Is this what the game needs?


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Spider Stomper

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Post Friday, 30th March 2018, 03:01

Is this what the game needs?

Many people have voiced their concerns recently that the game is losing popularity. I propose that this may be because of the removal of a decent amount of the game's content.

Every patch, there are 2 main things that change: the game's options for characters, and the game's content. While the game has been removing player options and offering new ones at approximately the same rate (trading rods for wands, reworking evokers, new race, god, and spell options), game branches that have been streamlined have not had a similar replacement. Lair and it's branches have been trimmed, many monsters have been merged or removed, and little has replaced them. In terms of new branches over the last few patches, we got The Desolation of Salt.

I believe that some additional early game content should be added to balance this, possibly a new branch that could contain a new set of themed monsters and runes. A new area to explore that can actually generate every game seems like the new set of content that the game needs.

I would recommend (yes I am completely unqualified for this but this is my idea) something that spawns in the D12-D14 range, similar to vaults, that contains a reward at the bottom similar to the loot from the hall of blades. I would also offer monsters that are fairly dangerous but offer mediocre XP, to make the main motivator the loot rather than the XP sacks like Vault.

Additionally, a new set of later-game support monsters that could roam Vaults/Depths, Pan, and Hell that are not demons (similar to spiders) could also be interesting. This would add more depth for those that relish in the late-game, though given how short the average crawl player's run is, this might not be needed.
I'm with tasonir on this one.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 30th March 2018, 04:52

Re: Is this what the game needs?

The last branch that DCSS removed was Hall of Blades. Before that was Hive, and that's it. No other branches have been removed (unless you count branches that were experiments that never made it into a stable release, like Forest and Dwarven Halls). Shoals, Spider, and portal vaults were added.
Midn8 wrote:many monsters have been merged or removed, and little has replaced them
This is not true. Approximations of the number of monsters in each version (entries in mon-data.h with axed and dummy monsters not counted):
0.4: 357
0.5: 374
0.6: 411
0.7: 431
0.8: 490
0.9: 495
0.10: 492
0.11: 502
0.12: 526
0.13: 548
0.14: 554
0.15: 528
0.16: 531
0.17: 527
0.18: 524
0.19: 526
0.20: 524
0.21: 524

The number of monsters crept steadily upward, peaked in 0.13 and 0.14 and then essentially settled on about 525. (This count still includes plants, sensed monster markers, and the like, but does not include monsters that were removed, which is what mainly matters in this context). The devs have not been in a monster-removal-without-replacement frenzy, the last time you could claim that was 0.15 and the number of monsters is still much larger than it was in 0.10, let alone 0.5 or Linley's Dungeon Crawl.

I am curious about who is claiming that DCSS is losing popularity, and what they base that claim on. Sequell queries suggest that the number of active online accounts has pretty much only been increasing, though of course there are users with multiple accounts and there's no way to count offline players.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 30th March 2018, 06:52

Re: Is this what the game needs?

duvessa wrote:The last branch that DCSS removed was Hall of Blades. Before that was Hive, and that's it. No other branches have been removed (unless you count branches that were experiments that never made it into a stable release, like Forest and Dwarven Halls). Shoals, Spider, and portal vaults were added.
Midn8 wrote:many monsters have been merged or removed, and little has replaced them
This is not true. Approximations of the number of monsters in each version (entries in mon-data.h with axed and dummy monsters not counted):
0.4: 357
0.5: 374
0.6: 411
0.7: 431
0.8: 490
0.9: 495
0.10: 492
0.11: 502
0.12: 526
0.13: 548
0.14: 554
0.15: 528
0.16: 531
0.17: 527
0.18: 524
0.19: 526
0.20: 524
0.21: 524

The number of monsters crept steadily upward, peaked in 0.13 and 0.14 and then essentially settled on about 525. (This count still includes plants, sensed monster markers, and the like, but does not include monsters that were removed, which is what mainly matters in this context). The devs have not been in a monster-removal-without-replacement frenzy, the last time you could claim that was 0.15 and the number of monsters is still much larger than it was in 0.10, let alone 0.5 or Linley's Dungeon Crawl.

I am curious about who is claiming that DCSS is losing popularity, and what they base that claim on. Sequell queries suggest that the number of active online accounts has pretty much only been increasing, though of course there are users with multiple accounts and there's no way to count offline players.

I saw someone else recently claim the *forums* were "dying" or unpopular, but I don't know what that was based on either...Pure confirmation bias maybe?
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Friday, 30th March 2018, 09:58

Re: Is this what the game needs?

It would be interesting to know the downloads of the local installer per version.

To me, anyway, it seems like the game should be attracting new players. Search function, easier and less enraging inventory management, skill targets... The book library will also be awesome. Plus there have been new species added, and I think that that's more important than adding monsters.

New portal vaults in the early dungeon would be cool. Someone would need to come up with something and program it, however.
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Friday, 30th March 2018, 11:16

Re: Is this what the game needs?

Siegurt wrote:I saw someone else recently claim the *forums* were "dying" or unpopular, but I don't know what that was based on either...Pure confirmation bias maybe?


The better explanation for that is Mantis registration keeps getting disabled for periods of time (at least, it was the last time I glanced at ##crawl-dev). This is because it is getting hammered by bots and anti-bot mechanisms are failing to keep them out. I think many potential new registrees hit that roadblock and don't bother trying to come back at another time.

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Snake Sneak

Posts: 111

Joined: Saturday, 10th March 2018, 18:00

Post Friday, 30th March 2018, 15:08

Re: Is this what the game needs?

Floodkiller wrote:The better explanation for that is Mantis registration keeps getting disabled for periods of time (at least, it was the last time I glanced at ##crawl-dev). This is because it is getting hammered by bots and anti-bot mechanisms are failing to keep them out. I think many potential new registrees hit that roadblock and don't bother trying to come back at another time.


As someone who had to lurk nearly a whole month before being allowed to create an account recently, yes, this is definitely a large part of it.

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Spider Stomper

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Post Friday, 30th March 2018, 20:55

Re: Is this what the game needs?

PseudoLoneWolf wrote:
Floodkiller wrote:The better explanation for that is Mantis registration keeps getting disabled for periods of time (at least, it was the last time I glanced at ##crawl-dev). This is because it is getting hammered by bots and anti-bot mechanisms are failing to keep them out. I think many potential new registrees hit that roadblock and don't bother trying to come back at another time.


As someone who had to lurk nearly a whole month before being allowed to create an account recently, yes, this is definitely a large part of it.


I have been unaware of this issue, and this is actually the most likely cause of the perceived drop in popularity on the forums. But online it feels like the active player count is dropping. Could just be my schedule shifting in hindsight though.
I'm with tasonir on this one.

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 139

Joined: Saturday, 10th January 2015, 22:27

Post Saturday, 31st March 2018, 00:09

Re: Is this what the game needs?

Midn8 wrote:
PseudoLoneWolf wrote:
Floodkiller wrote:The better explanation for that is Mantis registration keeps getting disabled for periods of time (at least, it was the last time I glanced at ##crawl-dev). This is because it is getting hammered by bots and anti-bot mechanisms are failing to keep them out. I think many potential new registrees hit that roadblock and don't bother trying to come back at another time.


As someone who had to lurk nearly a whole month before being allowed to create an account recently, yes, this is definitely a large part of it.


I have been unaware of this issue, and this is actually the most likely cause of the perceived drop in popularity on the forums. But online it feels like the active player count is dropping. Could just be my schedule shifting in hindsight though.

I'd guess that a little of the same is true for online play, if for slightly different reasons. For instance, I know a couple of people in my area who've tried Crawl who stuck to offline after a game or two, because online play is horribly laggy for them. And it can be much more convenient to have an offline version to play whenever you're in the mood, as opposed to needing a good internet connection. (Plus, at least for me, I find the offline interface more comfortable and useful than the online). So there may be an uptick in interest, even if there don't seem to be as many people playing online.
Last edited by Aean on Saturday, 31st March 2018, 01:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Snake Sneak

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Post Saturday, 31st March 2018, 01:28

Re: Is this what the game needs?

I also pretty exclusively play offline, it lags less and I like being able to see my inventory in the sidebar. If webtiles were changed to just match the interface of offline, I'd play webtiles all the time. I don't understand why they're different.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 388

Joined: Monday, 18th August 2014, 20:04

Post Saturday, 31st March 2018, 02:13

Re: Is this what the game needs?

But online it feels like the active player count is dropping.


I don't think there's any generalizations to be drawn, see: !lg * s=month(end) -graph (the peaks are tournament months).

If webtiles were changed to just match the interface of offline, I'd play webtiles all the time. I don't understand why they're different.


They're written in completely different ways with different technologies, one is sdl/opengl rendering, one is done in javascript over websockets. Patches that contribute to bringing them more into line are welcome (though not very easy); but be aware that we also regularly get the opposite request -- webtiles players asking why offline tiles can't be more like webtiles.
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Zot Zealot

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Post Saturday, 31st March 2018, 03:07

Re: Is this what the game needs?

It's probably expected that DCSS becomes more niche over time, because the game's basic structure is ageing and that cannot be changed. But I don't think changes like pair being shortened from 8 to 6 levels is "reducing content". Nothing was removed, the existing content was just concentrated into less time.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 119

Joined: Monday, 5th October 2015, 06:17

Post Saturday, 31st March 2018, 06:51

Re: Is this what the game needs?

advil wrote:
But online it feels like the active player count is dropping.


I don't think there's any generalizations to be drawn, see: !lg * s=month(end) -graph (the peaks are tournament months).


Games per month is a reasonable proxy for players per month, but let's look at actual players per month too: !lg * s=month(end) x=cdist(name) -graph does indeed look similar, but a bit flatter. Both still seem to be on an upwards trend.

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Spider Stomper

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Location: Germany

Post Saturday, 31st March 2018, 12:08

Re: Is this what the game needs?

popular/unpopular: I wouldn't play this game (most likely) if millions would crowd it.
Popularity isn't a 100%-metric whether a game is good or not.
It could also be a metric for how easily the game hands out a "You're such a good player !"-certificate.

I'm a programmer and at least by some (not all) standards also a good player (signiture.)
This should put me into a good position to judge whether a change in the game is good/bad/..

When people in my chat confront me with what the next possible damage done to the game looks like (I don't play trunk) i think a bit about it.
And most often my judgement is: "This is not going to work. Too difficult"

So far my judgement about features I haven't seen has been wrong most of the time.
Which means: Devs...well done.


New content: the content has to be meaningful to a broad variety of species/skills.
Try a weak combo and the old content might be 'new' to you.
It certainly is for me.

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