The Tavern

I mean, it is logical for stuff like demons and orcs to have an intense desire to kill you. But why you are getting attacked by Angels, Elves, Draconians, Nagas, Dwarves, and even nomal, sane beings like Dowan and Duvessa? Like, everyone - animals, humans, constructs, weird abominations, they are working as a team to strike you down. Why?

This is a good question and I look forward to the answers but ...
... Dowan and Duvessa are *not* normal or sane!

Airwolf wrote:This is a good question and I look forward to the answers but ...
... Dowan and Duvessa are *not* normal or sane!

Why? They are just a pair of twin elves. One is a cocky magician, and another is a serious warrior. They seem completely sane to me.

Zap-zapper wrote:Why everything wants you dead?

Because they get XP for killing your char.

I always thought that dungeon collapses when you escape with orb. That's why everyone wants to kill you - they want to live. Also it explains why you should not fight during orb run - they will die anyway.

Zap-zapper wrote:I mean, it is logical for stuff like demons and orcs to have an intense desire to kill you. But why you are getting attacked by Angels, Elves, Draconians, Nagas, Dwarves, and even nomal, sane beings like Dowan and Duvessa? Like, everyone - animals, humans, constructs, weird abominations, they are working as a team to strike you down. Why?

oh sure, if some crazy fucker with a sword, a suit of mail, and no pants invaded YOUR home and started stealing all your shit i'm sure you'd just be perfectly calm and find a way to resolve the situation peacefully

duvessa wrote:
Zap-zapper wrote:I mean, it is logical for stuff like demons and orcs to have an intense desire to kill you. But why you are getting attacked by Angels, Elves, Draconians, Nagas, Dwarves, and even nomal, sane beings like Dowan and Duvessa? Like, everyone - animals, humans, constructs, weird abominations, they are working as a team to strike you down. Why?
oh sure, if some crazy fucker with a sword, a suit of mail, and no pants invaded YOUR home and started stealing all your shit i'm sure you'd just be perfectly calm and find a way to resolve the situation peacefully

The only solution to a bad guy with a sword is a good guy with a sword, amirite

hermbot wrote:
duvessa wrote:
Zap-zapper wrote:I mean, it is logical for stuff like demons and orcs to have an intense desire to kill you. But why you are getting attacked by Angels, Elves, Draconians, Nagas, Dwarves, and even nomal, sane beings like Dowan and Duvessa? Like, everyone - animals, humans, constructs, weird abominations, they are working as a team to strike you down. Why?
oh sure, if some crazy fucker with a sword, a suit of mail, and no pants invaded YOUR home and started stealing all your shit i'm sure you'd just be perfectly calm and find a way to resolve the situation peacefully

The only solution to a bad guy with a sword is a good guy with a sword, amirite

im clearly a girl

I think you are a copper sent to retrieve a stolen item. Those guys are the mob, that's why they're all on the same team.

Zap-zapper wrote:I mean, it is logical for stuff like demons and orcs to have an intense desire to kill you. But why you are getting attacked by Angels, Elves, Draconians, Nagas, Dwarves, and even nomal, sane beings like Dowan and Duvessa? Like, everyone - animals, humans, constructs, weird abominations, they are working as a team to strike you down. Why?

You do realise that your character is basically a serial-killer invading their home and stealing everything they can grab, right?

But it's them who attack you! And they cooperate together...like, why the hell hounds, elves, trolls, dragons and a pack of crocodiles march together to kill you? Why demons ain't attacking anyone except you?

While I mostly agree with everyone else, I would like to see Demons buffed significantly and made hostile to all non-demons . . . and maybe other demons sometimes. Demons summoned by mobs would occasionally be hostile to everything too. It just seems like it would be fun.

I don't have a problem with everything being allied against you (they're all under the spell of Zot to protect the Orb or whatever) but what always bugged me is no-one is hostile to other adventurers trying to get the Orb like Dowan and Duvessa or Donald

Zap-zapper wrote:But it's them who attack you! And they cooperate together...like, why the hell hounds, elves, trolls, dragons and a pack of crocodiles march together to kill you? Why demons ain't attacking anyone except you?

It's not them who attack you if you wait for them to take the last step or mdart them on sight.

We know the outside world will come to an end within your lifespan. I theorise that 1) the Orb is necessary to avert this catastrophe (otherwise, why didn't you just stay home and get smashed) and 2) that the removal of the Orb from the Realm of Zot will instead inflict this catastrophe on the dungeon and its associated realms. This is what unites every monster in solidarity against you.

I will say that one of my absolute favorite little flavor pieces in nethack and SLASH'EM was the elf-orc and angel-demon hatred. It was a nice feature that these two groups would rather fight each other than you and that they would fight to the death even if they were aligned to the player!

I think Crawl could benefit from a similar system, at least between angels-demons where they fight each other on the spot. To me at least it feels like it breaks the narrative a bit when Mara and Mennas put their differences aside and team up against the player. Unless you are undead, daemonic (or a follower of Beogh!

), Mennas should prioritize demons (and orcs) over the player. This is part of the reason why I wasn't happy with the decision to remove pacification of holy monsters dependent on piety with one of the good gods. It didn't come up often, or in any meaningful way, but it added a level of flavor to the game when a devout worshiper of, say Zin was not attacked on sight by angels in service to Zin and TSO.

Sometimes its easy to forget that the Flavor text really does add a lot to this game and makes it more engaging to explore. HO of Beogh is one of my favorite combos, not because its particularly good past the mid game, not because the interface starts to tediously deteriorate with orc allies swarming around covering up the floor tiles so you can't see where anything is. Rather I enjoy the class so much for all of the flavor text. The orcs have personality, they say things like "character, you're my only friend" or "don't worry character, it is an honor to die for Beogh", or even "I don't want to die". In a similar vein, there was a hell portal vault that really resonated with me, it consisted of a hallway with dwarf skeletons, plate armor and weapons strewn about- leading to a portal to hell. For a minute it felt as though I was walking through the ruins of Moria, the dorfs had dug too deep! People notice things like that, and its part of what makes exploring DCSS such a rewarding experience. I also enjoy that monsters and unique will trash talk your character.

Having the enemies interact with each other makes them more real and sheds light on their own wars and allegiances outside of the player. I personally would welcome back good gods pacifying angelic beings at high piety levels. I would support orcs and elves attacking each other on sight. In fact, I think it would be an amazing experience for a new player exploring to come across an orc and an elf band engaged in a heated battle. It also opens the door for some really cool altar vaults, like a Yred-TSO vault with a Profane Servitor and an Angel locked in a death battle. Crawl has amazing mechanics, and I do enjoy them, but its also important to add depth to the rich history of the dungeon and its inhabitants.

akaean wrote:I will say that one of my absolute favorite little flavor pieces in nethack and SLASH'EM was the elf-orc and angel-demon hatred. It was a nice feature that these two groups would rather fight each other than you and that they would fight to the death even if they were aligned to the player!

...that feature isn't in nethack...or in slash'em to my knowledge

duvessa wrote:
akaean wrote:I will say that one of my absolute favorite little flavor pieces in nethack and SLASH'EM was the elf-orc and angel-demon hatred. It was a nice feature that these two groups would rather fight each other than you and that they would fight to the death even if they were aligned to the player!
...that feature isn't in nethack...or in slash'em to my knowledge

I'm nearly certain that that happened in the varient of SLASH'EM that I played. I am probably mistaken about its occurrence in nethack, its been a long time since I've played vanilla nethack. I know for a fact that it was in Unnethack and I'm pretty sure the version of SLASH'EM i played most recently had incorporated that particular patch.

angels and demons fight in unnethack, they absolutely do not in nethack

That's the "Grudge" patch. It doesn't exist in vanilla nethack.

I think the answer could be that the designers want this to be an esport and prioritize that over everything else. It's all about the game "balance" and preventing the player from gaming the system by exploiting competitive mobs.

Seems like the option to have "natural enemies" fight each other is still a possibility within Crawl with the Wand of Enslavement.
Could make for an interesting challenge in a tournament or competition.

On a sillier side, don't know how much Evo is needed though to have Dowan fight Duvessa to the death?!?
That could make an interesting screen capture.

The Tavern

Why everything wants you dead?

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