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The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Thursday, 8th February 2018, 01:23
by MainiacJoe
New in trunk. Gives +15 EV, but only while moving. Help me brainstorms ways to do damage while moving. NB I've not yet seen the in-game description, just the commit; I'm on my phone but keep thinking about the new amulet.

Dance back and forth while allies do damage.
Dance back and forth while clouds do damage.
WJC whirlwind. This seems absurdly strong.
Kite a poisoned enemy.
Riposte
It makes waiting for petrify to kick in for stabbing safer.

Anything else?

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Thursday, 8th February 2018, 01:49
by Hellmonk
Dance back and forth while zombie hands does damage.
Kite a sticky flamed enemy.
Minotaur headbutt retaliation.
Demonspawn spiny or passive freeze mutations.
Dance back and forth while Zin reciting.

WJC whirlwind won't give the boost as of 20 minutes ago.

I suspect that the "synergies" are overblown and it's mostly going to get used to help gtfo from bad situations or to ninja more safely. Should be extremely good for stealing the orb on a spriggan or something.

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Thursday, 8th February 2018, 02:01
by Shtopit
Charge at oklobs in Lair. Charge at gargoyles. Charge at elf archers. Sounds useful for melee characters.

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Thursday, 8th February 2018, 04:34
by VeryAngryFelid
Arguably the most useful amulet during early game. Now you have much greater chance to survive early centaur or a pack of killer bees.
Damaging something is less important than surviving.

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Thursday, 8th February 2018, 05:15
by Alphaeus
1) High powered Ring of Fire spell (or Qazlal's storms). Have one of these (or both!) on as you dance around merrily. Not only will you do acceptable damage, but it also will serve as a way to retreat.

2) Use this for high-regen battle-dancing. Cast regen (hopefully you have it to) and then when the battle gets tough start dancing back and forth.

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Thursday, 8th February 2018, 05:20
by Rast
MainiacJoe wrote:Help me brainstorms ways to do damage while moving.


That's not important. Just enjoy the +15 to EV whenever you are moving closer or re-positioning or running away. Epecially when running away.

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Thursday, 8th February 2018, 06:19
by Magipi
I'm thinking of the orb run. Also, when you are ninjaing a rune or the orb.

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Thursday, 8th February 2018, 09:16
by bel
It also works while waiting. So searing ray probably also works better.

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Thursday, 8th February 2018, 09:22
by duvessa
This is 100% amulet of sticky flame

lmao @ disabling it for whirlwind why even have the item at all in that case...

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Thursday, 8th February 2018, 11:02
by stoneychips
You could also just poison stuff and dance/walk away.

(Dunno if it would normally show up early enough in the game to really shine at this while poison is an easy-ish solution, but who knows?)

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Thursday, 8th February 2018, 11:24
by Shtopit
BTW, is it a randart or a normal amulet?

Another use could be with weird movement enemies. Those which recharge, like jumping vampires, jumping spiders, juggernauts, sixfirthies... and batty movement: you can just move away, they will reach you, but you will have the +15 EV.

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Thursday, 8th February 2018, 18:12
by Lasty
It's a normal amulet type, not a unique amulet. It probably does currently work with Searing Ray, but I will want to disable that interaction, just as I disabled the Wu Jian interaction.

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Thursday, 8th February 2018, 21:45
by tasonir
Take a step with a cheibraidos statue form character:

The foo completely misses you! x20

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Thursday, 8th February 2018, 22:02
by Vajrapani
I don't see myself ever wearing this amulet. It requires full HP to wear, it requires movement/inaction and it's disabled with Wu Jian. It seemed like a cool way to have a synergy with a god that is pretty crappy and weak, and encourage picking him, but I guess now it's only really useful for the earlygame and stabbers.

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Thursday, 8th February 2018, 22:26
by Lasty
Just to be clear, you need to hit full hp before the amulet turns on, but then it stays on as long as you keep wearing it. You don't have to maintain full HP to keep it active.

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Thursday, 8th February 2018, 23:30
by Siegurt
Hm, if it works on descending stairs it is at least worth using for that.

I think the problem with it's design it that it encourages too much proactive swapping, swapping in response to a situation (particularly a less common one) is fine, but having it be optimal to wear this while exploring and swap in reflection *every* time you want to kill something is unhealthy, imho.

If it was useful in combat, but only situationally, then there would be a reason for some characters to keep it on all the time.

Also if it prevented swapping for combat (say if it had harm's drain or something) then it would be less useful, but also at least it wouldn't encourage spam swapping.

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Friday, 9th February 2018, 01:18
by Octopode-monk-of-XOM
i had this amulet on a TeVM now tried it some time, it very rarely showed the +15 EV (went from 29 to 44 EV, for example after autotravel) ! but not when pressing 5 on numpad or moving manually! also had it early game on a GnCK, didnt work ! is it supposed to add the bonus to EV visually?

so yea i dont understand how it works

also i wonder about the contrary opinions, bcz if it would work i think itd be damn good. 15 ev is a pretty big bonus and you dont always have regen/mpregen

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Friday, 9th February 2018, 01:31
by duvessa
Lasty wrote:It's a normal amulet type, not a unique amulet. It probably does currently work with Searing Ray, but I will want to disable that interaction, just as I disabled the Wu Jian interaction.
It should probably have a different mechanic if this one can't work without being buried in special cases.

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Friday, 9th February 2018, 02:22
by le_nerd
Do long blades users still riposte when successfully evading? If so, just play LB with the amulet.

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Friday, 9th February 2018, 05:58
by bel
tasonir wrote:Take a step with a cheibraidos statue form character:

The foo completely misses you! x20

This was (one of) the first thoughts which crossed my mind too. Great minds think alike :P

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Friday, 9th February 2018, 07:46
by charlatan
Lasty wrote:It's a normal amulet type, not a unique amulet. It probably does currently work with Searing Ray, but I will want to disable that interaction, just as I disabled the Wu Jian interaction.


IMO, there will always be a "non-combat" way to exploit this thing, whether you're summoning, using poison, clouds, sticky flame, or any number of ways to deal continual damage while not swinging a weapon or casting a spell for the turn that I think it's probably going to be impossible to special-case everything. It's probably better to just leave it with hard set rules of "if your last turn was spent moving or standing still you get EV" which would make for a more elegant item overall.
Maybe the implementation will be either messy by design or too easily exploitable, in which case the thing will get removed. This is Trunk, after all. I do like it, though, and it will be fun suiting up either extreme end of evasion spectrum with it and see how it performs.

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Friday, 9th February 2018, 11:57
by despairbutalsodespair
why not make something remotely cool, like an amulet of lifesteal that would heal you small ammounts each time you do damage. +15 ev while moving (but doesnt work with wu jian) is utter shit and boring

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Friday, 9th February 2018, 13:13
by Shtopit
despairbutalsodespair wrote:why not make something remotely cool, like an amulet of lifesteal that would heal you small ammounts each time you do damage. +15 ev while moving (but doesnt work with wu jian) is utter shit and boring

Vampirism is a weapon brand already, and gods give health on kill. A standard amulet doing almost the same would be overkill.

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Friday, 9th February 2018, 13:56
by Alphaeus
Just reading this, I do agree that this amulet should work with all cases. The limitation is already one that requires circumstantial exploitation, so it's hard enough on that note.

WJC isn't a super-powerful god -- with the right build the damage boosts are notable, but it is far from being something that an EV boost is going to break.

**To be quite frank, synthesizing this amulet with WJC's abilities itself would make for an awesome defensive side to WJC and make him a notable god for characters that struggle defensively.**

That aside, just leave it as a movement-based +15 EV. By late game there are many attacks that totally bypass EV. "Oh, I have 50 EV on my Spriggan!"...and this saves you not at all from smites, AoE spells, etc.

I still think that this would be better as a direct WJC ability (Passive, no cost...capstone, maybe?) rather than an amulet. That solves many exploit cases and also empowers a questionable god.

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Friday, 9th February 2018, 14:54
by Shtopit
BTW, a randart pair of Boots of Uncanny Dodge would be interesting (they give you a chance to dodge the undodgeable, like OoD, smite, fireballs, etc.)

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Friday, 9th February 2018, 16:58
by duvessa
Working with whirlwind is undesirable because it potentially makes whirlwind better than regular melee attacks even when you don't want to move. That's terrible so that interaction definitely needs to be disabled.

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Friday, 9th February 2018, 21:44
by despairbutalsodespair
better not accidentally buff a gutted god that barely anyone plays with

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Friday, 9th February 2018, 22:10
by Vajrapani
duvessa wrote:Working with whirlwind is undesirable because it potentially makes whirlwind better than regular melee attacks even when you don't want to move. That's terrible so that interaction definitely needs to be disabled.


I don't really see why a god passive cannot be allowed to be better than normal melee attacks. WJC without the whirlwind passive just offers serpents lash(a free 2-turn move is still incredibly weak compared to most gods.) and a loud slaying+fog ability that's pretty mediocre for the piety costs.

And, there is an opportunity cost for picking WJC over other gods, so there needs to be some sort of 'compensation' to actually facilitate picking him in the first place. I honestly can't think of a character combo I would take WJC on, even if I had a D:1 altar.

And, there are already some gods that offer things act a disincentive to use normal melee, like Yred's allies for example. Sitting around pressing 's' while a bone dragon/servitor destroys your enemies for you, while you take no damage and are near an escape route, makes it a lot better than regular melee as well. Even when the enemies are trivial, I find myself just waiting behind my undead-nado.

Anyway, WJC is an empty shell of a god, I really don't see how it has made it into the stable release rather than letting it die a dignified death.

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Saturday, 10th February 2018, 00:46
by Siegurt
Vajrapani wrote:
duvessa wrote:Working with whirlwind is undesirable because it potentially makes whirlwind better than regular melee attacks even when you don't want to move. That's terrible so that interaction definitely needs to be disabled.


I don't really see why a god passive cannot be allowed to be better than normal melee attacks. WJC without the whirlwind passive just offers serpents lash(a free 2-turn move is still incredibly weak compared to most gods.) and a loud slaying+fog ability that's pretty mediocre for the piety costs.

And, there is an opportunity cost for picking WJC over other gods, so there needs to be some sort of 'compensation' to actually facilitate picking him in the first place. I honestly can't think of a character combo I would take WJC on, even if I had a D:1 altar.

And, there are already some gods that offer things act a disincentive to use normal melee, like Yred's allies for example. Sitting around pressing 's' while a bone dragon/servitor destroys your enemies for you, while you take no damage and are near an escape route, makes it a lot better than regular melee as well. Even when the enemies are trivial, I find myself just waiting behind my undead-nado.

Anyway, WJC is an empty shell of a god, I really don't see how it has made it into the stable release rather than letting it die a dignified death.


The reason whirlwind shouldn't be better than regular melee is not balance-based, it's tedium based, whirlwinding for *every* attack would be pretty annoying.

You seem to have not played WJC very much. You skipped some of what he offers:
  Code:
1. Free escapes from everything that isn't faster than you (whirlwind). This is pretty damn good for normal-speed characters.
2. Range 1 pre-emptive melee attacks (lunge) and/or range 1 stabs at a bonus (Which you can use whirlwind to set up, if you prefer).
3. Area effect damage with any melee weapon (alternate use for whirlwind).
    * With proper positioning, and lunge, you can get 2. and 3. in combination (Note that lunge also stacks with the with cleave from axes, so it's possible to lunge by something into another critter, and hit it twice with an axe)
4. Short ranged controlled blink (serpent's lash) that can alternately be used to jump up the damage of the special attacks by a significant amount.
5. A loud, expensive, Fog/Slaying thing that increases WJC special attacks by more than regular ones.


Presently whirlwind is only good when you can hit more than one critter with it, or you want to escape or reposition (And you can reposition and use serpent's lash for no net loss in damage, as the pin effect lets you get an extra lunge, which makes up for the single-target loss of damage, so you can effectively put yourself anywhere in relation to a target without any net loss of damage done) But having it only be good 'sometimes' means if you're satisfied with your current position, and there's only one critter, you can just tab it to death for less tedium and no loss of optimal play.

That being said, WJC isn't the most powerful god in the pantheon, I'd take a D:1 WJC over no god with a fair number of characters (really anyone who uses melee attacks primarily can get good use out of him, although if you've specialized in polearms, you don't get as much utility out of him)

He's certainly not as awful as you seem to make him out to be, I'd take WJC over say, Dith on a melee based character (or even on a stabber, honestly)

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Saturday, 10th February 2018, 01:28
by Vajrapani
I've played with WJC plenty of times (and won with it) and while it sounds cool on paper, it doesn't really have the 'buff capacity' of other gods.

When facing a group of tough enemies with any other god, I can either:
A: use my limited escape consumables
B: use my limited buff consumables
C: Use my renewable piety on something like potion petition/ summon demon / triple draw / heroism+finesse /berserk + BiA / drop corpses + animate dead

With WJC, I have options A and B available to me, but not option C. Sure, serpents lash and the passive effects can combine for decent damage, but they're dependent on your actual character strength and don't really 'empower' you as much as other god abilities. Serpents lash and whirlwind with like a +0 long sword is pretty bad compared to just summoning a few minor demons for example.

If I was playing some easy race like Minotaur,HO,Gr, Ce etc. I might pick WJC for the novelty factor, but anyone can win those races as an atheist with their eyes closed so it's not really like god choice even matters on those species , but as a weak race, like an octopode, WJC is simply unreliable and not really an option if you're aiming to win.

In the end, you're playing a slightly fancier atheist game, and that's about it.

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Saturday, 10th February 2018, 03:15
by Alphaeus
Vajrapani wrote:In the end, you're playing a slightly fancier atheist game, and that's about it.


Well, WJC is, after all, just a celestial council of monks that for some reason acts like a single functioning god, so you aren't really believing in a god so much as trying to practice their methodology so you can ascend to Nirvana or wherever they hold their council.

Still, I agree -- if a god is a joke-god, it shouldn't be kept in the game. But I think this topic needs to head to a new thread, not one about an amulet...

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Saturday, 10th February 2018, 03:18
by duvessa
Vajrapani wrote:
duvessa wrote:Working with whirlwind is undesirable because it potentially makes whirlwind better than regular melee attacks even when you don't want to move. That's terrible so that interaction definitely needs to be disabled.


I don't really see why a god passive cannot be allowed to be better than normal melee attacks.
Because it's not a passive! Whirlwinding a monster repeatedly takes much longer in real-time than making normal melee attacks against it.

Thought experiment: what about an amulet that does the opposite, increasing EV (or AC) when it's been several actions since the last time you did move? So waiting, casting spells, making melee/missile attacks etc. will all benefit from it, but kiting won't, and repositioning in combat is punished. This seems like it at least wouldn't create any degenerate interactions like Acrobat+Whirlwind did.

And WJC absolutely offers option C, serpent's lash is an instant 2-tile move and heavenly storm is a perfect scroll of fog that follows you. Surely your criticism applies more to Okawaru, Vehumet, Sif Muna, etc. than it does to WJC.

Re: The new Amulet of the Acrobat

PostPosted: Monday, 12th February 2018, 16:15
by TeshiAlair
I haven't played WJC in a while, did they ever bring back unlimited untargeted walljumps?