New fork: dcss-spicy


If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it belongs here. Also, come here if you just need to get hammered.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 12th March 2018, 07:44

Re: New fork: dcss-spicy

tasonir wrote:My character lost horns, but it picked up teleportitis. In good news I do at least also have rMut (the mutation) so my mutations haven't been changing much anymore. If you ever wanted to see a level 40 character, here you go


  Code:
Health: 261/263    AC: 31    Str: 40    XL:     40   Next: 54%
Magic:  24/54      EV: 29    Int: 36    God:    Cheibriados [******]
Gold:   14133      SH: 38    Dex: 30    Spells: 12/81 levels left


Well, it is not too impressive IMHO, especially for Chei. Here is XL 27 Ha (cannot use large shields) of Makhleb who died in Zot due to reckless play, disabled "more" and probably extra 30% damage from torment (I played so recklessly that I didn't even notice confusion state and my low HP until too late:
  Code:
Health: -11/220    AC: 49    Str: 31    XL:     27
Magic:  0/30       EV: 35    Int: 11    God:    Makhleb [******]
Gold:   3599       SH: 21    Dex: 25    Spells: 25/26 levels left


It even had spirit shield too :)
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 12th March 2018, 21:31

Re: New fork: dcss-spicy

My level 40 character ultimately died in a somewhat expected way: it was a poorly set up character for handling Ziggs, but I was too lazy to grind low density areas (pandemonium) for hours until it became a more properly-configured zigg character. I decided to dive in to the second zigg anyways, and then died, mostly to my carelessness than the above "character wasn't designed to be a zigg character from the start" problem. Ran into melee on a spider floor, got held in webs and corroded, and took enough damage to lose all my mana and not have any way to escape. Guardian spirit, while incredibly strong just about everywhere, can be a big problem in a ziggurat.

What I'm really trying to get at though, is you don't actually get very much from player level: hp, mana, and MR is basically it. The hp/mana is great, don't get me wrong, and a level 40 VS (+5 MR per level) doesn't even need an MR item anymore. But it doesn't make you really all that much stronger than a level 27, especially if there's torment in the area.

If I was going to do this zigg/mass leveling idea again, I'd probably either A: go caster + necromutation, or B: take a strong physical species and still learn level 9 spells: Naga hybrid, or something like statue troll + shatter.

I know there's also some pretty good gargoyle ziggurat builds, but I'm not all that familiar with them personally. Low HP races do get a lot better at level 30+, but I'd also like to see something like a troll with 600 hp, which is certainly reachable in statue form.

@jeremygurr: how does throwing ammo work? I know you said the player can throw stones infinitely - is it possible to throw better items (javelins, large rocks) indefinitely? If so, large rock throwing would probably be insane, but I think throwing is currently set up to only allow stones as infinite?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 12th March 2018, 22:47

Re: New fork: dcss-spicy

Seems like my above assumption is correct: you only have infinite stones - large rocks, javelins, etc are all limited. This is probably fine.

Actual problem: the unlimited stones option doesn't seem to work with autofight_throw = true set in the rc file. This should allow you to throw stones with tab as long as nothing is in melee range (otherwise it reverts to doing a melee attack). This works fine as long as you have actual ammo (stones, large rocks, or anything), but not if you have fake stones (it then walks you towards the monster). Essentially, with autofight_throw set to true, it needs to recognize an empty quiver as a valid stone-throwing setup.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 12th March 2018, 23:14

Re: New fork: dcss-spicy

Also while loading webtiles, you can briefly see the right hand of the screen load before the main map loads. At the bottom of this is the text "Last ouch" (I have show_extra_numbers = true). I'm guessing that the intended space to show damage is actually there, but then gets covered by the minimap/monster list which are covering it? Even if that last part isn't true, it's at least attempting to draw the last ouch line enough that I did notice it.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 13th March 2018, 06:11

Re: New fork: dcss-spicy

I'd suggest changing unlimited ammo to use at least tomahawks. I won characters with arrows and bolts, they were very powerful all game. Character with sling bullets was really underpowered middle game because of low base damage and lack of fustibalus (wasted 3 scrolls of acquirement trying to get one), I basically felt like I am playing a berserker with spear again, who can stay forever in fight due to crazy defense and I immediately quit a throwing character with stones as soon as I realized I will need to press tab even more than in the game with slinger.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 13th March 2018, 08:13

Re: New fork: dcss-spicy

  Code:
## Unlimited summons: (unlimited_summons=true)
+   - summoned creature cap increased to 20
+   - most summoning spells cost more mp to cast: level 1 costs 1 (like before), level 2 costs 4, level 3 costs 9, level 4 costs 16, etc.


I think it makes level 3+ summoning useless. And level 1-2 summoning becomes useless before Lair too.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 13th March 2018, 21:16

Re: New fork: dcss-spicy

does dragon's call cost 81 mana? I mean, it is possible to reach 81 mana, but that seems a bit harsh. If you really wanted to increase the mana I'd add something like a flat 50% cost and round down:

Level 1 is 1
level 2 is 3
level 3 is 4
level 4 is 6
...
level 9 is 13.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 13th March 2018, 21:46

Re: New fork: dcss-spicy

Having played a bit more with no_spellpower_cap, what it really does is remove the cap from spells that were previously limited to <100 power. This can be a huge buff to some spells such as sandblast or stone arrow (I'm playing an EE). Normally sandblast caps out at 50 spellpower which is roughly 41 max damage (2d20.67). It's fairly easy to have it at 100 spell power a few floors down and then it's dealing 2d37 (max ~74), which makes it more than powerful enough to continue using all the way through the mid game. Talk about mana efficiency! I just wish it had slightly more range. It does still apply AC three times, but still, it's twice the damage of non-no_spellpower_cap, so it's quite high. It scales in damage faster than stone arrow does. You might actually roll enough damage to punch through that enemy AC now...

Also due to the ammo always mulching, so it appears in larger numbers, I have 500+ stones :)

Edit: I have now found Punk (before lair, no less) so I can remove monster's AC. After corrosion, almost nothing can take more than 2 sandblasts. Might not hold up into the late game but it's laughable how little mana it takes to kill things.

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Post Wednesday, 14th March 2018, 06:32

Re: New fork: dcss-spicy

tasonir wrote:does dragon's call cost 81 mana? I mean, it is possible to reach 81 mana, but that seems a bit harsh. If you really wanted to increase the mana I'd add something like a flat 50% cost and round down:

Level 1 is 1
level 2 is 3
level 3 is 4
level 4 is 6
...
level 9 is 13.
I don't get why MP cost should be increased. When I play a Su I summon 3 Ice Beasts, lightning spire, golem, then one of them dies and I summon them again. I stop casting because either I am out of MP or there is no room to place a summon, summon cap is rarely a concern.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 14th March 2018, 08:05

Re: New fork: dcss-spicy

VeryAngryFelid wrote:I don't get why MP cost should be increased. When I play a Su I summon 3 Ice Beasts, lightning spire, golem, then one of them dies and I summon them again. I stop casting because either I am out of MP or there is no room to place a summon, summon cap is rarely a concern.

Without summon cap, you can summon several lightning spires, right? Isn't this insanely good? They would kill everything which is not immune to electricity. Like an okblob fort but requires only MP. If they cost 25 MP each, this seems reasonable. With 5 or 7 MP cost... just absurd imo.

Was lightning spire already nerfed?
DCSS: 80: ...MfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTm
DgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}
SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAK{BaFi
Bloat: 6: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 14th March 2018, 08:11

Re: New fork: dcss-spicy

Sprucery wrote:Without summon cap, you can summon several lightning spires, right? Isn't this insanely good? They would kill everything which is not immune to electricity. Like an okblob fort but requires only MP. If they cost 25 MP each, this seems reasonable. With 5 or 7 MP cost... just absurd imo.

Was lightning spire already nerfed?


A single lightning spire is enough in corridors. In the open I would prefer more monsters from a single cast like Shadow Creatures, Summon Forest, Haunt or Monstrous Menagerie. The change makes 80% Summoning spells useless and encourages stupid tactics like being surrounded by 25 friendly rats while exploring (I played this way as Mu of Sif Muna before summon caps were introduced).
Different spells of the same level have different "power" and that's why there are different summon caps, removing summon cap destroys balance.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 14th March 2018, 08:22

Re: New fork: dcss-spicy

A single lightning spire does not kill everything, even in a corridor. Place a few lightning spires in a corridor so they can fire through each other and _everything dies_ (except those immune of course).

I agree that removing summon cap destroys balance and making high level summons useless is not a good way for rebalancing. Lightning spire definitely needs a summon cap.
DCSS: 80: ...MfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTm
DgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}
SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAK{BaFi
Bloat: 6: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 14th March 2018, 08:36

Re: New fork: dcss-spicy

Sprucery wrote:A single lightning spire does not kill everything, even in a corridor. Place a few lightning spires in a corridor so they can fire through each other and _everything dies_ (except those immune of course).


Sorry about confusion. Of course I meant you immediately put another lightning spire if first one dies. So having a "single" lightning spire is enough to ignore banishment and kill almost everything in corridors in Elf. I remember a game where I simply passed turns as long as I didn't need to recast lightning spire.

Edit. To make it clear I believe lightning spire is a broken spell and must be higher level. Unfortunately devs disagree.
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Post Thursday, 15th March 2018, 03:44

Re: New fork: dcss-spicy

Something that would be cool, but maybe outside the scope of this project, would be to have the ability to select a "custom species" and fill in your own aptitudes and innate mutation list. Lots of potential for customization there I think. This has come up before and it's sort of been in the back of my mind, but I haven't gotten around to doing anything with it and it seems like something that would fit your design paradigm.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 15th March 2018, 09:55

Re: New fork: dcss-spicy

This would be awesome for replayability. Poison gas mutation, powered by pain/death, nightstalker, teleportitis, fast/slow movement, mutation resistance, mana shield, VS bite etc.
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Post Tuesday, 20th March 2018, 04:34

Re: New fork: dcss-spicy

Maybe the no summon cap costs should be spellpower ^2 /2 (rounded up). So level 4 would cost 8. Level 9 would cost 41. Still pretty heavy, but more manageable. I have no problem bumping lightning spire to a higher level too if that's what you guys think would be better. In circus animals it was one level higher if I recall.

I like removing the summoning cap purely for removing the complexity cost of having to wonder about how many of every summon I can cast before they start wasting my magic. Yeah I know experienced players have every spell memorized, but part of the purpose of this fork is to make it more approachable for newish players. Same reasoning behind various spellpower caps for different spells. Unnecessary complexity IMO. I'm betting that the reasons behind the cap can be solved in more elegant ways.

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Post Tuesday, 20th March 2018, 05:48

Re: New fork: dcss-spicy

If you want just avoid wasting magic, you might untroduce hard cap instead of soft one. I mean displaying message like "sorry, you cannot get another lightning spire, you have max number already".
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Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 20th March 2018, 05:50

Re: New fork: dcss-spicy

Ok I made the summoning changes and deployed them to my web server.

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Post Tuesday, 20th March 2018, 05:51

Re: New fork: dcss-spicy

As a summoner I don't care about spell level if my failure rate is good enough and I think it should stay this way.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 23rd March 2018, 00:53

Re: New fork: dcss-spicy

Seems like the experience formula has changed; I logged into my previous level 32 character and got bumped down to 29:

_You are now level 31! You are now level 30! You are now level 29!

If I'm reading the github notes right, seems like the exp requirements start changing at level 13; I'd probably avoid changing them below level 27, but it doesn't sound like the changes to the pre-27 levels are that drastic.

Halls Hopper

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Post Friday, 23rd March 2018, 04:15

Re: New fork: dcss-spicy

Yeah as I tried to explain in the README, with no_exp_cap now, it uses a simpler geometric formula for calculating levels past 13, to make it much more difficult to reach ridiculous levels.

With the standard formula, it requires the same amount of exp per level past 13. This meant that with 6m exp you reach level 50. With my changes, that same 6m exp only takes you to level 33. Level 50 would require 440m exp. It would take 6b exp to get to level 60. I think this accomplished my objective here a little better: allowing players to push past level 27, but still keeping the game challenging and fun.
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Post Friday, 23rd March 2018, 04:36

Re: New fork: dcss-spicy

How much XP is required to reach XL27 compared to before?

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Post Friday, 23rd March 2018, 11:10

Re: New fork: dcss-spicy

Have you considered making cost of summoning spells dynamic? Something like normal cost for first Ice Beast, 125% cost for second one, 150% for third etc. and no matter how many Ice Beasts you have you still can summon first Hydra for normal cost? That would allow to use different summons without any penalty while high level spells would still be useful. Currently some level 7+ summons are almost useless, nobody is going to cast Haunt when it costs 24 mana IMHO and Dragon Call for 45 mana leads to extremely annoying playstyle when you have to retreat after every fight.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Saturday, 24th March 2018, 16:13

Re: New fork: dcss-spicy

The amount of XP required for level 27 is almost exactly the same as before, since that was used as the calibration point. Levels below 27 are a little easier to achieve, while levels above 27 are harder as a result.

I like the idea of mana cost going up with number of summons. It's more complicated to implement, but I agree that it would be a better play experience.

I'll implement it by counting total summons, not counting per summon type, which is easier. If someone wants to put in the work to make it summon specific, that would be better probably.

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Post Saturday, 28th April 2018, 22:16

Re: New fork: dcss-spicy

Hello!
I don't know where should I ask about this problem, since it is probably a different person who does the hosting, but when I play online - I can't select difficulties at all, just your regular species/background/weapon and then straight to the game. It is always standard for me, even though RC has multiple difficulties on true. I wish to play it on easy, the whole reason why I looked for an alternative fork.
I can only play Spicy through tor, since Ufetubus server doesn't work in my country. I thought maybe it is the reason why, but Hellcrawl allows me to select difficulties even in tor. I could play it offline, but since you need to compile the master yourself - it is an impossible task for me.
What should I do?
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Post Monday, 30th April 2018, 17:00

Re: New fork: dcss-spicy

not spicy enough, sorry
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