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What just happened to butchering?

PostPosted: Monday, 6th July 2020, 07:03
by Majang
"Sorry, you don't eat raw flesh."
Am I expected to find more rations now? How can I protect a troll from starvation?

Re: What just happened to butchering?

PostPosted: Monday, 6th July 2020, 07:14
by Siegurt
Trolls apparently don't require as much food as they did:
Remove chunk eating for most species

Ghouls retain the ability because that's their thing. With spell hunger
removed food conducts become a vestigal part of crawl that can be used
to tweak the food clock for different species. Spriggans, with their
move speed, seem to be the only ones that require this adjustment,
accounted for by MUT_HERBIVORIOUS' nutrition penalty on rations.

Trolls lose their flavorful fast metabolism gourmand combo, which is a
shame and perhaps could be restored, but in practice it didn't confine
gameplay much for non-Gozag trolls. They retain fast metabolism 1 to
account for their regeneration.

Hydra form now allows devouring up to Engorged for all species that can
transmute.


It appears that spell hunger has also been removed.

Re: What just happened to butchering?

PostPosted: Monday, 6th July 2020, 07:16
by Majang
Siegurt wrote:It appears that spell hunger has also been removed.

Yaaay!!!

Re: What just happened to butchering?

PostPosted: Monday, 6th July 2020, 07:20
by Majang
And yes, it frees up a much needed inventory slot.

Re: What just happened to butchering?

PostPosted: Monday, 6th July 2020, 10:16
by Shtopit
Wow, crazy. Is this 0.25, or trunk?

Re: What just happened to butchering?

PostPosted: Monday, 6th July 2020, 10:53
by chequers
0.25

Re: What just happened to butchering?

PostPosted: Monday, 6th July 2020, 12:00
by Majang
No, it's trunk.

Re: What just happened to butchering?

PostPosted: Monday, 6th July 2020, 14:13
by petercordia
I would have preferred if berserk still had hunger cost, and gourmand still allowed eating corpses.
For one thing it would make FeBe & KoBe feel distinct from MiBe. Trolls and Felids rampaging through the dungeon and cannibalising the dungeon citizens also felt very flavourful.
For another thing (if the gourmand amulet was reintroduced) it would allow the hunger clock to be tighter without being unfair. I suspect that the nutrition of rations could be halved.

Glad Zin is less frustrating now though.

Re: What just happened to butchering?

PostPosted: Monday, 6th July 2020, 16:47
by Magipi
petercordia wrote:I would have preferred if berserk still had hunger cost, and gourmand still allowed eating corpses.
For one thing it would make FeBe & KoBe feel distinct from MiBe.

Somehow I don't need food to feel a difference between MiBe and KoBe and FeBe.

Re: What just happened to butchering?

PostPosted: Monday, 6th July 2020, 16:49
by Magipi
By the way, Siegurt, what is your source? I use http://crawl.develz.org/trunk/changes.txt but there is no sign of this change yet.

Re: What just happened to butchering?

PostPosted: Monday, 6th July 2020, 17:01
by petercordia
you can already find documentation on https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5 ... ed13ab690b and a bit more documentation spread throughout github.

PS: I know KoBe feels different from MiBe, but now it feels simply inferior. FeBe still has the speed advantage, but unlimited beserking was still one of its big draws.

Re: What just happened to butchering?

PostPosted: Monday, 6th July 2020, 17:03
by petercordia
removed

Re: What just happened to butchering?

PostPosted: Monday, 6th July 2020, 18:34
by Siegurt
Magipi wrote:By the way, Siegurt, what is your source? I use http://crawl.develz.org/trunk/changes.txt but there is no sign of this change yet.

If you want to see *everything* you can go here:
https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commits/master

If you want to search for something you can type it in the search bar at the top and click on 'commits' on the left

The changes.txt file is more like a synopsis of the overall set of changes, that someone writes up and adds. The "commits" are literally each chunk of changes that are added (With a hopefully-useful comment as to what the change does and perhaps a why)

Re: What just happened to butchering?

PostPosted: Monday, 6th July 2020, 19:03
by le_nerd
New hunger clock is actually relevant on weak species. I expect that must be changed a bit. I play quickly on melee octopodes compared to average players and even there its been tight a couple times.

Re: What just happened to butchering?

PostPosted: Monday, 6th July 2020, 19:33
by Siegurt
le_nerd wrote:New hunger clock is actually relevant on weak species. I expect that must be changed a bit. I play quickly on melee octopodes compared to average players and even there its been tight a couple times.

Extra hunger from melee was removed a few hours ago (likely not in your trunk yet) so that should help ease that up some.

https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6 ... dece600e9d
Remove melee hunger

This is paired with the removal of spell hunger and chunk eating.
Abilities still have hunger, which makes their strategic costs more
relevant. If this is too relevant, they can lose hunger costs as well,
and the prevalence of rations adjusted to keep an ok food clock.

There have been reports that D:1-7 are a bit tight hunger wise even for
non-degenerate play; if melee hunger removal doesn't fully address this
an additional starting ration can be handed out.

Re: What just happened to butchering?

PostPosted: Monday, 6th July 2020, 20:29
by le_nerd
Sweet. Yeah a starting ration might be needed regardless but it'll help.

Re: What just happened to butchering?

PostPosted: Tuesday, 14th July 2020, 17:06
by archaeo
Incredible. Food is finally over.

Re: What just happened to butchering?

PostPosted: Tuesday, 14th July 2020, 18:03
by Majang
archaeo wrote:Incredible. Food is finally over.

Well, that leaves a bland taste in my mouth... ;)

Re: What just happened to butchering?

PostPosted: Tuesday, 14th July 2020, 18:19
by Shtopit
I hope it doesn't get reinstated for trolls. The problem with gourmand + fast metabolism is that it creates fake interaction. Why fake? Because you do not control which bodies are left. So you "interact" with the body, but that's something the computer decides, not you.

Instead, I think it would be fun to add a "swallow whole" ability. You choose a living, edible target. 10 auts, you roll to hit + a special die. If you succeed, the creature is dead and you are full. To handle inventory items, you could spit out the victim's possession the following turn. Maybe even turn it into a ranged attack. As you level up, you can swallow increasingly large creatures, reaching Giant at lvl 24.

Re: What just happened to butchering?

PostPosted: Tuesday, 14th July 2020, 18:30
by PseudoLoneWolf
Shtopit wrote:Instead, I think it would be fun to add a "swallow whole" ability.


Save-or-Die is, historically, kind of a bad idea in most games that implement something of the sort. If I were to do that I would have the success chance of the swallow ability scale directly with the remaining HP of the monster, to prevent the ability to just delete one dangerous opponent from the fight in one turn.

Re: What just happened to butchering?

PostPosted: Tuesday, 14th July 2020, 18:38
by Siegurt
PseudoLoneWolf wrote:
Shtopit wrote:Instead, I think it would be fun to add a "swallow whole" ability.


Save-or-Die is, historically, kind of a bad idea in most games that implement something of the sort. If I were to do that I would have the success chance of the swallow ability scale directly with the remaining HP of the monster, to prevent the ability to just delete one dangerous opponent from the fight in one turn.

Besides, we already have banishment, pacify, paralysis, teleport other, confusion, etc.

Re: What just happened to butchering?

PostPosted: Tuesday, 14th July 2020, 22:05
by Shtopit
PseudoLoneWolf wrote:
Shtopit wrote:Instead, I think it would be fun to add a "swallow whole" ability.


Save-or-Die is, historically, kind of a bad idea in most games that implement something of the sort. If I were to do that I would have the success chance of the swallow ability scale directly with the remaining HP of the monster, to prevent the ability to just delete one dangerous opponent from the fight in one turn.


Then it could work with a HP threshold that increases with level, and you get an immediate HP gain, or some useful state (heightened regen, for example).

Re: What just happened to butchering?

PostPosted: Thursday, 16th July 2020, 21:53
by Shtopit
Also, a secondary observation: I read a few posts in the past lamenting how mages had been nerfed and nerfed during the past versions, to the point that their weakness translated into tediousness. Would this change balance the game again?

Re: What just happened to butchering?

PostPosted: Friday, 17th July 2020, 08:05
by Majang
Shtopit wrote:Also, a secondary observation: I read a few posts in the past lamenting how mages had been nerfed and nerfed during the past versions, to the point that their weakness translated into tediousness. Would this change balance the game again?

I like playing mages, and I believe this change certainly helps. There was a point far in the end game when spell hunger didn't matter any more, but in the early and mid game, particularly when playing with Vehumet, you could cast spells that made you go through your lunch package rather quickly.

Re: What just happened to butchering?

PostPosted: Monday, 20th July 2020, 10:06
by VeryAngryFelid
Shtopit wrote:Also, a secondary observation: I read a few posts in the past lamenting how mages had been nerfed and nerfed during the past versions, to the point that their weakness translated into tediousness. Would this change balance the game again?


Yes, mages are great again :)
Thanks, devs!

Re: What just happened to butchering?

PostPosted: Sunday, 26th July 2020, 18:44
by tabstorm
"Hmm, I wonder what's going on with DCSS? I haven't checked on it in a few years..."
"Remove butchering and eating."
"It's over. It's finally over."

Re: What just happened to butchering?

PostPosted: Sunday, 26th July 2020, 18:56
by Majang
tabstorm wrote:"Hmm, I wonder what's going on with DCSS? I haven't checked on it in a few years..."
"Remove butchering and eating."
"It's over. It's finally over."

Got to get yourself a new avatar and a new tagline.

Re: What just happened to butchering?

PostPosted: Tuesday, 4th August 2020, 22:33
by archaeo
tabstorm wrote:"Hmm, I wonder what's going on with DCSS? I haven't checked on it in a few years..."
"Remove butchering and eating."
"It's over. It's finally over."


Truly a light in these dark days.

Re: What just happened to butchering?

PostPosted: Friday, 21st August 2020, 19:28
by ZipZipskins
looks like i'm coming crawling back, folks!