The Tavern

A felid with HP-40% benefits the most from spirit shield, but felids usually lean on spells a lot; sometimes spirit can drain your MP so much that it blocks you from using some MP-dependent ability that could save your life.

added ds mutations

duvessa wrote:Ds, too, can overtake Hu after a few XLs if they're lucky. However, they start out as significantly worse humans, with the -2 experience aptitude being particularly bad, since you need XLs to stop being worse than Hu.

Only Demigods have the -2 experience aptitude.

yeah, typo. Fixed

MAD props for the JJ2 music section, I love the hell out of that game...I should do an LP of it, it's been years.

As someone who plays Ds alot, I want to say that mutations that help Ds not be terrible in the early game are the best mutations. Demonic guardian is the best tier 2 mut followed by spiny. Nightstalker is as you say one of the strongest mut, but its really annoying to use which is a downside. After those id say its PbD = mana shield > ice > pbp = rot > fire.

Scales are pretty much more or less equal with rough black, iridiscent, and repulsion being the better ones.

Tier 3 robust >>>>>> aug >>> fire = negative >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ice

I'd be interested in seeing tier lists for wands, scrolls and potions.

I think that you underate Ar as a backgraound, it gives you at lot of early game power so you can reliably take a super power god and steamroll the rest of the game. I would rating higher than IE. Wand of enslavement is also really good, as it can help with the get shafted 3 floors right into a bunch of stuff stronger than you are situation.

I think you also underrate how strong nem is at 6*. Decks of summoning can be single drawn from at the start of fights and provide ridiculous power for how many of them you get.

I thought the whole point of dith is that (s)he makes your ranged attacks do a ridiculus amount of extra damage at 6*, so I think you underrate him at 6*. (unless they changed that since 0.18, I having really played him since then.)

P.S. you are missing thin skeletal structure.

I've been playing Qazal and Ru exclusively, and I'm thinking Qazal is stronger than Ru, and far, faaaaarrrr, faaaaaaarrrr - like 20 orders of magnitude - better than atheist.

Ru defintely has better active abilities, but not only can you not spam them, you can only use one of them per encounter. Spamming the shit out of Elemental force and upheaval are better than your one use of power leap. Apocalypse is way better than disaster area, of course, but if costs more magic points, drains you, and (again!) you can't spam it.

(PRoposal: Qazal abilities should not cost magic points.)

Ru's attack passives are great, but Qazal's work even when monsters are just walking towards you and not attacking you. A luckly lightning strike will kill enemies while you're just running for the stairs.

On top of that, between repel missiles and bonus shields, Qaz offers up a major bonus to defense. Overall, whole package, I think Qaz' passives are just slightly better.

Qazal Noise is a problem, and the net effect is that there is a huge reward for exaggerate caution - but in a lot of ways this just rewards you more for playing optimally/well.

And if you want the noise to go down, just spam your abilities 'till your out of piety. It's stupid, but it will keep you alive if you're trying for the abyssal rune.

Ru is definitely faaaaarrrr better in extended, but I gotta dispute THE BEST.

1) Either you're walking around not being able to read scrolls (this killed my last Ru character in extended) or drink potions, or with no summoning/allies/translocations or no wands or permanent innaccuracy or SOMETHING that most characters use to stay alive. If you even make it that far. )You might think that Rfire - and RCold - don't matter, but the latter has killed me more than once. I don't know how that sphinx simalcrum even GOT hasted, I didn't think that was possible.)

2) Or you got extremely lucky...

3) Or you spent the whole freaking game waiting for the right sacrifices. Getting that 3rd star of piety on depths 2 means that you're getting way, way, less out of your God abilities for most of the game than you would with... pretty much anyone who isn't Xom. You CAN build a kick-ass build with Ru for extended, but to do so means that you're at a huge disadvantage for something like the first 2/3rds in the game.

Qazal is a terribly designed God. (Someone here called 'em "Stairs, the God" which seems accurate) and the Ru is the best God, conceptually, in the entire game.

But Qazal is simpler, and Qazal is better for a lair branch 3 runer.

counterpoint:

invocations skill required to make ru's actives useful: 0

invocations skill required to make qazlal's actives useful: something significantly larger than 1

counterpoint:

Qzlol makes all the monsters in the floor chase you as soon you enter. Pre Lair the passive aura is bad and after Lair the damage dealt to dangerous monsters isn't very good.

Ru makes all the monsters in the level try to suicide or start wandering around instead of hitting you.

However it is true that Ru's sacrifices are kinda spoilery and need a bit of experience to know which ones are better to get very fast piety with smaller drawbacks. But also Qzlol is extremely spoilery, until getting at full piety no one can realize what the fuck means HEI I'M tHE LOUDESt THING iN THE DAMN MULTIUNIVerSE

CanOfWorms wrote:counterpoint:

invocations skill required to make ru's actives useful: 0

invocations skill required to make qazlal's actives useful: something significantly larger than 1

Yeah, I've been playing a bunch of Ru but I'd actually forgotten that until last night.

And I should've talked up Apocalypse more, which I'm 90% sure is the single best ability in a three rune game. Level 9 spells might be better at insanely high spell-power, but I'm not even convinced of that.

Still, I think the fact that you can use Qazal's abilities more than once in a row makes Him/Her/It better over-all for active invocations.

nago wrote:counterpoint:

Qzlol makes all the monsters in the floor chase you as soon you enter. Pre Lair the passive aura is bad and after Lair the damage dealt to dangerous monsters isn't very good.

Ru makes all the monsters in the level try to suicide or start wandering around instead of hitting you.

However it is true that Ru's sacrifices are kinda spoilery and need a bit of experience to know which ones are better to get very fast piety with smaller drawbacks. But also Qzlol is extremely spoilery, until getting at full piety no one can realize what the fuck means HEI I'M tHE LOUDESt THING iN THE DAMN MULTIUNIVerSE

Also playing Qazal well means spamming your abilities for no reason to get rid of piety to get the noise down in situations where you need to be quiet. Again, I'm not arguing that Qazal is a well-designed God. Just better than Ru.

Also, it takes long enough to build up piety that you can (generally) handle a bunch of monsters coming at you by the time you are at full noise. (It's not the whole level, it's NEVER the whole level, and there are quite a few spellcasting abilities that make you louder than Qazal... at least for one turn.) But you do almost always have a more dangerous encounter at the beginning of each level once you're above **** noise or so when you're a Qazaite.

Buuuuut if you upheavel at even like 7-8 invocations, you can pretty much kill everything anyway.

Edit: Also mummies are better than octopodes.

Reptisaurus wrote: Again, I'm not arguing that Qazal is a well-designed God. Just better than Ru.

Just to clarify, do you mean Qaz is better designed than Ru, or do you mean Qaz is stronger than Ru?

Ru is a well deigned God that presents the best "mini game" in the entire game.

Qazal is terribly designed God of stair dancing and spoilery piety mechanics.

Qazal is stronger in a 3 rune game with careful play.

Reptisaurus wrote:Qazal is stronger in a 3 rune game with careful play.

I would be surprised if many other players shared your opinion. I certainly don't.

There is an easy test. Assume you found 2 altars on d:1 as NaWn. Would you take qazlal or ru?

We all know the answer here. But in many ways Na is a special case. Still, if I wanted to win, I'd take Ru over Qaz on pretty much every character. The odds of getting caught in a bad situation when coming down stairs are certainly lower with Ru.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:There is an easy test. Assume you found 2 altars on d:1 as NaWn. Would you take qazlal or ru?

I am currently playing only Mummy Wanderers and taking Qazal or Ru whichever comes first.

And Qazal, always. You build up piety so much faster and can make actual use of your God in much, much less time.

And the noise is an issue...

But you guys are way, way, way, way, vasssssttttlly exaggerating how bad it actually is. You can run into a couple extra enemies at the beginning of every level because your noise radius covers maybe 15-20% of the level* at top piety. I honestly have no idea how anyone could possibly arrive at the conclusion that Qaz is worse than atheist.

Were there some huge changes in trunk and now Qazal is twice as noisy. Is there something I don't get?

* About. I'm not really sure. IT IS NOT THE ENTIRE LEVEL THOUGH!!!

If you want to play a game where Qazlal is as good as this guy seems to think it is, try hellcrawl. It's still not actually good, but at least it's better than nothing.

give me a tier list of spells

There's the specific topic for that! (I'm on Tapatalk so I won't search to link that sorry )

Reptisaurus wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:There is an easy test. Assume you found 2 altars on d:1 as NaWn. Would you take qazlal or ru?

I am currently playing only Mummy Wanderers and taking Qazal or Ru whichever comes first.

And Qazal, always. You build up piety so much faster and can make actual use of your God in much, much less time.

It's like I suggested you to choose between Vehumet and Makhleb for MiFi and you told me you would pick Vehumet as DEWz.
Mu still can move half-floor after going downstairs to find a good position for fighting, Na does not have this option.

I think it's safe to say that there are humans and then there are not humans.

watertreatmentRL wrote:If you want to play a game where Qazlal is as good as this guy seems to think it is, try hellcrawl. It's still not actually good, but at least it's better than nothing.

Qazlal is, if anything, relatively worse in hellcrawl because stair-dancing is not an option. The recent changes make it a lot more worthwhile, but I don't think they are compensation enough. Overall, it's still pretty bad. To clarify, I don't want Qazlal to be buffed more: it's just not a well-designed God, and no amount of band-aids can really fix it. At least it provides a different experience.

In Crawl, I think Qazlal should have an ability to turn off noise for some amount of time for some piety. One can imagine various downsides to balance the ability. I am not sure it's a good idea, but anyway.

Definitely agree that the design of qazlal is irredeemable, though I stand by my assessment of its overall power level in current hellcrawl.

bel wrote:
watertreatmentRL wrote:If you want to play a game where Qazlal is as good as this guy seems to think it is, try hellcrawl. It's still not actually good, but at least it's better than nothing.

Qazlal is, if anything, relatively worse in hellcrawl because stair-dancing is not an option. The recent changes make it a lot more worthwhile, but I don't think they are compensation enough. Overall, it's still pretty bad. To clarify, I don't want Qazlal to be buffed more: it's just not a well-designed God, and no amount of band-aids can really fix it. At least it provides a different experience.

In Crawl, I think Qazlal should have an ability to turn off noise for some amount of time for some piety. One can imagine various downsides to balance the ability. I am not sure it's a good idea, but anyway.

Well you CAN turn off noise for piety... Just cast elemental force over and over 'till your piety and noise go down.

But it would be a little less stupid - and less spoilery -if this was made explicit.

Upping this topic because I've just search for "Eos" and it's missing.

How would you rank it, Duvessa? Thanks

Added it, thanks. I rank it right above Snakebite. I missed it originally because its entry in art-data.txt is surrounded by removed artifacts.

The Tavern

duvessa's unironic tier lists

Re: duvessa's unironic tier lists

Re: duvessa's unironic tier lists

Re: duvessa's unironic tier lists

Re: duvessa's unironic tier lists

Re: duvessa's unironic tier lists

Re: duvessa's unironic tier lists

Re: duvessa's unironic tier lists

Re: duvessa's unironic tier lists

Re: duvessa's unironic tier lists

Re: duvessa's unironic tier lists

Re: duvessa's unironic tier lists

Re: duvessa's unironic tier lists

Re: duvessa's unironic tier lists

Re: duvessa's unironic tier lists

Re: duvessa's unironic tier lists

Re: duvessa's unironic tier lists

Re: duvessa's unironic tier lists

Re: duvessa's unironic tier lists

Re: duvessa's unironic tier lists

Re: duvessa's unironic tier lists

Re: duvessa's unironic tier lists

Re: duvessa's unironic tier lists

Re: duvessa's unironic tier lists

Re: duvessa's unironic tier lists

Re: duvessa's unironic tier lists

Re: duvessa's unironic tier lists

Re: duvessa's unironic tier lists

Re: duvessa's unironic tier lists

Re: duvessa's unironic tier lists