DraconiaNs?

[Kersallus]

A few questions about the design of draconians.
I know a select few fantasy lore sources describe dragon as herbivores, but most depict them as carnivores. Draconians are humanoids, but why aren't they carnivores? Wouldn't carnivore 1 be apt to lore and dragon nature/history?

Also, why dont the breath attacks scale with level? Given they have default eating habits, the inability to wear most armours, slow leveling, and lackluster aptitudes, doesnt that translate into a rather poor character?

I enjoys the characters, and understand that some characters are harder than others, but this seems so for not much benefit.

[cerebovssquire]

Given they have default eating habits, the inability to wear most armours, slow leveling, and lackluster aptitudes, doesnt that translate into a rather poor character?

-Good aptitudes, especially Purple, and certain colours for certain characters. How are they lackluster? They are better than Human aptitudes for some colours, and roughly as good for all. This makes them adaptable.
-Breath weapon is sometimes really good - either it makes pre-Lair game really easy, or it remains useful until late (Pale).
-The AC is a huge plus. It's a large amount, it isn't a small amount on early levels like nagas have it, and it doesn't penalise spellcasting one bit. While you can't wear armour, a draconian with Dodging and spells will have better defences than most characters wearing a robe, casting spells and dodging.
-Unarmed auxiliary mutations are useful for some characters.
-High HP.

All in all, Draconians are one of the stronger species.

[Kate]

Also, why dont the breath attacks scale with level?

They do. The success rate, power and cooldown all improve.

[Kersallus]

Also, why dont the breath attacks scale with level?

They do. The success rate, power and cooldown all improve.

[Kate]

Also, why dont the breath attacks scale with level?

They do. The success rate, power and cooldown all improve.

?

[Davion Fuxa]

They do. The success rate, power and cooldown all improve.

?

Isn't it great to make a post that is entirely a quote of something else! It's like a Pile-On in Football, except your on the Internet.

[twelwe]

Kersallus wrote:

MarvinPA wrote:

Kersallus wrote:Also, why dont the breath attacks scale with level?


They do. The success rate, power and cooldown all improve.

For this message the author minmay has received thanks:
ebarrett

Rating: 3.03%

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Last edited by twelwe on Thursday, 1st November 2012, 02:55, edited 3 times in total.

[pratamawirya]

c-c-c-combo breaker

[Grimm]

Moved to CYC.

[TehDruid]

Moved to CYC.

This is seriously starting to become a cliché... Can't you start improvising a bit on the quote? I know you're very capable of doing that, Grimm.

[BlackSheep]

*ahem*
In Soviet Russia, CYC move to YOU!

[pratamawirya]

In Soviet Russia, Grimm is moved to CYC by YOU!

[nicolae]

in soviet russia, joke from the 80s overuses you

[Grimm]

In the 80s, joke about Soviet Russia elicit laugh from YOU!

[nicolae]

in soviet russia meme, jokes invert you!

[cerebovssquire]

"jokes"

[Grimm]

ooh, irony quotes. vicious.

[nicolae]

"jokes"

jokes"jokes

[MyOtheHedgeFox]

Attackon: Snake, be careful here!
Snake: What is it, Attackon?
Attackon: Snake, you cannot use your ranged weapons here! It is a stealth mission!
Snake: Why?
Attackon: The nearby chambers are chokeful of fire bats!
Snake: Fire bats... Faster than average, flame attack, high dodging...
Attackon: That's right, Snake: if you make any noise, they will fly out and alert everybody!
Snake: How should I proceed, then?
Attackon: You've got to resort to using CYC only!
Snake: CYC, huh?

[Grimm]

What on earth are you talking about.

[TehDruid]

What on earth are you talking about.

I don't even...

[pratamawirya]

In Soviet Russia, people ask the earth what on YOU is it talking about!

[MyOtheHedgeFox]

CQC -- Close Quarters Combat.

CYC -- Crazy Yuif's Chatter.

[Grimm]

Cyc is an artificial intelligence project that attempts to assemble a comprehensive ontology and knowledge base of everyday common sense knowledge, with the goal of enabling AI applications to perform human-like reasoning.

[cganya]

Actually, going back on topic...

Am I the only one who trout changing grey draconian a from melee powerhouses to sneaky stab era was... Strange? Was there some reasoning behind that? I would have assumed that role would be better for the pale draconian or maybe a new shadow draconian.

[Grimm]

No, I trout it was strange too. Many trout that. We were like, "Devs! What the hell are you troutan!"

[cganya]

I like to make high defence melee characters so I was pretty bummed when they took away mountain dwarves and beefy grey draconians. I know a good defence is not usually the ideal strategy in crawl but still. (I also think its strange that centaurs have a -3 aptitude to both dodging and armour, especially since they have a special type of armour that comes with an evasion penalty. I have never had a centaur where an early boarding even made sense to equip.)

With mountain dwarves, I can see why they removed them (too similar to minotaurs) but at the same time I dislike haveing to play a deep dwarf just to enjoy dwarven equipment to it's fullest. Orcs have a similar problem but at least the hill ork is more flexible in it's play style.

[Jabberwocky]

I salmon it was odd.

[Grimm]

I'm sure it was albacores the devs don't give a damn about players.

[tasonir]

I'm pretty sure it's a good idea to equip a barding as soon as you find it, unless it happens to be something unusual like negative enchantments.

[cganya]

I'm pretty sure it's a good idea to equip a barding as soon as you find it, unless it happens to be something unusual like negative enchantments.

why though? iirc a base barding supplies 4ac and -2 evp. if your going the dodge route for defence then the -2 evp doesn't help much at all and the +4 ac while better than +0 ac still isn't very much at all. (technically the lower your current value in a defence, the greater the effect there is of a static bonus. But come on, 4-6 ac isn't protecting you from anything). If your going the armour route then +4 ac does make up for the deformed body up until plate-mail (deformed body = half ac value of armour, splint-mail = 8 base ac) but the added -2 evp starts to cause some issues. in order for an evasion penalty value to not cause additional problems you need to have more than evp x 3 in strength. If you want to wear GDA and a barding (for only 10 combined ac. 12 / 2 + 4) you need to have 33 str ((9 + 2) x 3). so on-top of requiring 6 more str to get 3 less ac (other races get boots) with an extra -2 evp, centaurs get a -3 aptitude.

I honestly think centaurs should either get less of a penalty from armour or a better aptitude for their defences.

edit - I didn't think to ask: dare evasion penalties accumulative or do you use only the higher penalty? If it's the latter, than barding does make sense to use in any situation where a -2 evp doesn't really bother you.

[rebthor]

I'm pretty sure it's a good idea to equip a barding as soon as you find it, unless it happens to be something unusual like negative enchantments.

why though? iirc a base barding supplies 4ac and -2 evp. if your going the dodge route for defence then the -2 evp doesn't help much at all and the +4 ac while better than +0 ac still isn't very much at all. (technically the lower your current value in a defence, the greater the effect there is of a static bonus. But come on, 4-6 ac isn't protecting you from anything). If your going the armour route then +4 ac does make up for the deformed body up until plate-mail (deformed body = half ac value of armour, splint-mail = 8 base ac) but the added -2 evp starts to cause some issues. in order for an evasion penalty value to not cause additional problems you need to have more than evp x 3 in strength. If you want to wear GDA and a barding (for only 10 combined ac. 12 / 2 + 4) you need to have 33 str ((9 + 2) x 3). so on-top of requiring 6 more str to get 3 less ac (other races get boots) with an extra -2 evp, centaurs get a -3 aptitude.

I honestly think centaurs should either get less of a penalty from armour or a better aptitude for their defences.

edit - I didn't think to ask: dare evasion penalties accumulative or do you use only the higher penalty? If it's the latter, than barding does make sense to use in any situation where a -2 evp doesn't really bother you.

I don't think there's any -EV on a barding. It is the same as boots, just with more base AC.

[Jabberwocky]

According to learnDB there is no -ev on a barding.

[cganya]

I'm pretty sure it's a good idea to equip a barding as soon as you find it, unless it happens to be something unusual like negative enchantments.

why though? iirc a base barding supplies 4ac and -2 evp. if your going the dodge route for defence then the -2 evp doesn't help much at all and the +4 ac while better than +0 ac still isn't very much at all. (technically the lower your current value in a defence, the greater the effect there is of a static bonus. But come on, 4-6 ac isn't protecting you from anything). If your going the armour route then +4 ac does make up for the deformed body up until plate-mail (deformed body = half ac value of armour, splint-mail = 8 base ac) but the added -2 evp starts to cause some issues. in order for an evasion penalty value to not cause additional problems you need to have more than evp x 3 in strength. If you want to wear GDA and a barding (for only 10 combined ac. 12 / 2 + 4) you need to have 33 str ((9 + 2) x 3). so on-top of requiring 6 more str to get 3 less ac (other races get boots) with an extra -2 evp, centaurs get a -3 aptitude.

I honestly think centaurs should either get less of a penalty from armour or a better aptitude for their defences.

edit - I didn't think to ask: dare evasion penalties accumulative or do you use only the higher penalty? If it's the latter, than barding does make sense to use in any situation where a -2 evp doesn't really bother you.

I don't think there's any -EV on a barding. It is the same as boots, just with more base AC.

both naga and centaur barding have a -2 evp.

sources:
http://crawl.chaosforge.org/index.php?title=Armor wiki

knowing that the wiki isn't the greatest source of info i checked the knowledge bot. It doesn't specify anything about an evasion penalty. I'm at school so I cant go and find one on crawl right now. can anyone confirm?

[Grimm]

This may be the first time in Tavern history that a thread has actually been rerailed.

[cganya]

Bardings have an evasion penalty, but it's nothing whatsoever like the evasion penalty on body armour. It just reduces your EV by 2. No effect that I know of on spellcasting or melee accuracy. And 4 AC is certainly better than 2 EV.

ah thanks for the clarification. I think I'll try making an armoured centaur now.

This may be the first time in Tavern history that a thread has actually been rerailed.

*takes a bow*

[njvack]

If you're playing Ce, taking a bow is probably a really good move. Ranged is great with fast movement.

Wait, what?

[Jabberwocky]

Not a bow, a bow.

[rebthor]

Not a bow, a bow.

You bow?
Yew bow?
Yew bough?

[BlackSheep]

Ewe beau?

[JeffQyzt]

Eww...

[tasonir]

Someone with knowledge bot access should probably mention the -2EV in the barding entry, but as already stated, it doesn't hurt spellcasting and 4ac is worth more than 2ev. Especially since any armor skill will increase the AC and reduce the EV penalty at the same time. And then enchantments/resistances are just bonus stats.

I'm less sure if the -2ev reduces unarmed combat speed (-EV on body armor does), but it certainly doesn't affect any weapon skill.