's nice to play something straightforward. My point was (and your numbers reinforce this): if we have 10 gods without drawbacks then surely we have all the bases covered in that arena and we don't need any more. On the other hand I think there is still plenty of design space for new and original themes and game mechanics; it's just much harder, which is why it's very rare for new gods (or species) to get added.

Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 28th February 2013, 20:22

Re: New Deity: Take 2

Hmmm... new themes you say? Maybe have a deity that joins you at a certain piety but if that avatar is destroyed the faith is gone. I could suggest a deity the alter the dungeon, but we don't want 27+ levels of the abyss.

Or maybe a trap layer could add some flavor (some abilities from Zot Defence). A minor trap would use only items and a major trap like a Zot trap would use tons of mana and most of your piety. Some abilities would drain dungeon traps of ammo/materials while others could move and rearrange traps.
It is all fun and games until Xom tosses you into the Abyss.

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Post Thursday, 28th February 2013, 21:01

Re: New Deity: Take 2

Maynot wrote:Hmmm... new themes you say? Maybe have a deity that joins you at a certain piety but if that avatar is destroyed the faith is gone.


This is something I haven't heard before but mechanically it's pretty much the same as receiving a permanent ally from one of the existing ally-gifting gods. The problem is that permanent allies are already overpowered and if this one had god-like powers then ... you get the picture. (That's not really what I was talking about by "theme", but it is a mechanic ... For theme look at Ashenzari's "bound" theme and how that feeds into the mechanics and right across the board into how it makes you play the game...)

Maynot wrote:I could suggest a deity the alter the dungeon, but we don't want 27+ levels of the abyss.


Also Lugonu already alters the dungeon so you'd have to be more specific about what kind of dungeon alteration you're talking about here. Player-controlled dungeon alteration can be dangerously overpowered as evidence by such spells as Tomb (which was removed) and Local Global (something from a hilarious Crawl variant).

Maynot wrote:Or maybe a trap layer could add some flavor (some abilities from Zot Defence). A minor trap would use only items and a major trap like a Zot trap would use tons of mana and most of your piety. Some abilities would drain dungeon traps of ammo/materials while others could move and rearrange traps.


The danger here is there's a lot of discussion about removing most traps entirely from the game. A trapper playstyle has been discussed in the past (see Traps page on devwiki) but the gameplay problem is that it ultimately results in a lot of tedious luring of monsters to get them to step on your traps.

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not intentionally trying to be unconstructive; the problem is that there are very few really "new" ideas, especially with the amount of stuff already in crawl and the volume of proposals posted here / on the devwiki.

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Post Friday, 1st March 2013, 07:07

Re: New Deity: Take 2

I think we need a god of gaps.
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Sewers Scotsman

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Post Friday, 1st March 2013, 09:51

Re: New Deity: Take 2

Vacuua, the God of Absences.

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Post Friday, 1st March 2013, 09:56

Re: New Deity: Take 2

---- the god of -----
piety accrues when you do nothing
grants ability to continue doing nothing without being bothered

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Halls Hopper

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Post Friday, 1st March 2013, 13:59

Re: New Deity: Take 2

Grimm wrote:I think we need a god of gaps.

Yukari?
/obscure Touhou reference
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Friday, 1st March 2013, 15:55

Re: New Deity: Take 2

MIC132 wrote:
Grimm wrote:I think we need a god of gaps.

Yukari?
/obscure Touhou reference


But Yukari is OP

Speaking of OP, namely "original poster"...
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Post Friday, 1st March 2013, 19:20

Re: New Deity: Take 2

We badly need the god of proper spelling, somebody call the grammar Nazis to perform the necessary rituals.
MuCK;
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612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll

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Post Friday, 1st March 2013, 19:25

Re: New Deity: Take 2

diety peity
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Post Friday, 1st March 2013, 20:45

Re: New Deity: Take 2

MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 1st March 2013, 20:56

Re: New Deity: Take 2

TehDruid wrote:ODE TO SPELL CHECKERS

Dude needs a format checker.
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Sewers Scotsman

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Post Friday, 1st March 2013, 21:09

Re: New Deity: Take 2

How about a game of checkers? I'm done with all this dying-in-a-dungeon schtick.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 1st March 2013, 21:12

Re: New Deity: Take 2

global thermonuclear war
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Sewers Scotsman

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Post Tuesday, 5th March 2013, 16:42

Re: New Deity: Take 2

COME AT ME BRO
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Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 5th March 2013, 17:29

Re: New Deity: Take 2

Tsijo, the god of mermaids. He could be like Beogh, except for mermaids. He would give you control of water and at higher piety, the ability to summon aquatic creatures. Hell, maybe even convert mermaids in the Shoals to your side. :D

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Post Tuesday, 5th March 2013, 17:46

Re: New Deity: Take 2

CykusX wrote:Tsijo, the god of mermaids. He could be like Beogh, except for mermaids. He would give you control of water and at higher piety, the ability to summon aquatic creatures. Hell, maybe even convert mermaids in the Shoals to your side. :D


Being exclusive to one species is Beogh's gimmick, though
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Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 5th March 2013, 17:49

Re: New Deity: Take 2

I kno :cry: but it would be nice to manipulate water and summon krakens.

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Post Tuesday, 5th March 2013, 17:55

Re: New Deity: Take 2

CykusX wrote:I kno :cry: but it would be nice to manipulate water and summon krakens.


fedhas lets you do the first
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Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 5th March 2013, 18:01

Re: New Deity: Take 2

Does Fedhas let you make water?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 5th March 2013, 18:03

Re: New Deity: Take 2

Fedhas
(note item 3, in particular)
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Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 5th March 2013, 18:11

Re: New Deity: Take 2

Oh yeah :oops: . But thats only one power....

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Tuesday, 5th March 2013, 18:12

Re: New Deity: Take 2

CykusX wrote:Oh yeah :oops: . But thats only one power....


there are only a few terrain modification powers, intentionally, because otherwise it just leads to tedious stuff
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Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 5th March 2013, 18:17

Re: New Deity: Take 2

Terrain modding wouldn't be tedious if done right.
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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 5th March 2013, 18:35

Re: New Deity: Take 2

It would, however, be insanely powerful -- creating barriers between you and dudes is really really strong. As far as I know there's only the few sources of water (fedhas, robe of clouds), the Tomb card, Imprison, and (kind of) summons that allow it.

I do like the idea of a Xom effect that would summon an allied kraken onto dry land. Or even a non-allied kraken.
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Tuesday, 5th March 2013, 19:52

Re: New Deity: Take 2

CykusX wrote:Terrain modding wouldn't be tedious if done right.


I don't mean the tedium of the interface. I mean that if you have a ton of options for terrain modification it encourages tedium because you can just spend all that time making the dungeon into the perfect Murder Zone. It may be significant that the only renewable sources of terrain modification that don't require a god to use regularly (the Dig spell and wand) are ones that remove obstacles rather than creating them.

I am totally in favor of Xom summoning krakens on dry land, though.

Halls Hopper

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 03:54

Re: New Deity: Take 2

New Diety of theatrics: Opratos His Flourish ability makes you look cool over 3.0 turns and does nothing useful.

New diety of tantrums: "You did not do what Tantrus wanted. You get picked up and thrown across the room. You slam into a wall. You die..."
It is all fun and games until Xom tosses you into the Abyss.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 07:21

Re: New Deity: Take 2

Confidence Interval wrote:COME AT ME BRO

Install Defcon and let's go.
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Sewers Scotsman

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 08:50

Re: New Deity: Take 2

Grimm wrote:
Confidence Interval wrote:COME AT ME BRO

Install Defcon and let's go.

I don't need me no defcon. Let's get ready to rumble!

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 14:37

Re: New Deity: Take 2

Yes, let's "swedge".
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Sewers Scotsman

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 14:38

Re: New Deity: Take 2

Now you're talking

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 14:44

Re: New Deity: Take 2

I sure am, ye "radge" "gadge".
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Sewers Scotsman

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 14:46

Re: New Deity: Take 2

I can see you have been studying hard.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 14:51

Re: New Deity: Take 2

Don't get all "biscuit-ersed" now.
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Sewers Scotsman

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 15:00

Re: New Deity: Take 2

Your coat's on a shoogly peg, pal.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 15:04

Re: New Deity: Take 2

Begorrah ye are right, me hearty.
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Sewers Scotsman

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 15:20

Re: New Deity: Take 2

I am intrigued by your mix of archaic British and Irish slang usages.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 21:35

Re: New Deity: Take 2

Be ye, i'faith, varlet?
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Sewers Scotsman

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Post Friday, 15th March 2013, 10:46

Re: New Deity: Take 2

Darn tootin.
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