The Tavern

As a counter to the fun vaults thread, and maybe this belongs in the design section, but what vaults do you find NOT fun?

I don't mean hard, but consistently annoying, bothersome or seemingly pointless?

To start I suggest the Ecumenical Temple entrance vault that is a spiral with occasional glass/transparent walls. I always autotravel it if I stash there (I always avoid stashing in that design) and get stopped viewing the occasional rat or orc that I have to back out manually and kill.

That Orc entrance vault that's full of invisible shafts and other traps. I had to climb a lot of stairs before I finally saw what was on the other side.

The wide open Ice Cave entrance guarded by two Ice Statues hanging out right next to the portal. You either have to chance rushing through freezing clouds, ice beasts, and bolts of cold and hope the entrance is safe or you have to take on the statues, which may take too long to actually enter the portal. Except for the Ice Caves with fiends in them, that entrance is usually more dangerous than the mini-vault itself.

the sewer entry vault with a hidden door (you can see the portal and a few critters through a couple of glass walls).

the last two times i've found it, it's timed out before i found the door. regardless of what you think about hidden doors in general, it can appear by d:3, and you won't have trained t&d by that point. (it could be replaced by more dangerous, fast monsters and some free space around the vault, so there's actually a choice.)

Don't know about unfun, but the recent changes preventing smite-targeting from behind transparent walls seem to negate the point of some vaults, as they depended on monsters being able to hurt you from behind walls for their danger.

Edit: this is not a request that monsters should still be able to smite target through walls while players cannot! :roll:

Maybe more that some vaults need to be redesigned.

This one is basically sudden horrible death for the unspoiled at the depths it appears. Well, unless you've got lots of stealth, or blink.
(apologies for the grey-ness, and that I already opened and excluded it).

: this one.png (73.02 KiB) Viewed 13787 times

Just remember to keep this topic reasonably positive- don't let it descend into bashing. Remember that one person's completely unfair death is anther's interesting battle.

mageykun wrote:This one is basically sudden horrible death for the unspoiled at the depths it appears. Well, unless you've got lots of stealth, or blink.
(apologies for the grey-ness, and that I already opened and excluded it).
this one.png

Just remember to keep this topic reasonably positive- don't let it descend into bashing. Remember that one person's completely unfair death is anther's interesting battle.

I've gotten that vault twice; the first time it was a "What have I done" moment before I managed to kill them all.

The second involved me grinning evilly and saying "Bring it."

Jeremiah wrote:Don't know about unfun, but the recent changes preventing smite-targeting from behind transparent walls seem to negate the point of some vaults, as they depended on monsters being able to hurt you from behind walls for their danger.

Edit: this is not a request that monsters should still be able to smite target through walls while players cannot! Maybe more that some vaults need to be redesigned.

If you come across any vaults which still have these problems, please post them. I've updated a huge number of vaults to reflect the changes to targeting, but it's possible that I missed a couple.

Also, I'll be paying attention to this thread in case anyone wants to offer constructive criticism. I don't really mind if people just want to complain or vent, but if you want to offer specific (and realistic realistic) suggestions it would be much appreciated. Something in the form of "vault x has problems, but if you did ___ it would be better". If you don't know the name of it, use a screenshot.

I'd like to add the early, early Jiyva altar vaults with multiple jellies. At levels when jellies are a huge threat by themselves if you're not a Spriggan with a sling and plenty of stones or a lucky wand. Oozes would probably be more appropriate there.

How would we find vault names?

Blade wrote:How would we find vault names?

The wizard mode command &^E (or & then Ctrl+E) will list the vaults used, though sometimes there's dummy vaults listed. Once you've got the name you can search the des directory for a matching name (i.e. search in files for text) and see if that's the vault you're thinking of. Screenshot might be quicker.

TwilightPhoenix wrote:I'd like to add the early, early Jiyva altar vaults with multiple jellies. At levels when jellies are a huge threat by themselves if you're not a Spriggan with a sling and plenty of stones or a lucky wand. Oozes would probably be more appropriate there.

The idea is that you're supposed to convert (which turns the jellies neutral.) However, since it's early, going Jivya will doom you through resource exhaustion anyway...so...eh.

JeffQyzt wrote:
TwilightPhoenix wrote:I'd like to add the early, early Jiyva altar vaults with multiple jellies. At levels when jellies are a huge threat by themselves if you're not a Spriggan with a sling and plenty of stones or a lucky wand. Oozes would probably be more appropriate there.

The idea is that you're supposed to convert (which turns the jellies neutral.) However, since it's early, going Jivya will doom you through resource exhaustion anyway...so...eh.

Try to convert when the altar is behind a wall of jellies on D3. -_-

For me, the worse vault is all of them with untouchable monster behind glass wall. It stop auto-explore without the joy of killing this foe.

While I didn't properly articulate it in the first post, mageykun and evilmike have explained the point of this thread. No bashing, just complaining and explaining allowed.

I find the ecumenical Temple with the fish behind glass to be annoying as it stops autotravel.

JeffQyzt wrote:
TwilightPhoenix wrote:I'd like to add the early, early Jiyva altar vaults with multiple jellies. At levels when jellies are a huge threat by themselves if you're not a Spriggan with a sling and plenty of stones or a lucky wand. Oozes would probably be more appropriate there.

The idea is that you're supposed to convert (which turns the jellies neutral.) However, since it's early, going Jivya will doom you through resource exhaustion anyway...so...eh.

No, the idea is that you're supposed to run away. Jellies are slow and should never be a "huge threat" (unless you're a naga I suppose they could be more difficult). Come back up when you can deal with the jellies at least one at a time.

Meanwhile, if you don't go to the next floor, they'll wander around and eat everything. And spawn more jellies. I made that mistake once back when I was a newb. Never again. Ever.

This vault is okay when it spawns after D5 or D6 because then you're better prepared to either handle it or handle the next floor since the difficulty doesn't rise as dramatically as you descend (uniques on D2, Orc groups on D3, Ogres and Centaurs on D4, etc.). It's when you get it super early that it can deadlier than appropriate, directly or indirectly.

Jellies are one of the few interesting slow monsters. Having three of them on D:3 is good, not bad, in my opinion. You have to choose between (a) abandon level right away to save as many items as possible, (b) kite and kill them, (c) use resources.

Regarding the vaults stopping autoexplore: the proper solution is to have a tag (per vault or per monster) that overrides the stop.

The most valuable thing they will eat is a potion of cure mutation. Everything else in a low level like that is sacrificial, but most can do a level check. Or throw stones. Jellies don't eat artefacts.

Jelly speed 9 worked before variable energy came in. It was still a pain to kite them, but you could at least do so consistently. Now it's quite possible to get a long string of moves where you don't open the gap up so you can fling a stone, and in the meantime the jelly is regenerating health.

absolutego wrote:the sewer entry vault with a hidden door (you can see the portal and a few critters through a couple of glass walls).

the last two times i've found it, it's timed out before i found the door. regardless of what you think about hidden doors in general, it can appear by d:3, and you won't have trained t&d by that point. (it could be replaced by more dangerous, fast monsters and some free space around the vault, so there's actually a choice.)

The easiest way to get in this one is to walk and tap space (not the 5 key) 5 times on every other space and don't stand immediately facing corners. Keep in mind searching checks every three spaces. For a 5x6 rectangle, you use 15 spacebars on the top and bottom rows (second space in, covers left corner and middle, middle space covers all three non-corners, etc...) and 20 on each side for a total of 70 spacebars. Keep circling till you find it and it won't time out on you. No T&D skill needed.

Worst Abyss rune vault ever: 4 summoners at four corners of a small rectangular room that are unreachable without levitate or a reaching weapon. They spam summon fiends and shit. I simply left that hellhole.

minmay wrote:trog_book because, and only because, you can apport the book to steal it. This promotes the practice of using apportation on every book you see. Most noticeable with the warper background. The best solution is probably to burn the book as soon as it comes into LOS, or if you attempt to apport it.

What IS the book?

I actually like the Trog book vault. It's funny, it's flavorful, and it's very satisfying if you manage to stick it to ol' Troggo.

Honestly, I'm a little disappointed Trog doesn't retaliate when you steal his sacrifice. The first time I managed it, I totally expected a berserk Brothers in Arms or two to pop out of the air and chase after me for daring to defile Trog's altar. That would be a much more satisfying fix than an earlier detonation, and would actually serve as an apportation trap (something I don't think we have now) discouraging you from using it on everything.

It's the abyss. The whole point of its vaults is to be frustrating and encourage further running.

My main complaint with the early Jiyva altar is the jellies can actually make it hard or annoying to pick him up if you actually want to, optimal play be danged.

Edit: ^The book is random. One time, I had a warper that managed to ninja it. I got another book of spatial translocations. :p

XuaXua wrote:
absolutego wrote:the sewer entry vault with a hidden door (you can see the portal and a few critters through a couple of glass walls).

the last two times i've found it, it's timed out before i found the door. regardless of what you think about hidden doors in general, it can appear by d:3, and you won't have trained t&d by that point. (it could be replaced by more dangerous, fast monsters and some free space around the vault, so there's actually a choice.)

The easiest way to get in this one is to walk and tap space (not the 5 key) 5 times on every other space and don't stand immediately facing corners. Keep in mind searching checks every three spaces. For a 5x6 rectangle, you use 15 spacebars on the top and bottom rows (second space in, covers left corner and middle, middle space covers all three non-corners, etc...) and 20 on each side for a total of 70 spacebars. Keep circling till you find it and it won't time out on you. No T&D skill needed.

that's what i've always done (with '.', because space does nothing in console), and it's still a matter of luck. you may make it in time 9 out of 10 times (i always made it in time until these two), but sometimes you just miss it. given how timers work, it's easier if you notice the vault before you notice the portal (i.e. before you peer through the glass walls), which is worse because it encourages you not to autoexplore. again, since there are only animals inside, it'd be more interesting if the door was visible and you had to decide whether to open it and take them on.

damn, i'll make a submission, it can't be that hard.

minmay wrote:This problem would actually be greatly lessened by making them speed 8 or 7 instead of 9. Or speed 11, but that makes them ridiculously deadly to early non-casters (and some early casters too like Sk).

i second this (8 for a start). a single early jelly is not dangerous if you have a bunch of stones, just very tedious to kite. they are dangerous if they trap you in a corridor or a cul-de-sac, and speed doesn't matter much then.

I would prefer leaving jellies at speed 9, but giving them fast regeneration and lowering their HP. That way you can fight or run, but kiting is hard.

TwilightPhoenix wrote:I'd like to add the early, early Jiyva altar vaults with multiple jellies. At levels when jellies are a huge threat by themselves if you're not a Spriggan with a sling and plenty of stones or a lucky wand. Oozes would probably be more appropriate there.

I like those! And yes, I have been seriously inconvenienced by them, but I think they're cool.

My unfavourite vaults are the ones with herds of OOD monsters packed into oddly shaped/patterned areas, seemingly for the heck of it. They're not (usually) fatal, but they're not cool either, and I don't feel like they add anything - to me they feel like they're a relic from a time before the designer community figured out how to make interesting vaults. Angbandy, even.

I'm also getting a little tired of the bee vaults, but they're not actually terrible, just repetitive when they have fifty bees in them (assuming you survive the first chasing team).

joellercoaster wrote:My unfavourite vaults are the ones with herds of OOD monsters packed into oddly shaped/patterned areas, seemingly for the heck of it. They're not (usually) fatal, but they're not cool either, and I don't feel like they add anything - to me they feel like they're a relic from a time before the designer community figured out how to make interesting vaults. Angbandy, even.

"Angbandy" is a fair way to put it. I like this style though. Sure, it's old fashioned (most of the original vaults are in this style), but it's nice how straightforward they are. The only elements are a layout (often abstract), normal monsters (some OOD), and loot. They feel like part of the dungeon, rather than like totally different areas. Vault:8 is basically in this style - aside from the central ambush part, the level is always just four unconnected abstract vaults with OOD monsters and loot. Very fun.

This style also has the advantage of being much more random (and often balanced) than most "themed" vaults. They tend to leave it up to the RNG to pick monsters. Not as many spoilers this way, either.

I don't find the starting vault with the clear wall and all the nasty monsters behind the door very much fun because a jelly can just eat through the door and leave you having to evade the monsters and all the jellies. Just my thought on that vault.

Jabberwocky wrote:I don't find the starting vault with the clear wall and all the nasty monsters behind the door very much fun because a jelly can just eat through the door and leave you having to evade the monsters and all the jellies. Just my thought on that vault.

Don't let a jelly near them then. Jellies aren't generated behind those walls, and you're likely only going to go back to D:1 to kill all of them later for XP or just escape.

New Unfun vault:

The vault that is a square, with walls made of secret doors three-deep, filled with OOD creatures. I've noticed it a lot lately in trunk.

It's amusing the first time you encounter it in your game, but is old the second time and even more old the third time.

In the same game.

XuaXua wrote:New Unfun vault:

The vault that is a square, with walls made of secret doors three-deep, filled with OOD creatures. I've noticed it a lot lately in trunk.

It's amusing the first time you encounter it in your game, but is old the second time and even more old the third time.

In the same game.

Um, this is one of the oldest vaults in the game. It dates back more than 10 years. And yes, you can encounter it more than once. It's actually less common than it used to be, too.

It's also a really popular and iconic vault. I clearly remember the first time I encountered it.

XuaXua wrote:
Jabberwocky wrote:I don't find the starting vault with the clear wall and all the nasty monsters behind the door very much fun because a jelly can just eat through the door and leave you having to evade the monsters and all the jellies. Just my thought on that vault.

Don't let a jelly near them then. Jellies aren't generated behind those walls, and you're likely only going to go back to D:1 to kill all of them later for XP or just escape.

In thins vault jellies are generated, it doesn't happen every time but when it does, it's very annoying.

That vault is dpeg_entry_caged_fury; a jelly can only spawn at one of the ten 4 glyphs (which are placed in the corners away from the door), with a chance of 2 out of 64. The chance for no jelly is (31/32)^10=73%.
I fail to see the "very annoying".

dpeg wrote:That vault is dpeg_entry_caged_fury; a jelly can only spawn at one of the ten 4 glyphs (which are placed in the corners away from the door), with a chance of 2 out of 64. The chance for no jelly is (31/32)^10=73%.
I fail to see the "very annoying".

I know that the chance of a jelly being in it is very low but it is annoying when it happens. It's not a logical vault to find annoying but I still find it annoying.

You know what's unfun? Monster zoo-s on every second level in the Dungeons of Dredmor. This one is not that unfun.

evilmike wrote:Um, this is one of the oldest vaults in the game. It dates back more than 10 years. And yes, you can encounter it more than once. It's actually less common than it used to be, too.

I've only been seeing it lately and A LOT. Found it in DIS once and holy $#!+.

I found one of those in Pan once. It contained a Pan Lord backed up by a horde of fiends and executioners. I control blinked away and fled the level, screaming in terror like a little girl.

dpeg wrote:That vault is dpeg_entry_caged_fury; a jelly can only spawn at one of the ten 4 glyphs (which are placed in the corners away from the door), with a chance of 2 out of 64. The chance for no jelly is (31/32)^10=73%.
I fail to see the "very annoying".
Jabberwocky wrote:it doesn't happen every time but when it does, it's very annoying.

(Emphasis mine.)

Of course, the solution here is to get the hell off the level when you see it happen. It's D:1, you're not likely to screw up your early game by skipping it for a while.

evilmike wrote:"Angbandy" is a fair way to put it. I like this style though.

Yeah, certainly it's just a matter of personal taste. I guess if that's the least fun I can find a vault, then that bit of the game is in pretty good shape!

(And I like the dozens-of-doors vault.)

What's the point of this vault? An orange crystal statue behind translucent stone walls. Easier to just put up a sign saying "Imagine there's some loot here that you'll never get".

Grimm wrote:What's the point of this vault? An orange crystal statue behind translucent stone walls. Easier to just put up a sign saying "Imagine there's some loot here that you'll never get".

Now all we need is a fog machine!

Shatter or apportation.

So it's a "spellcasters only" vault. Unfun for melee players.

Grimm wrote:So it's a "spellcasters only" vault. Unfun for melee players.

Apportation isn't really a big deal.

For what it's worth, I think Apportation should get back the "grab item from underwater" ability at high power, and should also be able to be used to close or open doors at range. Maybe renamed to Telekinesis.

Grimm wrote:What's the point of this vault? An orange crystal statue behind translucent stone walls. Easier to just put up a sign saying "Imagine there's some loot here that you'll never get".

Currently doesn't work actually, thanks for posting this. In trunk that statue won't actually do anything to you.

Note that you can still get the loot even if you aren't a caster. Try wearing clarity.

I have a history of being statkilled by OCSs (-5 INT is a real burden) so I am reluctant to try it.

The Tavern

Unfun Vaults

Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults

Re: Unfun Vaults