questioning wizard stats

[Majang]

Wizards are given the highest INT of all backgrounds, and very low STR. While this may appear logical from a flavour perspective, the actual starting book is not compatible with this set-up. The book of minor magic has one very weak attack spell (magic dart), and two more spells which combined may also create damage (conjure flame and meph). The other three spells (blink, call imp and slow) are utility spells, at best, and drive the player to grab the first available weapon, preferably a pole arm, and train that. From that point of view, some STR and more fighting would benefit the player a lot more than the excessive INT. The imps called by call imps are as annoying with high spell power as they are with low spell power. Blink, conjure flame and meph also do their job at any spell power. Slow could probably benefit from the higher INT, but I can't recall that I ever cast it on anything; I probably would if I were in effect a melee fighter. Let's face it, the wizard background does not lend itself to develop into a caster-blaster, but rather into a hybrid who wants to bolster up his weapon-swinging by some utility spells. The many spell schools you need to train in order to develop all these spells also point into that direction. Furthermore, none of the spells is higher than level 3, and are maxed out in their spell power pretty fast, whatever the INT involved.

Those who do need higher INT are the other mage backgrounds (maybe less so the Ice Elementalist and the Necromancer, as these backgrounds' starting books also have more utility spells than real fighting tools). Their goal is to get their conjurations and other damage spells as powerful as possible, and there higher INT really has its place. They may want to pursue a career in which they never ever swing a weapon, or at least don't train any weapon skills. So I suggest that the stats are exchanged between Wizards on one hand and Cj, EE, FE, AE and possibly IE, NE and VM on the other hand. Maybe a more differentiated approach is also possible, tweaking stats a bit more as to what the starting book is leading the player to develop into.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Wz is a secret Vehumet background
If you don't go Vehumet, you will need to hybridize and then Wz stats start to look bad indeed.

[Majang]

Right, with Vehumet things are different, but Wz is then still not my favourite background, because Vehumet has the habit of showing up awfully late, and it sucks to be stuck with your Wz-limitations until you find Vehumet on D9...

[4Hooves2Appendages]

On the other hand, the Wz background benefits from learning more schools (conjurations, summoning, fire, translocations, poison and hexes), while other book background usually only use two or three. Or in the case of Ne and Cj, one. I'm only talking about the early game here.

So the additional Int makes it easier for Wz to actually use all their spells.

I suspect our view of the strength of the spells is pretty different. In my view, magic dart is a strong lvl 1 damage spell. Imps, are extremely strong at Xl 2. They really only start to fall off at some point shortly before Lair. Even then White Imps and Shadow Imps are still pretty good. Conjure Flame is one of the strongest spells in the game. In D, combine with slings / spears for good effects. Slow is good, for anyone with the right aptitudes, but in practice Conjure Flame solves most of the problems that can be solved with Slow.

You are right though, in that the Wz start isn't particularly reliant on spell power.

Reducing Int would make it harder to play though, in my view. In the same way increasing Int would make all other book backgrounds easier to play.

[Sphara]

Vehumet has the habit of showing up awfully late, and it sucks to be stuck with your Wz-limitations until you find Vehumet on D9...

I'm pretty sure this is not accurate, majang. Or I would be at least struck down surprised if this is confirmed by some actual data.

Only problems I have had finding Vehumet altar is that it's sometimes generated in excluded area where flames frequently appear. Otherwise it seems to be just as common as any regular altar that can appear in the Temple.

[4Hooves2Appendages]

I suspect that was just hyperbole, to draw attention to Majang's view that playing Wz without their chosen god is annoying. Of course a Wz can (and for winning, should) pick the first good god that is available. There's absolutely nothing wrong with Fed, Kiku, Goz, etc. for a Wz. But I suspect Majang knows that too...

[Siegurt]

1. The extra int helps wizards get those spells online with less xp, letting them hybidize earlier. Trading int for strength would mean you would have to spend more xp on getting your starting spells online, and have less capability to train weapon skills/ fighting/dodging early, which is more important for hybrids than the damage from strength. It does depend on the race though adding more int to a high int low str race focuses them even more tightly, whereas a low int-high str race opens up considerably.

2. Red imps are the only annoying ones and they show up less with higher spellpower.

[Majang]

Vehumet has the habit of showing up awfully late, and it sucks to be stuck with your Wz-limitations until you find Vehumet on D9...

I'm pretty sure this is not accurate, majang. Or I would be at least struck down surprised if this is confirmed by some actual data.

4H2Apps interpreted correctly that this was said with a very subjective tinge to it. Of course Vehumet shows up like every other God: on D2, when you play a MiBe, and on D9 (to be reached only through upstairs from D10 in an invisible vault) when you go with an elementalist
Actually, with one of the other book-starts it is not bad at all if Vehumet shows up a bit later, so that you have the spell levels ready when the good spells are gifted. But as a Wz you'll want him as soon as possible.

[Majang]

On the other hand, the Wz background benefits from learning more schools (conjurations, summoning, fire, translocations, poison and hexes), while other book background usually only use two or three. Or in the case of Ne and Cj, one. I'm only talking about the early game here.

So the additional Int makes it easier for Wz to actually use all their spells.

I think this is already accomplished by the significant boost to the spellcasting skill, which I believe is very necessary for this background and should stay. But starting out as a hybrid with 4 or 5 STR is suboptimal, to say the least, as most of your damage will have to come from using a weapon.

I suspect our view of the strength of the spells is pretty different. In my view, magic dart is a strong lvl 1 damage spell. Imps, are extremely strong at Xl 2. They really only start to fall off at some point shortly before Lair. Even then White Imps and Shadow Imps are still pretty good. Conjure Flame is one of the strongest spells in the game. In D, combine with slings / spears for good effects. Slow is good, for anyone with the right aptitudes, but in practice Conjure Flame solves most of the problems that can be solved with Slow.

I probably should have left out any judgement of the spells from my initial post, as that seems to distract from what I want to say. Good spells or bad, in that compilation of the book of minor magic they are designed to push the player into a hybrid role, in which so much INT does not help very much, and too little STR is quite a handicap to get the character going. BTW, I agree that Conjure Flame and Meph are very good at what they are doing. Certainly imps apply some damage on their own, but I think their main point is to keep the enemy one tile away from you, so that you can bash them with your pole arm.

[stoneychips]

I dunno, I often aim for Vehumet when I do play casters and doing that means you get used to training up skills to take advantage of it later anyway (more Conj, more spellcasting for slots, whichever elemental school you prefer to push the gift selection toward).

I see Wizard generally as a slight challenge class that's very much about drops and adaptation. An early dagger of venom (rather common) or a really strong sling on the floor (less so) can make a huge difference, reducing the focus on Magic Dart as the obvious safe main gun. A strong wand, particularly confusion or disintegration for all the charges they can hold, can also swing that way. The next couple spellbooks you pick up (and you hope you pick up some, sooner rather than later imo) can change your whole plan. I rarely train up all the spell schools in Minor Magic very far to start -- but having them in there provides synergy with other books that may show up along the way.

Mephitic Cloud is very strong early on but I feel it does take serious training unless your drops are boosting casting it through the roof. There's a huge difference between 2# and 4# power mephitic, and by the time you're meeting orc warriors and yaks, that becomes very important if you're trying to slow them down or cloud-stab. Perhaps this isn't really so much the case on deep elves, I'm not sure, but generally speaking it takes a bit of work to shore up that spell. It's quite worth it though, unless you have picked up some other super attack for the early living targets game.

Of course you can use the Book of Minor Magic to power several other types of character if you can find it. Being able to Blink even a few times is pretty handy for a hunter, for example. I don't really see that you need huge stats to get off the ground with it, though. Some interesting drops can be more of an obvious big help... Which might be another question to dig into.

[duvessa]

How about just giving Wz the same stats as the other mage backgrounds, since there's no reason for it to be different from the other mage backgrounds

[Airwolf]

If you play Wizard like Kiku intended—the hybrid start for Trolls and Ghouls—then you won't notice any Strength issues.

[Siegurt]

I think this is already accomplished by the significant boost to the spellcasting skill, which I believe is very necessary for this background and should stay. But starting out as a hybrid with 4 or 5 STR is suboptimal, to say the least, as most of your damage will have to come from using a weapon.

How low do you think average species strength is? Average starting strength for a wizard is around 7-8, only a few species that already start with a below-average strength will end up with a 4 or 5....