Weaponmastery: Post this on the wiki?

[eharper256]

Just had a rather interesting idea last night about how to implement differences to melee combat (which I'm always whining about ). This integrates alot of the changes and requirements listed in the Combat Maneuvers page etc.

However, since I've posted before on the wiki Crusader/Skald spell ideas etc. and got no response at all in the past, I figured I'd first post it here, make sure I'm on the right track or whether wiki editing is just going to waste my time. Also, I don't think I'm permitted to make a new category but I'm concerned that it'll just clog up the current Combat Maneuvers page and make it a big mess since its effectively a new interpretation based on the material already there.

Combat Weaponmastery
Related articles:
https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... pon_reform
https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... t:stabbing

What it does?
All weapons have positive passive abilities to make melee combat more varied. All are based on 1 skill.

The Benefits:
A) All bonuses are passive and beneficial {as dpeg requires}.
B) All bonuses integrated into a single skill. This is either 1 new skill, Weaponmaster, or they can theoretically be merged into Fighting. This makes things more newbie friendly and means you can still get benefits regardless of what the dungeon throws at you.
C) However, option (Mix with Weapon Skill Level) below gives you the ability to tie it to weaponskills as well.
D) Helps differenciate weapon types. Proposes 1 new {optional} variable for weapons in this case: Finesse. Each weapon-type has access to two abilities.
E) Gives diversity, but isn't outlandish, keeping with how Crawl already sees melee combat.

The Abilities:
All of these proposals can be mixed and matched. Feel free to reject individual elements. Some skills have multiple choices [type A or type B] precisely for this purpose.

Sneak Attacks (aka. Stabbing)
Applies to Short Blades, Club {Blackjack}. At Weaponmaster Skill 7, now also applies to Heavy Blade. At Weaponmaster Skill 15, now also applies to Hammer and Mace weapons {NOT FLAILS/WHIPS}
Obviously, extra damage, as it has always been, though perhaps toned down (don't know what its currently like in Trunk~ still playing 0.8).
Perhaps a (Weaponmaster)% chance of paralysing the foe for a single turn after attacking it whilst it was unaware.

Cleaving
Applies to Heavy Blades, Axes
TYPE A) (Weaponmaster x2)% chance to deal d[Weaponmaster] extra damage to an adjacent enemy after hitting (or missing) the first target.
TYPE B) On death of foe via relevant weapon, excess damage that took it into Negative figures is instead applied to adjacent foe with bonus d[Weaponmaster] damage added on top.

Hewing
Applies to Axes, Non-Stabbing Polearms
TYPE A) (Weaponmaster)% chance to deal d[Weaponmaster] extra damage on a basic hit. Boring but effective.
TYPE B) (Weaponmaster)% chance to inflict some kind of Bleed status. Works exactly like Poison, but RPois has no effect on it and it has a much shorter duration (d9 +1 turns).

Slamming
Applies to Hammers, ~Possibly~ Flails & Whips, ~Possibly~ Shields
This is invoked in the same way as reaching, making it the only "active" type ability added.
When it is invoked, though, there is a (Weaponmaster x 2)% chance of knocking back the selected target d2 spaces as well as {75% of standard damage, which always hits}

Skewering
Applies to Spears, ~Possibly~ Light Blades
(Weaponmaster)% chance to inflict the new Constrict status that is supposed to be in 0.10

Reaching
Applies to Spears, Polearms, Flails and Whips
This is already implemented in 0.10 if I'm not mistaken. I just propose including Flails and Whips to those that automatically have Reach, and including:
(Weaponmaster x 2)% chance of hitting the target in the way of your reach as well. (i.e. hitting two targets on a line)

Flurrying
Applies to Unarmed, Light Blades
(Weaponmaster / 2)% chance to give self Speed brand for d3 turns if the weapon has no ego {~possibly~ without the reduction in damage}

Parrying
Applies to Shields {Possibly ONLY Buckler}, ~Possibly~ Off-hand light blade
I know, no dual wield. And there isn't. Just a blade that acts like a shield (quite legitimate in real combat). Anyway;
Bonus to SH == (Weaponmaster / 2)

Riposte
Applies to Light Blades
After SH block success, gives (Weaponmaster)% chance to deal d[Weaponmaster] extra damage.
Specifically, ideal for a Rapier/Epee/Foil if such a weapon was added. Again, Parry with Buckler + use Stabby implement is a legit combat style and the namesake of swashbuckling.

Pursuit
Applies to all (?)
When a foe flees from you and was in melee before, gives a (Weaponmaster)% chance of dealing d[Weaponmaster / 2] damage before they escape.

Weapon Finesse (Optional)
Quite simple, this attribute. Its a value from -2 to +2, and this value is multiplied by 10, then added to the (Weaponmaster)%, giving a range from -20 to +20% chance of effects. So high Finesse weapons have a better chance of triggering their related benefit. This could allow for Daggers that exceptionally good for stabbing (aka. a Baselard, Poiniard) but have otherwise lower stats. Smaller spears have less chance of activiting the Reach Benefit. A Handaxe has less chance of hewing and cleaving. A swift blade is low finesse because its very fast.

Also, the Vorpal brand, to make it more respected among the other egos, can offer a 12.5% boost to the weapons base effects chance, identical to its current damage boost.

Mix with Weapon Skill Level (Optional)
Again, quite simple, whenever the above chance states (Weaponmaster)% chance or d[Weaponmaster] damage, make that equation into (Weaponmaster + Relevant Weapon Skill / 2).
I.e. Using a Spear, has Polearms 8 and Weaponmaster 10 = Has a (18 / 2 = 9)% chance of Skewering or activating the bonus effect of Reaching.
Therefore, activating effects relies both on this skill AND the innate skill with the weapon.

Using this idea makes it more tenable to use plain old Fighting in the place of Weaponmaster, if that is required.

Too many abilities? (Optional)
If its not wanted for a weapon to check for two different abilities each attack, just select one of them. This could be player choice so people can have their preferences, but if it is, a tiny description of what each does should be provided, obviously.

-------------------
Anyway, please post your comments, notes, own ideas, and outright disgust. If you like, use this thread in a similar way to the Generic Brainstorming thread once it has served its time.

EDIT: Slightly revised to make it make more sense if you've not read some of the primer!

[The Mantis]

Please rewrite this so that it shows required links to understand it on the top and removes personal comments, thanks.

Edit: The way that it's expressed on the wiki is a bit simpler. So, every weapon gets a set of abilities.

I like the idea of a weapon getting one ability for each stat. If there was an ability which gave you a better chance to get these abilities, that would be a shocker if they were great, or ridiculous if they were bad. Averaging it out makes an ability that is needed to boost any weapon skill. I think you underestimate just how valuable skill training is.

Edit 2:

At the same point, it appears that you have underestimated what you've suggested. Your suggestion for stabbing is a 27% chance, at maximum, of doing 1100% bonus damage, i.e. +847% average, a hit, for two hits. As a dagger deals base 34 with maximum pre-modifier bonus, it does well over 500 damage under your proposal. I can definitely imagine a build that uses this. In fact, that's not that bad; it's just that it requires training this one skill, which is -also- useful for other abilities.

Cleaving
Applies to Heavy Blades, Axes
TYPE A) (Weaponmaster x2)% chance to deal d[Weaponmaster] extra damage to an adjacent enemy after hitting (or missing) the first target.
TYPE B) On death of foe via relevant weapon, excess damage that took it into Negative figures is instead applied to adjacent foe with bonus d[Weaponmaster] damage added on top.

Golly. A 54 percent chance of d27 bonus damage after hitting OR missing the first target? Not only that, but if I kill it I get NOT ONLY any damage that overkilled my foe but also another d27...

What I think I will do is run around aimlessly with a war axe of speed and like 6 skill until I get two enemies and kill one with my 14 bonus slaying. Also, I get an average of 14 damage on top of my killing blow onto the enemy I'm tanking hits from.

Hewing
Applies to Axes, Non-Stabbing Polearms
TYPE A) (Weaponmaster)% chance to deal d[Weaponmaster] extra damage on a basic hit. Boring but effective.
TYPE B) (Weaponmaster)% chance to inflict some kind of Bleed status. Works exactly like Poison, but RPois has no effect on it and it has a much shorter duration (d9 +1 turns).

Brutal. Bleed does percentage damage (fractional by maxhp), so d9+1 turns of bleed is like '-2% mhp damage'. To bring this up to the gargantuan standards of the other two, I suggest exactly the same, but random2(Weaponmasterx3)+Weaponmaster duration, and it stacks. That way you eventually have enough bleeding that it does something.

Slamming
Applies to Hammers, ~Possibly~ Flails & Whips, ~Possibly~ Shields
This is invoked in the same way as reaching, making it the only "active" type ability added.
When it is invoked, though, there is a (Weaponmaster x 2)% chance of knocking back the selected target d2 spaces as well as {75% of standard damage, which always hits}

While this sounds good on the surface, and is a nice idea, at 27 skill, this is quite powerful. I know I'm totally contradicting what I said before, but 27 Stabbing is not something you really need, whereas these have actual utility. To invoke this the best, I'd take a normal hammer at min delay, of speed, and hit my enemy twice. That way I can just wait for my enemy to come back, and then hit him again. Twice. And again. And again. Also my enemy's EV is 0 now, so that's a plus.

Skewering
Applies to Spears, ~Possibly~ Light Blades
(Weaponmaster)% chance to inflict the new Constrict status that is supposed to be in 0.10

What, permanently? Every time you hit them? Even if it's permanently, you need to read how Constriction works. Then you will see why this is a bit awkward.

Reaching
Applies to Spears, Polearms, Flails and Whips
This is already implemented in 0.10 if I'm not mistaken. I just propose including Flails and Whips to those that automatically have Reach, and including:
(Weaponmaster x 2)% chance of hitting the target in the way of your reach as well. (i.e. hitting two targets on a line)

A quick point to consider: evokable abilities are a pain, because you have to navigate a menu to use them, often several times.

Flurrying
Applies to Unarmed, Light Blades
(Weaponmaster / 2)% chance to give self Speed brand for d3 turns if the weapon has no ego {~possibly~ without the reduction in damage}

I was waiting for the kick, and then I did a double take when I saw 'Unarmed'. Unarmed combat deals 2-60 damage a turn. By contrast, short blades are distinguished by their low delay and damage. Your suggestion would make, for instance, a dagger, have -10% damage. Since a +9 dagger deals d13, this means you are essentially lowering its damage by 1 for all rolls above 5 (its base+1), and giving it twice as many attacks. Do you know why this is bad? It involves big men wearing very heavy things. And they're not removalists, although they can REMOVE you.

Parrying
Applies to Shields {Possibly ONLY Buckler}, ~Possibly~ Off-hand light blade
I know, no dual wield. And there isn't. Just a blade that acts like a shield (quite legitimate in real combat). Anyway;
Bonus to SH == (Weaponmaster / 2)

This would be nice for lajatangs, quarterstaves and most long blades.

Riposte
Applies to Light Blades
After SH block success, gives (Weaponmaster)% chance to deal d[Weaponmaster] extra damage.
Specifically, ideal for a Rapier/Epee/Foil if such a weapon was added. Again, Parry with Buckler + use Stabby implement is a legit combat style and the namesake of swashbuckling.

There is strong resistance to adding random weapons. This can go with sabres; I am a fencer, and sabres are a legitimate heavy fencing weapon. Short blades is fine, though.

The ability itself is, unfortunately, a bit silly.

Pursuit
Applies to all (?)
When a foe flees from you and was in melee before, gives a (Weaponmaster)% chance of dealing d[Weaponmaster / 2] damage before they escape.

GAWD, I'd take this feat purely out of sheer ennui. ...Except it does, for some reason, bonus damage. Make it, "If a foe was in melee with you last turn, and they are now two spaces away, bash them silly with your spear."

Weapon Finesse (Optional)
Quite simple, this attribute. Its a value from -2 to +2, and this value is multiplied by 10, then added to the (Weaponmaster)%, giving a range from -20 to +20% chance of effects. So high Finesse weapons have a better chance of triggering their related benefit. This could allow for Daggers that exceptionally good for stabbing (aka. a Baselard, Poiniard) but have otherwise lower stats. Smaller spears have less chance of activiting the Reach Benefit. A Handaxe has less chance of hewing and cleaving. A swift blade is low finesse because its very fast.

Also, the Vorpal brand, to make it more respected among the other egos, can offer a 12.5% boost to the weapons base effects chance, identical to its current damage boost.

Not a way to use the vorpal brand. =P It would do fine just being 20%, since it ignores resistance. Speed is better for 200% delay weapons and Freezing/Flaming early, but a late game weapon that did 20% damage would be useful at least in some way, as a swap with Holy Wrath. Maybe a slight bonus.

So, you're saying my really slow weapons get +20% bonuses? So, uh, my Executioner's Axe of Holy Wrath (delay 7) gets a 2/3 chance of dealing d47 bonus damage to another enemy, but my hand axe gets a mere 34% chance of dealing 7? That's cold, maaan.

Also, stacking

[eharper256]

Please rewrite this so that it shows required links to understand it on the top and removes personal comments, thanks.

Ok, I added Links at the top and a short description. You're absolutely right...

Don't think there are many personal comments, though...??

[The Mantis]

Just the thing at the top, it was about an unrelated topic and had a link to it, so it distracted from the main thrust, i.e. your suggestion. Back to editing my post.

[eharper256]

Oh, ok, I see. Its relevant in that its why I'm posting here, rather than direct to the wiki. But yeah, I suppose it could be interpreted as me whining, so I'll remove the link, at least.

And, all of it needs trimming and refining, like anything like this.

Oh, and in the TYPE A/ TYPE B~ You're supposed to select 1 of the two effects. Not both!!

EDIT: Lol, you're utterly hammering everything. Guess its not as nifty a concept as I first thought and I'm rather inhibited by the fact that I don't actually know the numbers and mechanics much behind Crawl [guess I should use Wizard mode, eh?] and so don't actually know what is great and what is ridiculous etc.

Oh well, thanks for your suggestions; it may even be that this idea turns out to be utterly pointless, but I figure I'd contribute anyway.

[The Mantis]

It's okay. Sorry if I seemed harsh.

[Kate]

Shouldn't this be in Game Design Discussion?

Generally when suggesting things like this I'd say not to worry about giving precise numbers. What's important initially is whether the mechanic is good or not, not whether it's an x% chance of doing y damage - similarly, I don't think criticising all the percentages and numbers really achieves much either.

Adding an entirely new skill for this kind of thing doesn't really seem like the right approach to me. As mentioned on the wiki page, using str/dex as appropriate would be good, or if any skill is to be used it should probably just be the weapon skill (there's already plenty of good reasons to train Fighting, so adding additional incentive to train weapon skills to high levels would be nice).

[XuaXua]

Completely unrelated:

Quarterstaves should have reaching, but only if you're using it two-handed.

[TehDruid]

Completely unrelated:

Quarterstaves should have reaching, but only if you're using it two-handed.

Actually, if you think about it, wielding a quarterstaff or any double-bladed weapon requires you to have your hands in its middle area, thus its reach is quite small, actually. Maybe smaller than that of a big long blade. Holding it from one tip with both hands (to justify the reaching) is only viable as a choice for staves which unlike lajatangs don't have any blades attached to both their edges (ouch), and that would be best described as a mace attack instead of a quarterstaff fighting style. You're practically trying to bash someone with a long and thin club. Would be rather tiresome to wield a quarterstaff that way, too.

[eharper256]

Completely unrelated:

Quarterstaves should have reaching, but only if you're using it two-handed.

Actually, if you think about it, wielding a quarterstaff or any double-bladed weapon requires you to have your hands in its middle area, thus its reach is quite small, actually. Maybe smaller than that of a big long blade. Holding it from one tip with both hands (to justify the reaching) is only viable as a choice for staves which unlike lajatangs don't have any blades attached to both their edges (ouch), and that would be best described as a mace attack instead of a quarterstaff fighting style. You're practically trying to bash someone with a long and thin club. Would be rather tiresome to wield a quarterstaff that way, too.

Yeah, despite what crazy s**t Killik manages in Soul Caliber, normal people can't use Quarterstaves when holding them by the tip.

On the other hand, people also tend to forget that spears are just as deadly when you swing them in wide arcs as when you thrust with them, especially for making space.

By and the by, given most of the reactions, I'm glad I didn't try putting this on the wiki. I should leave the development to the devs, eh? Maybe I should make some more tiles to contribute instead, since I'm more of a dab hand with photoshop.

It can be moved to design discussion if you mods feel its better there, by and the by. I was split between the two places.