Concerning Vp Rework: Three Undead's a Crowd


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Post Thursday, 5th April 2018, 20:30

Concerning Vp Rework: Three Undead's a Crowd

There's been some talk about making Vp simpler, and I think that it would be a good thing. However, if the intention is to keep Vp as a species that jumps between life and undeath, and the intent is to simplify the numerous grades into two distinct states, then it's worth asking: how similar to an already existing species would the undead side be? Could this be redundant?

So I began wondering if it would be possible to merge a couple of species of the Gh - Vp - Mu triangle.

Gh + Vp would be similar to Hellmonk's proposal in GDR.

Mu + Vp would essentially create a species with free necromutation.

Gh + Mu would create a species with something like: no food clock, optional eating flesh to heal (and maybe to cure confusion?, no Gh rot), no potions, rF-, medium stats (S 10-I 8-D 7?), Ghoul apts except Mu spellcasting.

Hard to say what Vp's undead form would then become in this last case, possibly a more extreme form of Mu or Gh: e.g. Vp "Gh" could get large claws and a clock that needs kills to avoid detrimental effects, with also song of slaying always active, or "Mu" could get +8 MR level and the equivalent of a negative energy breath; could have a clock too. If there isn't a food clock determining a reason to switch between states, something else should motivate the player.
Maybe both forms could be available from the living form.

The main point I wanted to make, anyway, was that, if the undead park gets two relatively similar species and a third one that is fairly different, some could be merged to obviate the problem.
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Slime Squisher

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Post Thursday, 5th April 2018, 21:24

Re: Concerning Vp Rework: Three Undead's a Crowd

I wouldn't count on anything happening to Mu anytime soon -- they're intended as Stone Soup's hard difficulty setting, and a perennial favorite of players who've decided that the game is too easy.

Re: That other thread: It's an interesting read on how current players view the differences between species, but there's some noise over there too.

Personally I wouldn't have a problem with axing all species that are differentiated primarily through aptitudes, axing aptitudes completely, and differentiating species solely through their unique abilities/challenge conducts.

It's a tricky thing, axing species in baseline Stone Soup: The game has no difficulty setting, save for species, and to a lesser extent background and god choice. Arguments for trimming the species list boil down to removing "officially sanctioned" challenge conducts from the game; space on the species select screen in console mode notwithstanding.

I think that when viewed from this perspective there's good reason to keep as many well-differentiated species in the game as possible to increase replay value, but "well-differentiated" is the tricky part. Aptitudes don't do a good job of this, and belong on the chopping block in my opinion. (Sure, there's a valid argument there about steering newer players into trying out different playstyles, but they can also be steered into that by finding some cool loot on D:1.)

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Post Friday, 6th April 2018, 12:40

Re: Concerning Vp Rework: Three Undead's a Crowd

It's a tricky thing, axing species in baseline Stone Soup: The game has no difficulty setting, save for species, and to a lesser extent background and god choice.


Maybe aptitudes and level stat bonuses could be moved from species into something new like "class"?

So you get to pick
* Species: determines hp/mp/xp/mr and gimmicks
After getting rid of aptitudes, merge/axe uninteresting species, but keep one or two "easy" but ungimmicky ones around.

* Class: determines skill aptitudes and stat bonus (high>good>average>bad>low)
Warrior: high fighting+weapon+defense, low magic
Zealot: high invo
Reaver: good weapon+defense+magic (to be bikeshedded back to Warrior-mage?)
Mage: high magic, low fighting+weapon+defense
Tourist: bad/low everything (challenge class)

* Background: determines starting kit (unchanged)

The idea is
* New players can get the hang of basic crawling by e.g. playing a MiWaFi.
* When you want some variation, trying out a gimmicky species isn't too bad, because you can still pick a decent class+background.
* If you want more challenge, you can pick a increasingly mismatched class+background combinations and harder species.

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Post Tuesday, 1st May 2018, 22:12

Re: Concerning Vp Rework: Three Undead's a Crowd

rigrig wrote:* Class: determines skill aptitudes and stat bonus (high>good>average>bad>low)
Warrior: high fighting+weapon+defense, low magic
Zealot: high invo
Reaver: good weapon+defense+magic (to be bikeshedded back to Warrior-mage?)
Mage: high magic, low fighting+weapon+defense
Tourist: bad/low everything (challenge class)


This is basically taking 27+ species aptitude lists and reducing it to 5. There's a lot lost here; is there a good transmuter class? A good stabber class? Who's the best with evocations?

It's true that aptitudes themselves aren't super impactful, but it's still nice to be able to find a race that is well suited for a playstyle. Classic example is SpEn, with high short blades/stealth/hexes, lends itself to the enchanter build. Also while you didn't provide exact figures, it sounds like reaver is just generally good in everything. That could of course be tweaked with actual numbers, though.

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