I'm switching (sort of) to Angband + actually good Ideas(!)

[giygas]

Yeah, I know, it's funny. Usually it's people leaving nethack or angband because they found DCSS to be easier to play. I have, after much (10 minutes in the shower) deliberation, decided to return (sort of) to vanilla Angband. I hadn't played it once in the past 5 years, but after playing it for about two hours, I decided that it was, for me at least, a much better game than DCSS. I'm not trying to start a flame war, nor am I planning on quitting DCSS entirely, but I will make a few suggestions about what could be taken from Angband to make DCSS a much better game (not how to turn DCSS in Angband, just how to make DCSS a better game).

1. Remove Pan and the Abyss
Crawl's "anti-scumming" is a fallacy. Any Crawler will be quick to point out that Crawl does not encourage scumming for xp, money, or items, and in fact discourages it by having OOD monsters and dungeon floors that do not generate new items and a new map whenever you return to one of its levels. However, scumming is in fact encouraged, just later in the game. If you want to even think about cleaning a Zig, you need the best goodies you can find. Alright, Zigs aren't *required*. However, Angband handles this quite nicely: you have the *option* to prevent the game from giving you any way to go back to previous levels, so you are forced to go down (seriously!). Because of the finite amount of food in the dungeon, even if the player manages to farm xp from a breeder like a louse or a worm mass, they will die from starvation (and for any smartass who is going to cite the existence of the "satisfy hunger" spell, I want them to know that it is removed in the v4 trunk build). Even if you do scum in Angband, there is a reasonable amount of danger invloved, especially on the floors with all the good exp/items. The scumming of Pan goes against the design philosophy anyway, so both Pan and the Abyss should be removed or reworked.

2. Remove Hunger or make it more important
Angband has a hunger system, but the shops trivialize it, as there is an infinite supply from the shops on the surface (this does not contradict some of the things I said in #1). Crawl's hunger system is broken, as I'm sure many will agree. Either hunger must happen much faster, or the hunger system should be removed entirely (as is sort of done in Angband), as currently the system is rather irritating. There is almost no way for an experienced player (or an inexperienced player that knows that it is possible to starve) to starve, unless they make an unplanned trip to the abyss (which will kill you anyway) or are forced by enemies into a labyrinth (the enemies will be there when you leave, so it's kind of pointless). I feel that either the removal or increase in speed of the hunger system would be an improvement, but because I dislike scum(ming), I would prefer the latter

3. Optional levels of Difficulty
I don't believe the game should be made easier, but it should be able to, if the player so desires, make it harder with a single option change. I beat DCSS for the first time less than half a year ago after I started playing a year and a half ago. I have beaten it nine times since, managing to get a three game streak, beating each game with different class/species combinations. There, in my opinion, comes a point with DCSS where you just have it (cough, cough, hyperbolic and cerebovsquire and the others who's names I can't remember). I'm not that level of good, but I've won 10 out of the last hundred something games I've played, which isn't a half bad win ratio. I feel that people who want a little of a (or a lot of a) extra challenge should be able to get it if they want, and without having to hassle with recompilations or changing configuration files.





I do not plan on quitting DCSS, or leaving this forum; on the contrary, I plan on staying on this forum, as it has one of the liveliest forum communities of any roguelike. I mean these suggestions quite seriously, but I think I'm crazy to believe that anybody will do anything with them. But yes, I do believe that they would make the game better.

[JeffQyzt]

Not to dissuade you from trying Angband again, but have you tried Sil?

http://www.amirrorclear.net/flowers/game/sil/

• No scumming - scumming pretty much eliminated by the depth forcing feature
• Hunger more pertinent - check
• Levels of difficulty - implemented via different races being easier/harder

At any rate, it's a quick game, so well worth a try.

[cerebovssquire]

just play doomrl

[giygas]

1. trying to scum pan/abyss is actually never useful ever, some people will tell you it is

It's only useful, imo, if you are trying to clear a zig but have had horrible item drops. And the abyss isn't worth it at all really, just pan.

Not to dissuade you from trying Angband again, but have you tried Sil?

I'll try it. I'm a bit put off by the lack of magic... but I'll try it. I have like Angband variants before (ToME2, Zangband, Sangband), but they tend to focus too much on one main idea or class or magic or something, and be a bit unbalanced because of that. However, Sil does look worth trying at least. I'll post what think of it in a couple of hours.

just play doomrl

Hahahahahahaha...
You serious?
(I hate hate hate doomrl)

[pratamawirya]

What I don't understand is this: Why would you see scumming to clear an optional area as a proof that the game is flawed?

[JeffQyzt]

have you tried Sil?

I'm a bit put off by the lack of magic

Well, it's a lot more heavily Tolkien flavored than vanilla Angband (that's rather the point of it), so the magic is more "inherent"; songs, however, are more or less what you'd think of as magic spells, and voice is approximately equivalent to mana. If you like playing "blaster" types, though, it's probably not your game.

[TehDruid]

You used an exclamation mark instead of a plethora of question marks.

[giygas]

have you tried Sil?

I'm a bit put off by the lack of magic

Well, it's a lot more heavily Tolkien flavored than vanilla Angband (that's rather the point of it), so the magic is more "inherent"; songs, however, are more or less what you'd think of as magic spells, and voice is approximately equivalent to mana. If you like playing "blaster" types, though, it's probably not your game.

I've played it, and it's quite good. I still can sort of "blast" with ranged weapons, because there's so much ammunition lying around, and the way the game is set up makes it easy to be very proficient at singing and all types of combat. The only thing that irritates me is that abilities and skills require xp from the same pool. I like how the innards of the game are exposed, moreso than Angband. And the monster AI is incredibly irritating (good).

[giygas]

Okay, just kidding.

I hate Sil.

It's horribly biased towards the monsters, there is no real way to improve your character very much, and scumming is necessary. Sure, the up stairs don't always lead up, but they don't always lead down either, so it is almost completely necessary to repeat a level as many times as you can so you can improve your character by the little bit you can. There are virtually no good drops either, even with scumming, so you have to invest an inane amount of experience into the crafting skill and abilities instead of your melee, ranged, and dodging skills. It quickly becomes harder than IVAN if you don't scum scum scum. (I know, I've beaten it - it was a challenge I received from one of my friends. He foolishly bet 50 dollars against me.) That said, the game doesn't always let you scum a level over and over; whether or not you can repeat a level is a matter of luck. There are things in that are quite awesome, and it's a pity that they are in a game so unbalanced and based on luck more than skill.

[Jabberwocky]

What bug did you exploit?

[giygas]

What bug did you exploit?

Winning IVAN is not really a bug. I was just extremely lucky with the dice rolls, and I played extremely cautiously. EXTREMELY cautiously. I had the standard ending where you kill Elpuri and give the head to Petrus.

[JeffQyzt]

Okay, just kidding.

I hate Sil.

It's horribly biased towards the monsters, there is no real way to improve your character very much, and scumming is necessary. Sure, the up stairs don't always lead up, but they don't always lead down either, so it is almost completely necessary to repeat a level as many times as you can so you can improve your character by the little bit you can. There are virtually no good drops either, even with scumming, so you have to invest an inane amount of experience into the crafting skill and abilities instead of your melee, ranged, and dodging skills. It quickly becomes harder than IVAN if you don't scum scum scum. (I know, I've beaten it - it was a challenge I received from one of my friends. He foolishly bet 50 dollars against me.) That said, the game doesn't always let you scum a level over and over; whether or not you can repeat a level is a matter of luck. There are things in that are quite awesome, and it's a pity that they are in a game so unbalanced and based on luck more than skill.

Sorry to hear that it didn't work out (there's some roguelike analogy with dating to be made here, I'm sure...) I think "forcing through" to a win would probably not be optimal for prolonging enjoyment, but to each their own...

In case anyone else reads this thread, though:

I do agree that it's a lot more luck based than e.g. Crawl, but I wouldn't necessarily agree with your premises that you need to need to repeat all the levels as long as it lets you, that there are no good drops, and that crafting is necessary. While high level crafting is quite viable, you can definitely do without (and many do, though a low to moderate amount of crafting can definitely help get you through the midgame easier, e.g. if you never find a shovel.) You probably do need to pick some abilities to develop, though you can focus strongly (and some have won without them as a challenge condition.) Stealth/Song builds tend to be much less equipment dependent than Melee/Range focused builds, too.

I think the experience that you're describing is what I did at first, which is try to stay at the minimum depth available for as long as possible. It can be very worthwhile to instead dive down rapidly, so that you get to where decent equipment drops start; if you can manage to survive the first few encounters, you'll quickly bring your experience up to what it would have been in a much longer descent "hanging back", and you'll be rewarded with better loot that will make surviving even deeper much easier. There are a few "depth plateaus", e.g. when dragons first appear and generally require some form of fire resist; I'd recommend diving to just above those, and then diving as far as comfortable when you've acquired whatever you need to get past those type of opponents.

The other big non-obvious thing (to me, anyway) is the impact of light radius on game-play. Having a big strong light radius will make things go much more smoothly (even if you're stealth based, rather counter-intuitively.)

[giygas]

Okay, just kidding.

I hate Sil.

It's horribly biased towards the monsters, there is no real way to improve your character very much, and scumming is necessary. Sure, the up stairs don't always lead up, but they don't always lead down either, so it is almost completely necessary to repeat a level as many times as you can so you can improve your character by the little bit you can. There are virtually no good drops either, even with scumming, so you have to invest an inane amount of experience into the crafting skill and abilities instead of your melee, ranged, and dodging skills. It quickly becomes harder than IVAN if you don't scum scum scum. (I know, I've beaten it - it was a challenge I received from one of my friends. He foolishly bet 50 dollars against me.) That said, the game doesn't always let you scum a level over and over; whether or not you can repeat a level is a matter of luck. There are things in that are quite awesome, and it's a pity that they are in a game so unbalanced and based on luck more than skill.

Sorry to hear that it didn't work out (there's some roguelike analogy with dating to be made here, I'm sure...) I think "forcing through" to a win would probably not be optimal for prolonging enjoyment, but to each their own...

In case anyone else reads this thread, though:

I do agree that it's a lot more luck based than e.g. Crawl, but I wouldn't necessarily agree with your premises that you need to need to repeat all the levels as long as it lets you, that there are no good drops, and that crafting is necessary. While high level crafting is quite viable, you can definitely do without (and many do, though a low to moderate amount of crafting can definitely help get you through the midgame easier, e.g. if you never find a shovel.) You probably do need to pick some abilities to develop, though you can focus strongly (and some have won without them as a challenge condition.) Stealth/Song builds tend to be much less equipment dependent than Melee/Range focused builds, too.

I think the experience that you're describing is what I did at first, which is try to stay at the minimum depth available for as long as possible. It can be very worthwhile to instead dive down rapidly, so that you get to where decent equipment drops start; if you can manage to survive the first few encounters, you'll quickly bring your experience up to what it would have been in a much longer descent "hanging back", and you'll be rewarded with better loot that will make surviving even deeper much easier. There are a few "depth plateaus", e.g. when dragons first appear and generally require some form of fire resist; I'd recommend diving to just above those, and then diving as far as comfortable when you've acquired whatever you need to get past those type of opponents.

The other big non-obvious thing (to me, anyway) is the impact of light radius on game-play. Having a big strong light radius will make things go much more smoothly (even if you're stealth based, rather counter-intuitively.)

Huh. I tried diving, and was slain rather rapidly by a mob of Easterlings. I'll try a diving/stealth build just for the heck of it then.

[Styro]

1. Remove Pan and the Abyss
2. Remove Hunger or make it more important
3. Optional levels of Difficulty

1. I like the idea of Pan and Abyss but the implementation needs to be tweaked. It just ends up being a boring waste of time to get all the runes.

For Pan I think it might be better to just have a Vestibule-type level with portals to each of the Pan Lords' lairs. This removes the tedium, but you still get the interesting fights. Part of the challenge of Pan also comes from having to be prepared for anything. You could replicate this by making the portal to the Pan Vestibule be a one time only portal. Once you go back to the dungeon you cannot return. That way characters would need to bring all their needed equipment into the vestibule with them.

Abyss is just annoying. It is mildly entertaining occasionally when sent there early to see if I can survive long enough to find a way out. But usually it is either a death sentence because you are too weak or just a waste of time because you are strong enough to survive.

2. I don't think speeding up the food clock will add anything to the game except more tedium. Currently it is as if the players need to push the Food button every 100 turns. Requiring them to push it every 50 turns would be awful. I agree that about the only time the food clock creates tension is when you accidentally get caught somewhere like abyss or the labyrinth when you aren't carrying much food, but so what? Probably the best solution if a change is needed would be to just remove the food clock entirely. But that would require a lot of work for little gain IMO.

3. This one I completely agree with. I coded a "Casual" mode myself in about an hour which gave the player +1 to all skills, +10% HP, and +10% MP. It would be simple to add an option in one of the settings files to allow up to +/-3 or +/-5 so players could make the game as easy or difficult as they choose. Default would of course be 0.

The only argument against this sort of thing I see from people is "use wizard mode". But why not take a couple hours to code something that would increase the enjoyment and options for players? The setting could show in the High Score list, or each setting could have a separate HS list (for those that care about that sort of thing) and only the 0 setting would be allowed for tournaments - unless someone wanted to run a -5 tournament.

[cerebovssquire]

You also realise that this would upsurp the highscore system or at least require a lot more than two hours' of planning work to actually rebalance it somehow?

[Styro]

Well if the high scores were separate (like Sprint) then it wouldn't matter. Or it could just be a local-only option so who cares if you "ruin" your own high score list?

And balancing wouldn't be necessary - it would just be easier or harder than it is currently, which would be the point. Sure it could take a lot of time to balance if you were trying to design specific challenge modes (like Sprint), but that is not what we are talking about. That is why I think it would be a great bang-for-your-buck type of change. A few hours of code for some basic, no-frills difficulty settings.

[cerebovssquire]

"it" in that sentence refers to the highscore system... obviously they aren't supposed to be equally easy.
No, I don't want 5 seperate highscore leagues for online crawl or a lot of additional options for local players. These don't currently exist as far as I know (with the exception of wizard mode, which I actually find quite strange; why couldn't a non-scored wizard mode be online? too hard for the servers?) and I think that is a good thing.
Perhaps the benefits of this might not take a lot of work as you say, but the benefits are not worth the disadvantages pointed out above.

[inkydood]

There are surely more elegant solutions to remove scumming (and it's already undesirable for the most part) than deleting entire branches. As branches of infinite width (Abyss) and infinite depth (Pan), they're inherently unique (and therefore places to implement ideas that might not work elsewhere), to say nothing of other distinctive features that make them even more challenging. In other words, they are good ideas, have potential to improve, and should stay.

Food in Crawl seems to get a lot of flak, but between sacrifices, Gourmand, and Necromancy in general, players have (comparatively) interesting, albeit situational options with how to use corpses. Oh, and toadstools from corpses-- YASD once because one was blocking my last-ditch escape path in a corridor. Not something you'd normally think about (or let happen, heh... ) but anyway, improving an existing element is better than removing it. Honestly, if the only change to food/hunger was proportionally reducing both, I'd be pretty happy.

Insofar as increasing difficulty goes, there are some fairly undesirable race/background/religion combinations out there-- have you tried any?

[inkydood]

As for having multiple difficulties, imagine how this would dilute the information available to players: general advice would have to be re-tailored for the specific version of Crawl you're playing. In addition, players moving up to higher difficulty settings would basically have to relearn the game, and worse, undo bad habits formed by a more forgiving game. Imagine: "I'm used to tabbing through Zot, and now I can't even reach Lair, what's the deal?!?" all day err day

[dpeg]

minmay: Absolutely valid point.

Back when contemplating Fedhas, I suggested toadstools occasionally grown spontaneously on corpses, so that every players has seen them before (makes it easier to understand Fedhas once you take on the god). And I liked the additional "dungeon is more alive" flavour.

Of course, there's a solution to this, apart from just removing the feature. Do you think it's important enough to make toadstools shoot from the place of death, corpse or not?

[giygas]

3. This one I completely agree with. I coded a "Casual" mode myself in about an hour which gave the player +1 to all skills, +10% HP, and +10% MP. It would be simple to add an option in one of the settings files to allow up to +/-3 or +/-5 so players could make the game as easy or difficult as they choose. Default would of course be 0.

This isn't quite what I meant. There shouldn't be an easier mode in my opinion, but there should be a much more brutal mode. A mode that you would automatically be granted bragging rights if you managed to beat.

No, I don't want 5 seperate highscore leagues for online crawl or a lot of additional options for local players..

Neither do I. I want 2 seperate highscore leagues. And I don't want a lot of options either "Challenge Mode" or whatever would be hidden, not even mentioned until the game is beaten once in normal mode. It wouldn't be a config file change either, it would be simpler than that: like challenge mode listed on the main menu. Also, it would be fun to see some [YACMVP] (but very few of course!)