Poll: What do you think about incentive structures in Crawl?


If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it belongs here. Also, come here if you just need to get hammered.

What do you think about incentive structures in Crawl?

Poll ended at Saturday, 15th February 2020, 17:04

They're good.
0
No votes
They're bad.
5
100%
 
Total votes : 5
User avatar

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 454

Joined: Thursday, 1st November 2018, 02:33

Post Sunday, 8th December 2019, 17:04

Poll: What do you think about incentive structures in Crawl?

How about it, folks? What do you think about incentive structures in crawl?

Feel free to elaborate below if your thoughts on this matter don't fit cleanly or are not limited to one of the poll options!
This is where mechanical excellence and one-thousand four-hundred horsepower pays off.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6454

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Sunday, 8th December 2019, 21:45

Re: Poll: What do you think about incentive structures in Cr

It's not clear what you mean by "incentive structures" without further context.
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

For this message the author Siegurt has received thanks:
Turukano

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8786

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Monday, 9th December 2019, 00:52

Re: Poll: What do you think about incentive structures in Cr

when i was in middle and high school i was one of those annoying "debate me" atheists and just a giant asshole in general (as you do when you're in middle and high school (i'm still an asshole yes but not as much of one)) and one time i called this old guy a moron because he said he didn't believe in the big bang, and later he started talking about how when snow falls on the ground, it falls in neat smooth sheets instead of being all lumpy and random, and that science can't explain that

For this message the author duvessa has received thanks:
Airwolf
User avatar

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 454

Joined: Thursday, 1st November 2018, 02:33

Post Monday, 9th December 2019, 01:26

Re: Poll: What do you think about incentive structures in Cr

Uh, a little worried that if this thread isn't good I'm not going to get the response I'm looking for...
This is where mechanical excellence and one-thousand four-hundred horsepower pays off.

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 139

Joined: Saturday, 10th January 2015, 22:27

Post Monday, 9th December 2019, 01:57

Re: Poll: What do you think about incentive structures in Cr

I just don't know enough about what you're asking to answer this. It's too broad a question.

For example:

The incentives for (even untrained) wand-use in the early-game? In a good place.
The incentives for luring? In a bad place.

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 689

Joined: Saturday, 12th December 2015, 23:54

Post Monday, 9th December 2019, 03:45

Re: Poll: What do you think about incentive structures in Cr

duvessa wrote:when i was in middle and high school i was one of those annoying "debate me" atheists and just a giant asshole in general (as you do when you're in middle and high school (i'm still an asshole yes but not as much of one)) and one time i called this old guy a moron because he said he didn't believe in the big bang, and later he started talking about how when snow falls on the ground, it falls in neat smooth sheets instead of being all lumpy and random, and that science can't explain that

same
User avatar

Zot Zealot

Posts: 991

Joined: Monday, 15th April 2013, 15:10

Location: Augsburg, Germany

Post Monday, 9th December 2019, 14:29

Siegurt wrote:It's not clear what you mean by "incentive structures" without further context.

tealizard, please note that there are not only native English speakers in the Tavern.

Concerning me: when I read the poll's question I first looked up the meaning of "incentive". Now I know the German word but I'm still not sure about the meaning of "incentive structures". Do you mean extra areas reachable via teleporter (ghost vaults) or portals (sewer/volcano/bailey etc.)?
User avatar

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 454

Joined: Thursday, 1st November 2018, 02:33

Post Monday, 9th December 2019, 15:12

Re: Poll: What do you think about incentive structures in Cr

Oh, I was just referring to the comment in the other thread that used this language. I am unironically interested in whatever implojin might have said under other circumstances.
This is where mechanical excellence and one-thousand four-hundred horsepower pays off.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6454

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Monday, 9th December 2019, 17:05

Re: Poll: What do you think about incentive structures in Cr

tealizard wrote:Oh, I was just referring to the comment in the other thread that used this language. I am unironically interested in whatever implojin might have said under other circumstances.

Perhaps you could post a link to that comment so we could know what you're talking about?
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

Blades Runner

Posts: 593

Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Monday, 9th December 2019, 17:14

Re: Poll: What do you think about incentive structures in Cr

Some are good, some are bad. Granular discussion of each and the reasons for it might be interesting.

when i was in middle and high school i was one of those annoying "debate me" atheists and just a giant asshole in general (as you do when you're in middle and high school (i'm still an asshole yes but not as much of one)) and one time i called this old guy a moron because he said he didn't believe in the big bang, and later he started talking about how when snow falls on the ground, it falls in neat smooth sheets instead of being all lumpy and random, and that science can't explain that


How long ago was this? IIRC the theory was proposed in the 20's, and science has long since settled that it must have happened in some form (with some issues like inflation etc still not having completely pinned down explanations). But some guy born during WW2 or something might not have kept up with science. More awkward was the "explanation" he gave you afterward.

To avoid such explanations we need coherent standards.
User avatar

Slime Squisher

Posts: 405

Joined: Sunday, 27th January 2019, 13:50

Post Monday, 9th December 2019, 17:22

Re: Poll: What do you think about incentive structures in Cr

Siegurt wrote:Perhaps you could post a link to that comment so we could know what you're talking about?


Thread, and page.
Direct quote:

Implojin wrote:man, I have so many thoughts on the topic of incentive structures in Crawl but this thread is bad
There is always something new to learn.

Slime Squisher

Posts: 368

Joined: Thursday, 11th April 2013, 21:07

Post Monday, 9th December 2019, 17:34

Re: Poll: What do you think about incentive structures in Cr

Okay, I'm writing a full post on this, but I'm probably going to put it in GDD and it will probably be a few days.

To me, this topic is fundamental to why Stone Soup is a bad game, and I'd prefer that the thread about it be one of good faith participation.


Here's an attempt at a working definition from my last draft:
(For the non-native english speakers here, what I mean by "incentive structures" is "the aspects of the game's ruleset which, when taken together, create incentives that shape player behavior".)

One summary might be that Crawl's incentive structures are ass-backwards, negatively impacting gameflow in such a jarring fashion that it's hard to play the game anymore, once you've seen it. There really is a lot to write about this; examples where individual rules and rule interactions create perverse incentives are so numerous in Crawl that it becomes work to individually cite them. It's a systemic issue with the game -- to me, it seems this was completely overlooked by Linley, and later the early DCSS team. Anyway, real post later.

edit: A lot of these problems are not new topics of discussion for the Tavern, and much of it is not worth rehashing. My perspective here, in treating this general class of issue as player behavioral incentivization problems, stems from my opinion that a lot of these issues with the game's usability tend to reduce down to Crawl's original game designer(s) obviously having had a massive blind spot for how players might actually interact with the game.

Obviously, some of that is always going to be subjective, but, y'know. You read stories of oldschool devs trying to appease Miyamoto to get their work onto the Famicom: Linley's Crawl would never have made that cut. Ever. It's just not playable enough.



P.S.: Slay The Spire is actually kind of a neat game. Thanks for the recommendation!
Last edited by Implojin on Monday, 9th December 2019, 18:54, edited 3 times in total.

For this message the author Implojin has received thanks: 2
powergame, tealizard

Spider Stomper

Posts: 241

Joined: Saturday, 29th October 2016, 17:41

Post Monday, 9th December 2019, 18:15

Re: Poll: What do you think about incentive structures in Cr

I think we need to go back to the days where people banged on plants endlessly to train up a new weapon.

For this message the author severen has received thanks: 3
Airwolf, duvessa, nago
User avatar

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 454

Joined: Thursday, 1st November 2018, 02:33

Post Monday, 9th December 2019, 19:47

Re: Poll: What do you think about incentive structures in Cr

Will look forward to reading.
This is where mechanical excellence and one-thousand four-hundred horsepower pays off.

Return to Crazy Yiuf's Corner

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests

cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.