'Agony' and 'dispel undead' range 1 in trunk

[Turukano]

Edit:
I changed the topic title. As we know from an answer below, the new range 1 is intended in trunk.

Edit 2:
In the meantime these changes are officially announced here: Trunk Updates 10 December 2019 Part II: Magic Changes


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I rarely play with Kiku, so I'm not too familiar with some of the necromancy spells. But dispel undead und agony should be ranged spells?

In an actual trunk game...

Spoiler: show

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.25-a0-287-g56a5b49892 (webtiles) character file.

...I have a char who needs to position one square away to cast these spells:

  Code:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Range   Level  Hunger

g - Agony                 Necr           #####...     @>          5    ######.

u - Dispel Undead         Necr           #####...     @>          5    ######.



Is this a bug or a new trunk feature?

Pain spell is not affected btw.

  Code:

p - Pain                  Necr           ####         @---->         1    None

Normal spell overview with failure rate:

Spoiler: show

  Code:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
d - Animate Dead          Necr           N/A          2%          4    ####...
g - Agony                 Necr           #####...     8%          5    ######.
k - Animate Skeleton      Necr           N/A          1%          1    None
p - Pain                  Necr           ####         1%          1    None
r - Regeneration          Chrm/Necr      ####......   3%          3    ###....
u - Dispel Undead         Necr           #####...     8%          5    ######.


[bel]

Several spells have changed in trunk. See this thread and this document. The latter might be out-of-date, not sure.

[Turukano]

I'm aware of the actual rework of magic spells. However, I didn't expect necro spells to be affected.

So the spell range of 1 is very likely intended and no bug.

[TheMeInTeam]

While much of the necro school is still excellent, it was an odd step to nerf these to the extent that it's largely not worth running them. Especially agony; a fair few things are immune outright. It's power boosted, but can still fail...and player melee attacks are frequently pretty competitive with its average expected damage especially if target is already hurt. For a 5 slot spell it's hard to justify running it. Dispel undead is hard to justify at its price tag either. Would I rather dispel undead on liches, greater mummies, curse toes, and death cobs in melee...or use BVC and/or other magic and stay out of crystal spear range/kill targets sooner? Not a hard call.

[vt]

So the spell range of 1 is very likely intended and no bug.

Yes it's definitely intended.

https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3 ... a9d007b379

[duvessa]

Agony was overpowered (and probably still is), it would make perfect sense to nerf it for nerfing's sake, even if that was the only purpose of the change (it wasn't). Dispel undead should go back to level 4 or just be removed entirely, though.

[vt]

player melee attacks are frequently pretty competitive with [agony's] average expected damage especially if target is already hurt. For a 5 slot spell it's hard to justify running it.

Agony was really good, and I imagine it to still be good for lots of characters. I feel like I'm belaboring the obvious, but an attack that has a high chance to damage an enemy by half their hp is frequently very useful.

Of course agony's expected damage output per cast will be very low if you just keep casting it over and over on things that are hurt already, but that's just to say you can use a good spell poorly.

[TheMeInTeam]

player melee attacks are frequently pretty competitive with [agony's] average expected damage especially if target is already hurt. For a 5 slot spell it's hard to justify running it.

Agony was really good, and I imagine it to still be good for lots of characters. I feel like I'm belaboring the obvious, but an attack that has a high chance to damage an enemy by half their hp is frequently very useful.

Of course agony's expected damage output per cast will be very low if you just keep casting it over and over on things that are hurt already, but that's just to say you can use a good spell poorly.

It was (still is) a situational spell, but now its situations are fewer. There are:

Monsters with MR immunity --> bad deal
Monsters with any MR value, but immune to negative energy --> bad deal
Monsters with enough MR that even agony is sub-50% odds --> bad deal, rarely can this sort of target tank 2-4 hits at less mana cost and still have > 50% hp.
Monsters with low hp total and low-mid MR --> bad deal (direct damage options frequently hit for > half their health in similar average time, and apply to more targets)
Monsters with high HP + low-mid MR --> good deal

This does somewhat change based on player's weapon and alternative spells, but even with range this spell was strictly dominated not just by other spell schools, but sometimes by alternative necromancy spells while it still had range. Now that it's melee, it's even harder to justify running 5 spell slots on it, especially because you STILL need to run things that actually deal competitive damage once you hit target for 50% health.

Consider magic like irradiate or fireball, which again could strictly dominate agony in many scenarios previously (time/#casts to kill, mana usage, less variance because they don't check MR). Are these spells broadly considered overpowered too?

Compare its average mana expenditure and use case to something like confuse, which is a ranged MR check spell at significantly lower level that trivializes the threat from target in addition to boosting average damage done to it. Melee + level 5 + no immediate reduction in return threat is a big ask compared to spells like confuse, petrify, invisibility, and such just as it's not very favorable against similar tiered direct damage magic. Doing damage to a single isolated target with average-to-bad MR is one of the times where player character needs the help least. It strikes me as a significant reach to call this "overpowered". Something like SLS? Sure. But this? I don't see the basis for it.

[petercordia]

I agree. It's almost always possible to hurt stuff for a quarter of their hp reliably. When you've got your damage-dealing sorted, spells like Swiftness, PoG, Deflect Missiles, Yara's, Fear, various AOE / non-elemental damage spells, Animate Dead, Aura of Abjuration, Darkness, Gell's Gravitas, Invisibility, Shadow Creatures, Mana Vipers, etc, are all more useful to have available than "kill low-mr living enemies slightly faster, provided you only start killing them when they've gotten into melee range". I usually run out of spell slots, and have to prioritise.

I guess Agony could be worth it for heavy melee-necro hybrids.

[byrel]

It's almost always possible to hurt stuff for a quarter of their hp reliably

We must be playing a different game. Attacks in dcss are anything but reliable; even with a great weapon and mindelay it often takes 50 auts or more to deal 25% HP. I suspect the cleaner UI of melee (tab) is making you underestimate how often you miss or deal small damage.

[VeryAngryFelid]

I don't get it. What's the point of magic if you should be in light armour after investing in 2 magic skills just to be able to cast a spell in 10 auts at adjacent monster when the magic does less damage than melee attack in 7 auts does and the spell does not affect or can be resisted by the monster. It's "glass cannon" in the worst possible form.

[VeryAngryFelid]

We must be playing a different game. Attacks in dcss are anything but reliable; even with a great weapon and mindelay it often takes 50 auts or more to deal 25% HP. I suspect the cleaner UI of melee (tab) is making you underestimate how often you miss or deal small damage.

It looks like Ne is a clear hybrid background now who casts some spells before meleeing monster to the death. It was already close to hybrid before the change though. I wonder if Vehumet increases range for Agony and DU.

[petercordia]

It's almost always possible to hurt stuff for a quarter of their hp reliably

We must be playing a different game. Attacks in dcss are anything but reliable; even with a great weapon and mindelay it often takes 50 auts or more to deal 25% HP. I suspect the cleaner UI of melee (tab) is making you underestimate how often you miss or deal small damage.

I think we are. I wasn't talking about melee attacks. I was talking about fireball, iron shot, etcetera.

Again, playing a mage who can cast level 5 spells from pretty much any spell school.
If I go Kiku I prefer to get sacrulum ASAP, and stay behind my allies.

I understand Agony could be useful if you're going heavy armour+1-handed weapon+necromancy. That just doesn't seem like something I would do.

[byrel]

It's almost always possible to hurt stuff for a quarter of their hp reliably

We must be playing a different game. Attacks in dcss are anything but reliable; even with a great weapon and mindelay it often takes 50 auts or more to deal 25% HP. I suspect the cleaner UI of melee (tab) is making you underestimate how often you miss or deal small damage.

I think we are. I wasn't talking about melee attacks. I was talking about fireball, iron shot, etcetera.

Again, playing a mage who can cast level 5 spells from pretty much any spell school.
If I go Kiku I prefer to get sacrulum ASAP, and stay behind my allies.

I understand Agony could be useful if you're going heavy armour+1-handed weapon+necromancy. That just doesn't seem like something I would do.

I see what you're saying, kind of. It's true that if you have iron shot, agony is less useful. I'm judging based off the melee case because that's what the devs said these changes were doing; moving necro more towards being a melee support school.

[sdynet]

I see what you're saying, kind of. It's true that if you have iron shot, agony is less useful. I'm judging based off the melee case because that's what the devs said these changes were doing; moving necro more towards being a melee support school.

Hmm? Really? Then I understand the intention of change. Buuut... that intention hasn't reached its goal yet. I played the Necro-warrior(DrFi) a few days ago. I've honed some Warrior skills, which made it impossible to raise my Necromancy skill level enough. What I realized then was that it was easier and more efficient for me to give up my warrior skills, manipulate corpses and fight safely. These spells do not help much either the warrior or the wizard...

If Agony is really melee support spell, I think Agony is this method. Spell power is N/A. Do not check enemy MR. Instead, I lose 1d5 hp each time I use it. At this point I'll use it.

[Magipi]

I understand Agony could be useful if you're going heavy armour+1-handed weapon+necromancy. That just doesn't seem like something I would do.

I have done it many many times, and it is good. The new agony spell is almost completely useless even for this build though.

Agony is pretty much only good if you can cast it on a monster with full hp or close to it. So if you see a monster at the edge of your line sight, then agony, agony, and then kill it. That is impossible now. What are you supposed to do? Just stand there like a fool and wait for the monster to come close? No throwing, no spells, no wands? This is ridiculous.

To be fair, there are some fringe cases. For example, you are standing in a killhole. Monsters that come into sight are immediately adjacent. For this reason, I don't call the new agony spell "completely useless", I only call it "almost completely useless".

[Sprucery]

Agony is pretty much only good if you can cast it on a monster with full hp or close to it.

Exactly. I'm really puzzled by this change for this reason. How do the devs see players using range-1 Agony? Generally you want to hurt things before they get to you, and if you do, Agony is probably not the best option if the monster manages to get next to you.