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feels like alot of indie games are now called roguelikes
- For this message the author headcrab0803 has received thanks: 2
- Klown, Laraso
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Klown wrote:Someone came up with the term 'Procedural Death Labyrinth' for non-traditional roguelikes.
Binding of Isaac, FTL, etc.
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bcadren wrote:Sector3D functioned by extrapolating the interiors of a place based off of basic floorplan data and couldn't do 'true room over room' (had problems with anything being over top of anything else). Unlike mesh 3D, though it could natively handle non-Euclidean Geometry, like the room that's 4 different rooms depending on how you enter it and the 720 degree hallway (both Duke3D features).
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Fun Fact: Technically, the first RTS is Lemmings (1991). Though a lot of people don't consider it part of the genre, because of how strange it is, it started the indirect control concept (controlling all the {foo} by giving each {foo} orders and letting them do their own thing, instead of BEING the {foo}).
because you control more than one character and are not exploring a dungeon.
in a game that is 120+ hours long, perma-death would be far more cruel
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bcadren wrote:[snipped]
Abominae wrote:I'm just glad someone else knows Populous exists.
TheDefiniteArticle wrote:Legionnaire came out in fucking 82. I wasn't even alive yet!
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Klown wrote:Someone came up with the term 'Procedural Death Labyrinth' for non-traditional roguelikes.
Binding of Isaac, FTL, etc.
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TheDefiniteArticle wrote:But fuck it, let's pretend words don't actually mean anything for a second
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Ayutzia wrote:I argued with the Catacomb Kids developers about marketing their game as a roguelike. It's just a dungeon-themed action platformer, therefore lacking the two most defining attributes of roguelikes: turn-basedness & item destruction. I'm not so sure about that second one, but gammafunk insists.
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Laraso wrote:There is a game called Risk of Rain that advertises itself as possessing "rougelike elements", noting "permanent death" as the main similarity. Things like that really irritate me, because saying that game is similar to rougelike is like saying the firefight mode from Halo was also similar to a rougelike. Unlocked items carry over in-between games so it's not really true permadeath, either.
under_bridge wrote:How is "roguelike" an effective marketing buzzword anyhow?
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Leafsnail wrote:Permanent death, randomly spawning enemies and bosses and randomly chosen stages. Seems reasonably roguelike-ish to me. Also if being able to get items from your previous playthroughs is unacceptable then you'd have to disqualify Nethack.
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Leafsnail wrote:When you say "like a roguelike" I generally assume that means "It possesses the key features that set roguelikes apart from the majority of other games". For me that basically means:
- Random environment generation + Permadeath: Most games ask you to complete a challenge or series of challenges that were specifically designed by the development team. Roguelikes are structured in a fundamentally different way: you have to take on a different randomly generated challenge each time. It's not just the permadeath that matters - it's the interaction between permadeath and a randomly generated set of challenges.
- You will get different tools each time around, and you have to adapt to use them effectively (this is somewhat related to the above point, but I think it's also important).
Attributes like "turn-based" or "grid-based" aren't really distinguishing at all. There are plenty of games which meet those criteria (early Final Fantasy games? Advance Wars?) which are completely and utterly different from roguelikes in every way. Whereas I think if you have the above two qualities then the decisions you make will on some level resemble those you make in a roguelike (depending on how pedantic you are going to be about them). Yeah, you could say for something to be a Roguelike it has to be turn-based, grid-based and non-modal, but surely if something possesses every other factor (and indeed, the important factors) then it isn't wrong to say they have roguelike elements.
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and into wrote:While "platformer with roguelike elements" may be more accurate as a description, it doesn't tell you very much about the game. Platformer implies something about gameplay, but "with roguelike elements," while more accurate, is very vague.
Laraso wrote:If "random" is all it takes to be a rougelike, then would you consider a game like Warframe to be rougelike as well? Because I certainly don't.
Laraso wrote:EDIT: Just to clarify, there are unlockable items in Risk of Rain. As in, items you cannot obtain from the outset, but after fulfilling requirement X it unlocks and becomes available for every character you play afterwards.
Laraso wrote:Obviously "turn-based" and "grid-based" aren't exclusive to the rougelike genre, rather it is the particular combination of such features that really defines what it means to be "rougelike". It's really hard to just say "X + Y = rougelike", there is something more to it, something unique that I can't really put into words. For example, when I look at this, this, and even this, I can almost immediately identify the game as being a rougelike.
However, when I look at this and this, "rougelike" is the very last thing on my mind. And yet, both games self-identify as being "rougelike".
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bcadren wrote:Public question: Do you consider Pokemon Mystery Dungeon a Roguelike?
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Leafsnail wrote:I don't know, I've never played Warframe. Does it have permadeath and does the game refresh with an entirely different set of enemies and levels after you die? If it doesn't then it doesn't meet the description I stated upthread.Laraso wrote:If "random" is all it takes to be a roguelike, then would you consider a game like Warframe to be roguelike as well? Because I certainly don't.
Leafsnail wrote:And? I haven't actually played Risk of Rain, but what is the issue you're identifying here? If Dungeon Crawl made it so that eg, you can't play a Mummy until you've won at least one other race, would that make it not a roguelike (you don't have to comment on whether this would be a good idea)?Laraso wrote:EDIT: Just to clarify, there are unlockable items in Risk of Rain. As in, items you cannot obtain from the outset, but after fulfilling requirement X it unlocks and becomes available for every character you play afterwards.
Leafsnail wrote:As we've already established Risk of Rain does not call itself a roguelike, it merely alludes to the similarity of the game's structure. C Wars is perhaps erroneous in referring to itself as a Roguelike, but then again I have no knowledge of how the game actually plays. "It doesn't look like these three roguelikes" seems like a bad criteria, one could just as easily claim that modern FPS games cannot be such because they do not resemble Doom.Laraso wrote:Obviously "turn-based" and "grid-based" aren't exclusive to the roguelike genre, rather it is the particular combination of such features that really defines what it means to be "roguelike". It's really hard to just say "X + Y = roguelike", there is something more to it, something unique that I can't really put into words. For example, when I look at this, this, and even this, I can almost immediately identify the game as being a roguelike.
However, when I look at this and this, "roguelike" is the very last thing on my mind. And yet, both games self-identify as being "roguelike".
In any case my main point is that there shouldn't be any objection to saying something has "roguelike elements" when the game possesses the main things that make roguelikes actually distinct from other games, particularly when you also describe what the game's differences from traditional roguelikes are in the same breath.
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Laraso wrote:To be honest, I don't even consider "rougelike" to be a genre at all.
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KoboldLord wrote:Laraso wrote:To be honest, I don't even consider "roguelike" to be a genre at all.
Long Live the Queen is a pretty nifty game, honestly. There are quite a few similar games in existence, too, although I'm not sure I'd bundle them separately from other manager sims even though they have a common subject matter.
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If this prevents roguelike purists from getting angry at nothing then it's a good idea I guess.
Binding of Isaac also describes itself as "a randomly generated action RPG shooter with heavy Rogue-like elements" rather than as a rogue-like. Seems like a perfectly fair description to me.
RPG stands for Rocket Propelled Grenade. It is a colloquial term which originated in the FPS genre, appearing in a wide variety of games, such as Call of Duty, Call of Duty 2, Call of Duty Black Ops 2, and Call of Duty Modern Warfare. It's use in describing a game is to refer to the power of the player character's offensive abilities, i.e. "This ability is as powerful as a Rocket Propelled Grenade." Because explosions are entertaining, it is considered advantageous for a game to contain as many "RPG Elements" as possible.
How is "roguelike" an effective marketing buzzword anyhow?
modern FPS games cannot be such because they do not resemble Doom.
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dck wrote:IT'S ROGUE FOR FUCK'S SAKE.
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zrn wrote:Rogue Shooter: The FPS Roguelike
"First-person shooters and roguelikes have finally tied the knot!"
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Cheibrodos wrote:I like stuff smashing stuff
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Patashu wrote:So is Dungeons of Dredmor a roguelike or not, help me out here
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