DCSS is not a very good roguelike.


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Snake Sneak

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Post Sunday, 27th December 2020, 17:30

DCSS is not a very good roguelike.

There's a new definition of roguelike in the town:

When does the roguelike stuff kick in?

I bought the game today, and have died a couple times so far - but it seems like I'm resetting to a new game each time I die, with nothing (except the list of enemies I've seen) carrying over...

What should I be doing in order to have anything useful unlocked after my next death?

(Noita on Steam forums)

Conceptually it's interesting. It's deep and complex. But it isn't fun nor does it have any sort of meta-upgrade system that every roguelike has nowadays. I can't recommend this over Hades or Dead Cells.

(Noita on Metacritic, 5/10)

Crawl does not have a hardcoded unlock system, hence it's not a proper roguelike. It's not about permadeath, random generation, tiles, dungeons, combat, each run being different. It's about a new carrot every run or two. Sounds a bit like a MMORPG to be honest.

Thankfully, DCSS is not on metacritic. Who knows what could happen - a class action lawsuit for deceptive marketing?

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andrew

Shoals Surfer

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Post Sunday, 27th December 2020, 18:05

Re: DCSS is not a very good roguelike.

Worse, they might add a hardcoded unlock system. :(

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 27th December 2020, 19:48

Re: DCSS is not a very good roguelike.

I can't even...
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Post Tuesday, 29th December 2020, 23:05

Re: DCSS is not a very good roguelike.

this thread is Image but i want to point out that noita does have a meta-upgrade system

Snake Sneak

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Post Thursday, 31st December 2020, 08:57

Re: DCSS is not a very good roguelike.

It's interesting how the word "roguelike" comes to mean the opposite it once meant. It used to be about generating unique and crazy games, now it's understood as delivering a steady stream of rewards over time. We're not far from calling Call of Duty a roguelike: permadeath - check, meta progression - check, run based - check... The persistence with which players gravitate towards meta progression while neglecting everything else says something interesting about human psychology. Humans want to feel like they're achieving, and like being rewarded in an explicit way with persistent rewards. You don't see as many complaints about balance or repetitiveness. THIS is the stuff people really care about.

It's disappointing how people don't consider they can git gud. Most gamers seem to think they are either good or not good enough to beat a game and they can't change it. So, make the game progress me instead...

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bt

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Post Thursday, 31st December 2020, 09:59

Re: DCSS is not a very good roguelike.

b0rsuk wrote:It's interesting how the word "roguelike" comes to mean the opposite it once meant. It used to be about generating unique and crazy games, now it's understood as delivering a steady stream of rewards over time. We're not far from calling Call of Duty a roguelike: permadeath - check, meta progression - check, run based - check... The persistence with which players gravitate towards meta progression while neglecting everything else says something interesting about human psychology. Humans want to feel like they're achieving, and like being rewarded in an explicit way with persistent rewards. You don't see as many complaints about balance or repetitiveness. THIS is the stuff people really care about.

It's disappointing how people don't consider they can git gud. Most gamers seem to think they are either good or not good enough to beat a game and they can't change it. So, make the game progress me instead...


Both Hades and Dead Cells (examples from OP) offer a very-very high skill ceiling (meta-unlocks or not), so "git gut" is very much a part of those games. They are also quite like Rogue in that each run is random and permadeath is present, so your decisions matter.

I don't think meta-progression is inherently that different from normal progression in terms of triggering pleasure rewards from your brain. Early game in DCSS you get your rewards all the time - new gear, more impactful skill points, faster levelling, late game progression slows down and game becomes more of a slog. Reward mechanics are not that different in practice.

With regards to "you don't get as many complaints about balance or repetitiveness" you gotta be kidding.. Meta-progression doesn't make people less demanding or more polite. If anything DCSS community is less complain-y about those on average, probably cause DCSS has a reputation of being brutally hard (deserved or not) and player base is older than in modern titles.

Finally, meta-progression (in modern roguelikes) is usually designed as a sort of a set of training wheels, you get new mechanics introduced gradually, so newbies have an easier time learning them. The base game difficulty is usually understood to be the final state with most the of the things unlocked (final state might still be easier than DCSS of course, but that's neither here nor there).

PS. Some modern roguelikes include ways to skip the meta-progression entirely (Slay the Spire for example) by editing a text file. If I had to guess, this trend will continue and the option will become a staple in coming decades, and so the cycle will be complete once again.
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Mines Malingerer

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Post Thursday, 31st December 2020, 13:59

Re: DCSS is not a very good roguelike.

bt wrote:Finally, meta-progression (in modern roguelikes) is usually designed as a sort of a set of training wheels, you get new mechanics introduced gradually, so newbies have an easier time learning them. The base game difficulty is usually understood to be the final state with most the of the things unlocked (final state might still be easier than DCSS of course, but that's neither here nor there).

PS. Some modern roguelikes include ways to skip the meta-progression entirely (Slay the Spire for example) by editing a text file. If I had to guess, this trend will continue and the option will become a staple in coming decades, and so the cycle will be complete once again.

Actually the meta progression is the reverse difficulty curve common in jRPGs. Basically the game get easier as you "grind" (and lose). Basically anyone can gradually win out.

"Recent" games like Binding of Isaac and Hades included additional difficulty options to offset this constant influx of upgrades in the player later on. They have additional difficulty features and even additional levels.

A progression system makes people feel like they accomplished something even tough they lost the run.

Snake Sneak

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Post Thursday, 31st December 2020, 18:42

Re: DCSS is not a very good roguelike.

I don't think meta-progression is inherently that different from normal progression in terms of triggering pleasure rewards from your brain. Early game in DCSS you get your rewards all the time - new gear, more impactful skill points, faster levelling, late game progression slows down and game becomes more of a slog. Reward mechanics are not that different in practice.

Except they bleed over from game to game. When I play DCSS or Dusk, I know I'm having success because I've become a better player. In Crypt of the Necrodancer, unlocking a rifle or bow goes a loong way towards completing a zone. I start wondering if I really became better at a game or the game became easier over time? Permanent unlocks rig the game from the start, unless they're a tradeoff like another playable character.
Finally, meta-progression (in modern roguelikes) is usually designed as a sort of a set of training wheels, you get new mechanics introduced gradually, so newbies have an easier time learning them. The base game difficulty is usually understood to be the final state with most the of the things unlocked (final state might still be easier than DCSS of course, but that's neither here nor there).

PS. Some modern roguelikes include ways to skip the meta-progression entirely (Slay the Spire for example) by editing a text file. If I had to guess, this trend will continue and the option will become a staple in coming decades, and so the cycle will be complete once again.

Does it work that way in practice? (Steam) achievements and unlocks cause a steady stream of new threads in a game forum. People clearly torture themselves, for example playing a character they don't like, or proclaim to lose interest after getting all achievements. Achievements and unlocks become the target for surprisingly many people. It's similar to that rule: "What you measure is what you get.". When you introduce a metric to measure performance in an organization, often the metric and not performance becomes the target.

Crypt of the Necrodancer, similar to Spelunky, gives players a set of shortcuts so they can start at a late zone and even with equipment. Judging by forum activity, many people play just to complete Zone X and don't bother with "All zones mode" later.

You might say it doesn't affect me if I choose not to play like them. It does. Games get balanced around those "training wheels".

The parts I didn't quote and respond to are those I might be wrong about, so I'm pretending that didin't happen.

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andrew

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Post Thursday, 31st December 2020, 19:15

Re: DCSS is not a very good roguelike.

Also, just based on my experience with ToME4 --- there are actions one does for the sole purpose of getting an unlock. (Unlocking Skirmishers required me to do a bizarre dance, having not much to do with normal play; betraying the merchant is never the correct choice, except the first time you get a Rogue that far, for the unlock.) This is annoying (at least to me). Also, before you unlock the Transmogrification Chest the game is just horribly tedious.

The effect of all this is to force new players to play a harder and far inferior game. (And not even necessarily more accessible --- if all new players are forced to worship Trog, then that makes it less accessible if you think Makhleb is easier; you'd have to start your "guide for new players" with a strategy for getting the Makhleb unlock.)

bt

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Post Friday, 1st January 2021, 14:34

Re: DCSS is not a very good roguelike.

Deso wrote:A progression system makes people feel like they accomplished something even tough they lost the run.


Why is that bad, you play the games to have a good time, don't you? Also, there are a lot of threads by new players about lost runs, where they say they felt good about getting their first rune or getting to Zot for the first time. Basically, feeling accomplished about a lost run is not unique to games with meta-progression system, DCSS has it as well.

b0rsuk wrote:Except they bleed over from game to game. When I play DCSS or Dusk, I know I'm having success because I've become a better player. In Crypt of the Necrodancer, unlocking a rifle or bow goes a loong way towards completing a zone. I start wondering if I really became better at a game or the game became easier over time? Permanent unlocks rig the game from the start, unless they're a tradeoff like another playable character.


There are usually extra difficulty modes to make the game harder after making it easier by unlocking stuff (like Deso mentioned). It's like a seewsaw easier-harder-easier-harder etc., helps keep experience fresh. I agree, that it makes it more difficult to judge personal growth, but it's already difficult to judge personal growth regardless, what with the whole Dunning–Kruger effect. In fact achievements often are a tool for tracking how good you are at the game (so you should be for them and not against :)).

No experience with Crypt of the Necrodancer, but I would expect there to be games where progression system is implemented poorly (or is just not to my tastes), those cases don't make the system as a whole bad by default, I don't think.

b0rsuk wrote:Does it work that way in practice? (Steam) achievements and unlocks cause a steady stream of new threads in a game forum. People clearly torture themselves, for example playing a character they don't like, or proclaim to lose interest after getting all achievements. Achievements and unlocks become the target for surprisingly many people.


That's not really different from DCSS, people often complain about trouble with getting their stabber/felid/greaterplayer/atheist/15-rune win. Achievements are just stats with a badge attached, stats are not bad by themselves, and a lot of appeal for playing web-tiles comes from moderately robust stat tracking. Badges also are not bad by themselves, if implemented smartly they can give much needed direction to newer players (like branch order and such) or give good ideas about interesting challenges to veterans. Also DCSS already has achievements, it's just to get to them you have to execute complicated beem commands (complicated for me, not being a code warlock and all).

b0rsuk wrote:The parts I didn't quote and respond to are those I might be wrong about, so I'm pretending that didin't happen.


I appreciate the finesse :), same back at ya.

andrew wrote:Also, just based on my experience with ToME4 --- there are actions one does for the sole purpose of getting an unlock. (Unlocking Skirmishers required me to do a bizarre dance, having not much to do with normal play; betraying the merchant is never the correct choice, except the first time you get a Rogue that far, for the unlock.) This is annoying (at least to me). Also, before you unlock the Transmogrification Chest the game is just horribly tedious.

The effect of all this is to force new players to play a harder and far inferior game. (And not even necessarily more accessible --- if all new players are forced to worship Trog, then that makes it less accessible if you think Makhleb is easier; you'd have to start your "guide for new players" with a strategy for getting the Makhleb unlock.)


I'm all for there being an option to skip unlocking stuff in games, same as an option for difficulty setting. Never played ToME, mechanics looked very confused and untidy to me, all the decimals, dozens of stats for each item, screenfulls of "+5.2% to that" and "-29.17 to this", but again one bad example doesn't make the system as a whole bad.

To clarify, I don't think DCSS needs a meta-progression system, but I also don't think other games somehow are made worse just by having it, it's a case-by-case thing like most other things in life. DCSS, in my humble opinion, could benefit from a more explicit achievement system (or more robust stat tracking, if you like), but that would probably be a lot of work for the wizards of the code (I'm not even sure if servers could handle the extra load).

Shoals Surfer

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Post Friday, 1st January 2021, 16:05

Re: DCSS is not a very good roguelike.

bt wrote:Never played ToME, mechanics looked very confused and untidy to me, all the decimals, dozens of stats for each item, screenfulls of "+5.2% to that" and "-29.17 to this",


Never having won ToME, and always having come back to DCSS in the end, I sympathize.

DCSS, in my humble opinion, could benefit from a more explicit achievement system (or more robust stat tracking, if you like), but that would probably be a lot of work for the wizards of the code (I'm not even sure if servers could handle the extra load).


Agreed. One thing that I wish existed in stat-tracking would be characters' first religion; learning that a character won with TSO often doesn't tell one much.
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Mines Malingerer

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Post Friday, 1st January 2021, 17:46

Re: DCSS is not a very good roguelike.

Well difficulty selection is a very good thing to have. As mentioned elsewhere species selection can replace a dedicated difficulty system, but it might be better to have it as an stand alone system.

A global modification to monster's stats, chance to use special abilities, experience and so on.


Actually... It might be better to have an option menu like xcom's 1 second wave menu or Hades' pact of punishment. Where players can setup some global settings.

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Saturday, 2nd January 2021, 03:50

Re: DCSS is not a very good roguelike.

Add cheevos to dungeon crawl 0.27

Shoals Surfer

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Post Saturday, 2nd January 2021, 23:11

Re: DCSS is not a very good roguelike.

Like what? Just "reached Temple", "reached Lair", etc?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 14th February 2021, 00:52

Re: DCSS is not a very good roguelike.

andrew wrote:Like what? Just "reached Temple", "reached Lair", etc?

I liked the part of this post where you assumed the person above you is arguing in good faith. I think he's kidding ;)

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Post Sunday, 14th February 2021, 03:24

Re: DCSS is not a very good roguelike.

I actually do think, unironically, that the game should track banner achievements (outside of tournament time) and maybe some other challenge conditions/conducts and display those. It's cool to have things like that to aim for, imo. Whether and/or how you put those into an offline release is another thing ofc.

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