No MP Regen with monsters in LOS


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Post Monday, 15th July 2019, 00:07

No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

Just something I thought about kiting. MP regeneration is an incentive to it. So what if there were no MP regeneration with enemies in sight? The MP pool could be made larger to compensate if it would weaken characters too much. It would be a nerf to Spirit Shield, but it would make Veh, Sif, and VS's mana bite more incisive.

However, MP regeneration can be an exciting factor, for example when you need that MP to kill that hobgoblin.

What are your thoughts? Maybe this could be a shtick for a particular species.
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Post Monday, 15th July 2019, 07:11

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

Yes I agree, it could be a nice mutation. And you could put it on a species. It might be interesting, but I can't think of a species that'd be particularly suitable. Also the effect will be relatively minor, especially with Sif, Vehm and staffs of energy in the game.

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Post Monday, 15th July 2019, 07:39

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

Let's add a somewhat symmetric mutation. "Every attack with melee/ranged weapon temporarily adds -1 slaying to PC which stays until no monsters are in view". Sounds crazy? IMHO it proves that the mutation from OP is not a good idea.
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Post Monday, 15th July 2019, 07:43

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

Not sure what's special about MP here. Kiting to restore HP works the same way.

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Post Monday, 15th July 2019, 08:07

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

There's already Slow Healing 1, which blocks hp regenerations when monsters are in LOS, which is one of the Ghoul mutations.
I imagine a mutation which blocks mp regeneration could work similarly.

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Post Monday, 15th July 2019, 08:11

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

petercordia wrote:There's already Slow Healing 1, which blocks hp regenerations when monsters are in LOS, which is one of the Ghoul mutations.
I imagine a mutation which blocks mp regeneration could work similarly.


I see I need to explain my point further. Blocked HP regeneration affects everyone, every character cares about getting wounded. Blocked MP regeneration does not affect everyone (berserkers don't care much, for instance). Blocked MP regeneration is not similar to blocked HP regeneration, it is similar to blocked ability to use melee/ranged weapon.
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Post Monday, 15th July 2019, 10:07

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
petercordia wrote:There's already Slow Healing 1, which blocks hp regenerations when monsters are in LOS, which is one of the Ghoul mutations.
I imagine a mutation which blocks mp regeneration could work similarly.


I see I need to explain my point further. Blocked HP regeneration affects everyone, every character cares about getting wounded. Blocked MP regeneration does not affect everyone (berserkers don't care much, for instance). Blocked MP regeneration is not similar to blocked HP regeneration, it is similar to blocked ability to use melee/ranged weapon.


You can't use a ranged weapon, when you are out of ammo... and generally the big RPG archetype difference between spellcaster and warrior is that the warrior has unlimited attacks, the spellcaster has a limited number of spells it can cast.
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Post Monday, 15th July 2019, 10:31

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

Shtopit wrote:You can't use a ranged weapon, when you are out of ammo... and generally the big RPG archetype difference between spellcaster and warrior is that the warrior has unlimited attacks, the spellcaster has a limited number of spells it can cast.


Let's not confuse 2 things:
1) number of ways to attack. Spellcaster has a limited number of spells it can cast (the spells should be memorized), warrior has a limited number of weapons it can use (they should be in inventory).
2) number of attacks. Warrior can attack indefinitely, spellcaster needs MP to be able to continue casting spells.

You are suggesting to make spellcaster unable to attack completely. Do you think it is a good idea to make warrior unable to attack completely? Why would it be a good idea for spellcaster especially considering that we already have at least 2 statuses for that (Silence and Confusion) which prevent PC from casting spells but still allow melee attacks.
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Post Monday, 15th July 2019, 10:41

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

And by the way if the suggestion is implemented, it will lead to greater amount of degenerative play, not to less. I will lure that single goblin 20 tiles away just to make sure that I will be able to regenerate MP after killing it.
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Post Monday, 15th July 2019, 11:30

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

I completely agree it would be bad if it was implemented for all species. But in Crawl there is room for species with funky characteristics. There are also mutations which are only bad for melee dudes (notably berserkitis).

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Post Monday, 15th July 2019, 12:30

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

petercordia wrote:There are also mutations which are only bad for melee dudes (notably berserkitis).

Temporarily losing ability to cast spells might work indeed. Idea from OP (losing ability to cast spells while monsters are in view) is similar to 100% berserkitis which is nonsense of course.
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Post Monday, 15th July 2019, 12:33

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

Regeneration over time mechanics are a basic flaw in crawl, but limiting these mechanics by monster LOS doesn't get you anywhere. There are still many ways to escape LOS permanently, stairs being only the most obvious.

To eliminate regeneration over time mechanics, you will need a new means of regenerating hp and mp. It should not be an item, like ambrosia, since this requires the player to carry something and use it. i am pretty well convinced that a satisfactory solution is impossible with dcss free range maps and dungeon structure. What you really need is structured levels without backtracking and with a clear concept of progression. Then you can attach regeneration to some kind of dungeon feature.
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Post Monday, 15th July 2019, 14:01

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

VeryAngryFelid wrote:You are suggesting to make spellcaster unable to attack completely.

This is a bit too much in the vacuum, I think. This is DCSS, land of backup weapons, Evo, and potions.

And in the OP I also wrote that MP pool could be enlarged to make up for the difference.

I don't get the comparison to warrior. You already can't cast fireball more than X times anyway. It's like saying, "Do you think warriors should have an attack point pool that they use up to swing their sword, and then have various turns in which they cannot attack because they're out of points and have to run around until a point regenerates?"

In case there was doubt, I meant (2).

However, the more I think about it, the less I am convinced about the advantages of removing MP regen, but for different reasons. It's very exciting to have to calculate the time until you can cast a certain spell. It adds a strategic layer. It's much better with certain characters, however, like Cheib ones that cannot run away and also have massive staying power from AC.

A new species could use it, though. It would be a challenge: you would have limited, but known resources.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:And by the way if the suggestion is implemented, it will lead to greater amount of degenerative play, not to less. I will lure that single goblin 20 tiles away just to make sure that I will be able to regenerate MP after killing it.


Isn't this already optimal play? When I start out a TeAE with 4 MP, I expect to end up killed if I don't lure everything one by one (and AE can hit more opponents at the same time).

I also wonder how many MP used in battle are regenerated and how many were in the pool at the start of combat.
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Post Monday, 15th July 2019, 14:12

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

Shtopit wrote:This is a bit too much in the vacuum, I think. This is DCSS, land of backup weapons, Evo, and potions.


Felid of Ru who sacrificed Evo and potions has something to tell you :)

And in the OP I also wrote that MP pool could be enlarged to make up for the difference.

What's the point? I assume it is a rare mutation. If you want to suggest increasing MP, just suggest it :)
Or do you mean the mutation will increase it?

I don't get the comparison to warrior. You already can't cast fireball more than X times anyway. It's like saying, "Do you think warriors should have an attack point pool that they use up to swing their sword, and then have various turns in which they cannot attack because they're out of points and have to run around until a point regenerates?"


Comparison to warrior is quite logical. Warrior is not limited, spellcaster is limited and then you suggest to limit it more except usually it is limited less because majority of spellcasters won't have this new mutation. So I think I don't get it either.

Isn't this already optimal play? When I start out a TeAE with 4 MP, I expect to end up killed if I don't lure everything one by one (and AE can hit more opponents at the same time).

It is optimal on D:1, later when you have 1 MP regen per turn you don't need luring that much.

I also wonder how many MP used in battle are regenerated and how many were in the pool at the start of combat.

Fortunately you can see MP regen rate in @ screen as far as I remember.
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Post Monday, 15th July 2019, 15:16

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

A felid will still be fast enough to leave and refill. So it would have to be a slowed felid etc.

I really wasn't thinking in terms of acquired mutations from e.g. shining eye when I wrote the post. I was thinking about a stable mutation that you carry around for the whole game, from beginning (character creation) to end. So now I understand the berserkitis post.

As I have already said, I am not envisioning this as a change to be applied to all species any more. But a species with this limitation would be like formicids who can't teleport, or any other limitation that distinguishes different species in Crawl. This ATM is the point of the limiting them more.

I haven't really thought about how this would work as a random mutation. It would be challenging, although not as much as teleportitis. The question is whether it would be fun. This is the sort of thing that I think is better to let the player choose, rather than having it forced randomly on him.
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Post Monday, 15th July 2019, 17:34

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

Shtopit wrote:The question is whether it would be fun.

So your choices with this theoretical species are: 1. Kill things in a way that doesn't depend on MP. 2. Obviate the mutation with very limited god and/or equipment choice (the typical DD route) 3. Over-empasize kiting (which is already fairly tedious) to ensure you never run out of MP and thereby Obviate the mutation.

Which boils down to "Ignore the mutation entirely" (it has no impact other than to reduce game-play choices), "Make it irrelevant with a very limited set of choices" (it reduces the variability in playing the species, making it less fun), or "Over-engage in an already boring mechanic" (makes individual game play more boring)

So no, it would not be fun. There's a limited and specific set of ways to get around the limitation, and they are boring. Further, the consequence for not trying to get around the limitation is "you use consumables or die" which puts it in the same category as any other emergency, but disguised as normal game-play. Which means it's *always optimal* to try to get around this limitation from a winning perspective. "Optimal and tedious" is pretty much the definition of "not fun".

Also I'd point out that "When a monster is in sight" is a bad metric, as I can make monsters disappear from LOS over and over again, even if they're following me closely, just by walking around a square, "walk around a square a bunch of times to regen your MP" isn't particularly fun *normally*, but extending that to 10x it's normal tedium isn't going to appeal to anyone (Not to mention that there's a compounding effect there, where the monster's HP will regen as well, which means you need to regen even more MP than you would normally to kill it, which at 10x the normal regen rate would add that much more time making it even more boring) That's a solvable problem ("When monsters were in sight within in the last 7 turns" would eliminate it, for example) But that's also a slight flaw in your proposal (even aside from the more fundamental ones)
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Post Monday, 15th July 2019, 17:36

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

FWIW, The inverse of that mutation "You *only* regen MP when monsters are in view" might have some appeal, particularly if the amount of regen was tied to the number and/or difficulty of said monsters.
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Post Monday, 15th July 2019, 17:49

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

Siegurt wrote:FWIW, The inverse of that mutation "You *only* regen MP when monsters are in view" might have some appeal, particularly if the amount of regen was tied to the number and/or difficulty of said monsters.

Thinking about it further, dragging a bunch of harmless creatures around to regen your MP would probably be just as annoying, I doubt there'd be a way to balance that so it'd be workable and/or worthwhile without just being an interface screw on being able to use 5 to rest.
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Post Thursday, 18th July 2019, 16:04

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

Siegurt wrote:
Siegurt wrote:FWIW, The inverse of that mutation "You *only* regen MP when monsters are in view" might have some appeal, particularly if the amount of regen was tied to the number and/or difficulty of said monsters.

Thinking about it further, dragging a bunch of harmless creatures around to regen your MP would probably be just as annoying, I doubt there'd be a way to balance that so it'd be workable and/or worthwhile without just being an interface screw on being able to use 5 to rest.


Link it to HD.
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Post Thursday, 18th July 2019, 16:17

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

"Pets, huh, didn't think of that"? Seriously?
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Post Thursday, 18th July 2019, 16:19

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

delarado wrote:
Siegurt wrote:
Siegurt wrote:FWIW, The inverse of that mutation "You *only* regen MP when monsters are in view" might have some appeal, particularly if the amount of regen was tied to the number and/or difficulty of said monsters.

Thinking about it further, dragging a bunch of harmless creatures around to regen your MP would probably be just as annoying, I doubt there'd be a way to balance that so it'd be workable and/or worthwhile without just being an interface screw on being able to use 5 to rest.


Link it to HD.

HD is not a good representation of threat level (Nor is XP given, FWIW)
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Post Thursday, 18th July 2019, 16:36

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

tealizard wrote:"Pets, huh, didn't think of that"? Seriously?

Well, considering I spotted the flaw in the brief fleeting thought I had dropped up there, and posted a response pointing out my own mistake in a very short interval thereafter (short enough it seems unlikely that anyone actually saw the post before the response was posted) that seems like a harsh characterization.

Occasionally I just post something that pops into my head without thinking it through all the way. In this case it was something that popped into my head between hitting 'submit' on the prior post, and having the page refresh, then after posting it, I thought about it for a few seconds, and was like "oh, no wait, that doesn't work at all does it" and posted a reply pointing out it's flaws.

Not *every* post I put on these forums is self-moderated and evaluated for cohesiveness and thoughtfulness before I hit 'submit', I strive to make that the majority, but nobody is perfect. That response came across as a bit of petty sarcasm, which, if true, is just kind of a sad response.
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Post Thursday, 18th July 2019, 17:30

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

That's a pretty basic error, but it seems to me the thing to do would've been to delete it rather than elaborate on it and get into a chain of responses to it (including a defense of the original comment!). I will decline to comment on your general posture in this response.
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Post Thursday, 18th July 2019, 18:52

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

tealizard wrote:That's a pretty basic error, but it seems to me the thing to do would've been to delete it rather than elaborate on it and get into a chain of responses to it (including a defense of the original comment!). I will decline to comment on your general posture in this response.

That presumes the comment *brings no value to the discussion* a flawed idea doesn't have no value at all, even if we think through all possible avenues and ultimately discard it, that process has value. If I felt that the comment had no value at all, I might have deleted it (The delete button does disappear after some time, so I'm not sure it would've been available, and I certainly didn't bother to look in this case)

That being said, I feel like the mechanism would be interesting *if was possible to make it work in the game a non-broken way* I don't see a way to make that happen, but that doesn't mean someone else can't possibly come up with an idea that would. Walking into a combat with no mana, and being able to gain mana only during a combat, more mana being available during more dangerous combats, would actually invert some of the usual incentives to lure and kite things, and hence (if it could possibly work) would work as a counter for the typical optimal tactics.

I don't believe it's possible to implement non-brokenly, but *if it could work* I think it would be neat. So, I don't see any reason that I shouldn't let other people take a crack at it, there's no reason to hoard ideas, just because I don't see a path to take them to completion. This isn't the place for completed, developed, cohesively well-designed ideas, this is CYC, where throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks is fine.
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Post Thursday, 18th July 2019, 20:03

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

tealizard wrote:That's a pretty basic error, but it seems to me the thing to do would've been to delete it rather than elaborate on it and get into a chain of responses to it

If you think so, you should have said so in the first place, instead of just being a dick.
Now you're trying to add context to make it appear as if your "Seriously?" post wasn't pure aggression.
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Post Friday, 19th July 2019, 00:55

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

implojin, enjoy
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Post Friday, 19th July 2019, 01:14

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

???

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Post Friday, 19th July 2019, 01:26

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

Coming back to the "mana regen only with monsters in LoS", the way to go would be to tie it to monster difficulty (or tension). It seems that it would be similar to just having mana on kills, which is not a bad idea in itself.

I was thinking of tweaking DD where they don't regen at all (HP and MP), and get all their regen from kills.

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Post Friday, 19th July 2019, 21:42

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

tealizard wrote:Regeneration over time mechanics are a basic flaw in crawl . [...] What you really need is structured levels without backtracking and with a clear concept of progression. Then you can attach regeneration to some kind of dungeon feature.

This is slightly veering off topic, but the card-based roguelike slay the spire does this well. You don't heal in battles (or after them) but every so often on the path you're taking there are rest sites which let you regenerate a % of your max health. You can also get abilities which do let you heal small amounts in battles, but the default rules are no healing until you find a rest site. For that to work you have clear paths which contain a fixed amount of fights/other events/rest areas. Open floor dungeons like DCSS can't really copy the system.

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Post Saturday, 20th July 2019, 01:48

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

Doesn't Spelunky have damsels which you can rescue, which increases your health? So, perhaps this kind of health regen mechanic can work in randomly generated games. (I haven't played Spelunky much).

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Post Thursday, 25th July 2019, 15:47

Re: No MP Regen with monsters in LOS

A species that does the ghoul thing with mana could be strong or weak depending on its details. You could even make it never regain mana normally and have to absorb it from enemies like food. It'd be hard to balance with spirit shield in the game though, not to mention this would let you spike mana for casting constantly if it's too easy to gain mana from enemies.

Still, it could work conceptually and would be distinct from current species. Could always nerf its aptitudes down if it's too strong.

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