Mr. Neverwin

[LordKristopf]

So, let’s just pretend for a sec that you’re an old guy who’s been playing Dungeon Crawl since the late 90’s, back when it felt like you were the only one who even knew what Crawl was, let alone actually played it. Many years pass; you continue to download the latest versions with some frequency and eventually kill off many thousands of characters...

Now it’s 2012 and, rather embarrassingly, you’ve NEVER won the game. In fact, you’ve never even come close. Worse yet, in this future world, Dungeon Crawl has a fan base the size of which you couldn’t have even pictured back then and it seems that everyone and their mother has surfaced with the orb at least once, often with species/class combos you never dreamt viable (at least back in Linley’s version you could console yourself that you literally weren’t allowed to play them ).

I guess my question is, am I, er, I mean would this sad individual be fairly classified as Dungeon Crawl retarded? If there’s any mitigating factor to consider, his play style would be the absolute antithesis of “power-gaming”, one who abhors spoilers and has at least tried, up until very recently, to learn all things through the oft-lethal methodology of trial-and-error. What say you?

[mageykun]

Depending on your rate of play, and how well the trial and error is conducted, I could easily see someone going that long without making an un-spoiled win.

Especially since, if you're slow enough, the game changes faster than you can learn the changes via trial and error (so worst case, you're using obsolete or incorrect infromation / tactics). And there are certain best practices that make sense once you learn them, but might be difficult or unintuitive to discover/invent completely by yourself. Many mechanics and formula encourage certain behavior, but again, you'd be hard pressed to figure them all out without knowing the formulas.

[pratamawirya]

I'm having a hard time taking this topic seriously. Oh wait...

[giygas]

never even come close

I can't see how anyone could play that long without even coming close. Not even possible.

Depending on your rate of play

Yes. Sure. I agree with this. As long as he didn't play more than once every 4 years, this is actually quite feasible.

[Konebred]

This is weird, I was wondering earlier today if there was anyone who had never won the game since it has been out. I am a bit OCD with stuff like this. If I know it is winnable I will play the shit out of it until I do win. I was so relieved after my first 3 runer I stopped playing for about a month. Then it started bugging me about not having a 15 runer. Once I got that I figure I will win at least a 3 runer with every god, then a 15 with every race after that. Maybe try some speed runs when I get a bit more comfortable with playing optimally (something I do not do).

[LordKristopf]

In response to giygas, occassional runes have been earned but the realm of Zot exists only as a whispered legend. While there might have been some stretches of time where few are almost no games are played, these are roughly proportional to periods where many, MANY characters are all eventually slaughtered. I can accept and appreciate your implied vote for Dungeon Crawl learning-disabled however.

Mageykun you bring up an intriguing point, one I'd never considered. It does seem like faithfully updating game versions leads to a certain feeling like everything's in a semi-state of flux. I say this in most due respect to the great innovations of the developers however.

[mad]

I must say I can relate - I certainly haven't been playing Crawl since the 90s by any stretch, but I've been playing off and on since mid-2007 and I only won for the first time a few weeks ago (MiDK of Zin, for what it's worth). I'm somewhat convinced the win was a fluke, but here's a couple of things that I've noticed about the crawl experience as they pertain to long-time players who just can't bring out a win:

• I never felt like I was getting better, but it turns out I actually was. I remember the days when I first started playing - I used to never get my Draconians to level 7 to find out what colour they were, much to my dissapointment. Now, if I get a character to level 2 or 3, it will probably reach at least level 8. I used to be excited about getting far enough for the temple; now I get to it almost every game.
  
• The hard part is the early/midgame. My top ten high scores list (on my other computer, can't confirm it) shows tons of characters who died about level 13 or 14, and I have about 4 characters who went over level 16, one of which won the game.
  
• I often play crawl whilst listening to radio shows or podcasts. This is probably the reason I died the most; I wasn't fully paying attention. You need to focus on crawl. Something I've started doing is hopping on skype with a friend and we both play crawl and narrate our games. The fact that he's "watching" me makes me more reluctant to take risks.
  
• Use your consumables. Use them often. That's what they're for.
  
• Wuss out of fights. LOTS. Be careful of uniques.

tl;dr of those points: you probably are improving, but slowly; once you get to a certain point dying is a lot harder; pay attention; use your items; and RUNNNNN!!!

[giygas]

occassional runes have been earned but the realm of Zot exists only as a whispered legend

This seems possible, because this was me (for only a year, but I played often)

[Grimm]

I've played on and off for several years and have never won, and don't intend to.

[pratamawirya]

I've played on and off for several years and have never won, and don't intend to.

Purposely not trying to win is... deep.

[Grimm]

I'm not purposely not winning, I'm purposely playing in a very non-optimal style, and I don't feel like changing in order to win. Actually I'm not playing at all now that Crawl mysteriously doesn't run on my new setup.

[pratamawirya]

Well, I didn't say "not winning", I said "not trying to win".

[LordKristopf]

It does sort of make one wonder what exactly the philosophical approach to crawl should be or is. Should life solely revolve around finding the orb, or should one just be content to let it end in hellfire?

[cursednobleman]

It does sort of make one wonder what exactly the philosophical approach to crawl should be or is. Should life solely revolve around finding the orb, or should one just be content to let it end in hellfire?

That sir, is a quote.

[Herode2]

Finding the Orb is one thing. Another is to put it in your pocket and bring it up to sunlight. Why the hell any rational character would want to do that ?

[Confidence Interval]

you’re an old guy who’s been playing Dungeon Crawl since the late 90’s

You're not alone.

I'm an old guy who's been playing Crawl for a while, though not that long. It took me around 3000 games to get a win. I posted to this effect at one stage, and it wasn't til some time after that that I eventually won. That's the only time I've ever won, though - and unlike Grimm I do actually aspire to win.

I'd give you some advice but my level of skill suggests I'm not well placed to do so - all I can offer is empathy (and sympathy), and do so freely.

[LordKristopf]

Thanks Confidence Interval.

I can readily accept the possibility of being on a tail of the bell-curve regarding player skill, I just wasn’t sure if the above story, which is as a whole obviously an anomaly, might contain some fail themes that were a bit more ubiquitous. It’s bittersweet to hear tales similar…

One thing it’s made me wonder lately; in the philosophy section it mentions that beating the game without using spoilers is entirely possible (if I remember the wording correctly). I start wonder if this is true for the ‘average’ player. Obviously many, if not most of the guys here are pretty elite and can beat the game blindfolded, but it also seems that they know the minutia of game mechanics. I’m completely sure what counts as a spoiler however and what doesn’t…

[eeviac]

I've played on and off for several years and have never won, and don't intend to.

Really? I'd always assumed you were this guy.

[Confidence Interval]

I've played on and off for several years and have never won, and don't intend to.

Really? I'd always assumed you were this guy.

I believe that is some other smelly drunken dwarf.

it mentions that beating the game without using spoilers is entirely possible... I... wonder if this is true for the ‘average’ player

"Possible" covers a wide range of probabilities from "almost certain" to "really very unlikely but still, in principle, possible". I would say that the possibility here tends towards the latter end of that distribution. As to the "average player", I'm feeling too lazy to paste all the scores into a stats package but a quick scan for the median suggests those players have a highest-ever XL of around 8 to 12, suggesting the "average" is none too high. There is a massive skew in that distribution, which looks like an exaggerated power curve: lots and lots of poor to mediocre players and a small number of overachieving ones.

[Grimm]

I've played on and off for several years and have never won, and don't intend to.

Really? I'd always assumed you were this guy.

No that's someone else. I picked my name without ever having looked at online.

[LordKristopf]

Max XL 8-12? Really? For me the greatest difficulty comes at, say, XL 18+, because I so rarely get to see those parts of the dungeon or encounter the uniques at those levels. Obviously you err on the side of run but at some point you have to try to tackle things. Without hunting down spoilers most lessons tend to come only once and painfully so.

Point in case, I had a demonspawn melee guy with fantastic mutations who got my hopes up. He discovered a “killer klown”. I thought, “How tough could one single clown be?”. I’ve been sleeping with the lights on ever since.

That was versions ago. If I run into something like that now I have no idea if it’s been buffed, nerfed, or uses completely different tactics/abilities...

[Confidence Interval]

“How tough could one single clown be?”

Looks pretty tough to me:


The "average" thing is tricky because there are a very large number of players who play one or a small number of games and never play again, which obviously drops the mean performance down a lot.

Like you, I very often get killed at XLs in the teens: XL15 is more likely than me than XL18 but like you it's often because I underestimate monsters I've seldom or never seen. It's even worse, sometimes, if I've beaten them once or twice: "Mara? I beat him last time, he was easy!" Dying in branch ends is also a particular favourite of mine, even though they're a well recognised idiot trap.

[Grimm]

Even though?

[Confidence Interval]

Even though?

Yes. The fact that they are a recognised idiot trap might give an idiot like me the notion of staying clear but it does not. Thus idiocy.

[Grimm]

So they're DOUBLE idiot traps. Fiendishly clever.

[Confidence Interval]

I idiotically reflect on my idiotic reflection on my idiocy. Make that triple, with scope for further extension.

[Grimm]

It's like a wilderness of funhouse mirrors.

[Confidence Interval]

It's like a wilderness of funhouse mirrors.

For some reason this makes me think of Steppenwolf.

[LordKristopf]

That's ostensibly why the branch ends contain so much potential loot and XP, no? Why else would anyone visit Elf:5 or go curtsy before the Royal Jelly? Always so dangerously tempting...

If you don't mind, would you be willing to share your opinion on the relative importance of using the auto-search function during play? It was something that didn't exist in Linley's version (and at least a couple after that I believe) so I'm in the long-established habit of doing everything manually. Is this a habit that one simply has to break to keep up with the times or is it still viable to completely disregard it?

[dpeg]

LordKristof: Hey, an old-timer!

(I have played the classical DC 4b26 and actually won once; then DCSS appeared... so not as long around as you.)

Yes, the game can be won unspoiled. For the attempt that I know well, the player focused on winning, by deliberately choosing to play TrBe only. His assumption was that this combination is well winnable (it is) and by choosing it, the intricacies of magic, religion (Trog is easy to use) and weapons are all avoided.

I know the feeling that the late mid-game (after clearing the Lair branches, say) is actually harder than the early game, because I am not familiar enough with all the late monsters. I am not properly unspoiled, but I never bothered to look up monster stats, for example, unless when making vaults.

What you can do: are you aware that examining monsters (xv) gives a lot more information than it used to? The descriptions have been updated as well and may actually be useful at times. Also, it may be worth to play a bit of Zot Sprint. That's a *quick* way to get to know some late game monsters.

We ran a survey when 0.5 came out, and another one is running right now (http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/survey -- please take part if you haven't yet). Results for the old one are: http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/2009- ... ey-results
You will be relieved to hear that you are not alone. There were a number of players who have been around since ancient versions and who never won. (Realizing this made us put more emphasis on new stuff for the early/mid game.)

[LordKristopf]

Well met dpeg. That’s interesting to hear my friend. I never thought of specializing one race/class until perfection. It’s probably a good idea in the pursuit of winning although I’m not sure I’d have the emotional wherewithal to do it. Right after I kill off a relatively high level race/class type I’m usually only inspired to play the exact opposite! Such variety is truly the wonderful spice of dungeon crawl.

I have noticed and try to utilize the new info on the monster examining function. I’m not sure I fully trust its judgment over my own yet but with time I certainly may come to...

I’ve also happy taken the survey. It’s great to see that player input evidently holds some weight with the developers.

Did you, or do you, find it hard to evolve with the ever advancing versions or have you simply gotten more skilled with time (in spite of)?

[dpeg]

LordKristof: I play Crawl in spikes (many games in a short time, then nothing for a while). I also follow only loosely these days (unless it's about gods, then I follow very closely). This means that new content gets me by surprise. I notice this most with new uniques. Whenever I see a unique unknown to me, I tremble with fear. Since I don't look up descriptions, I do the xv, then retreat, bring everything I have and give it a go.

Other new stuff that makes me stop in my tracks is branch endings.