Replace summon ice beast with summon demon on Su start book


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Halls Hopper

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Post Saturday, 4th February 2017, 13:24

Replace summon ice beast with summon demon on Su start book

I think it would be more interesting aswell as helping differentiate Su from IE.

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Shoals Surfer

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Post Saturday, 4th February 2017, 15:53

Re: Replace summon ice beast with summon demon on Su start b

HONESTLY these are the sorts of things I'd love to see tested in trunk. I think making Summoners less... whatever they are now with a strong, dangerous summon would be fun.
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Slime Squisher

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Post Saturday, 4th February 2017, 15:55

Re: Replace summon ice beast with summon demon on Su start b

Summoner already plays differently than IE.

Only reason adding Summon Demon into some starting book would be make players actually cast it. Oversimplification there ofc but its not among the most favorite spells, even for any summoner.

bel

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Post Saturday, 4th February 2017, 16:34

Re: Replace summon ice beast with summon demon on Su start b

I agree with Sphara, essentially.

Summon Ice Beasts is a stock spell for a long time for IE, but I don't think IE and Su play the same. SIB takes a fairly long time to get castable and Su have other options as well (Lightning Spire is great).

I virtually never memorize or cast Summon Demon. Making Su forced to use it is fine, but I don't really see what is gained over the status quo.
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Saturday, 4th February 2017, 21:24

Re: Replace summon ice beast with summon demon on Su start b

bel wrote:I agree with Sphara, essentially.

Summon Ice Beasts is a stock spell for a long time for IE, but I don't think IE and Su play the same. SIB takes a fairly long time to get castable and Su have other options as well (Lightning Spire is great).

I virtually never memorize or cast Summon Demon. Making Su forced to use it is fine, but I don't really see what is gained over the status quo.

I believe Su centers around Summon Ice Beast and Lightning Spire whereas IE revolves around Summon Ice Beast and... the occasional icicle. It's a good spell. Lightning Spire is strong. I don't believe it polarize how AE plays (correct me if I'm wrong) as opposed to how strong and fragile SIB is.

Summon Demon is a powerful, dangerous spell. I think it'd be tons of Fun while giving Summoner a wider berth for finding more spellbooks. Ice Beast, I repeat, is great, but their HP is so low that managing them is such a headache that I'd really like to see an alternative. All you have to do is dance around the spire.
duvessa wrote:teleportitis is annoying but i dont think you could ever convince me it is dangerous, let alone crippling


duvessa wrote:DCSS Go: jump down the nearest manhole and fully explore the sewers before you go back out

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Monday, 6th February 2017, 13:50

Re: Replace summon ice beast with summon demon on Su start b

With summon demon as bad as it currently is, this is the functional equivalent of just removing summon ice beast from the Su book with no replacement.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 6th February 2017, 15:18

Re: Replace summon ice beast with summon demon on Su start b

Summon Demon is pretty amazing IMO, sure you get some hostile ones occasionally but then you just tele out. I love Su and I'd be excited to see SD in the starting book. Why am I wrong?

Cocytus Succeeder

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Post Monday, 6th February 2017, 16:27

Re: Replace summon ice beast with summon demon on Su start b

Summon demon can be definitely better than ice beast at high spell power and I'd routinely learn it if found before vaults end, but only because it is conveniently placed in the same book with the spell good to offset its drawback.

There's no way summon demon can be a good swap to ice beast in start book unless you enjoy your Su to be fucked by elec Blue demon on xl6
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

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Post Monday, 6th February 2017, 16:33

Re: Replace summon ice beast with summon demon on Su start b

Seems to me that Freeze + Ozo's vs Spammals, Imp and Canine make for very different IE vs. Su starts. Since we're talking about the starting book, after all. Maybe Ice Beast makes them look sorta similar by Lair, but getting there is another story.
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Post Monday, 6th February 2017, 17:11

Re: Replace summon ice beast with summon demon on Su start b

MainiacJoe wrote:Seems to me that Freeze + Ozo's vs Spammals, Imp and Canine make for very different IE vs. Su starts. Since we're talking about the starting book, after all. Maybe Ice Beast makes them look sorta similar by Lair, but getting there is another story.

Am i the only one who relies heavily on gg and scf, with an occasional ice beat for support in tough combats, through most of the lair?

I think gg is the underrated superstar of the su book, at least for a while.
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bel

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Post Monday, 6th February 2017, 17:14

Re: Replace summon ice beast with summon demon on Su start b

I use Guardian Golem a lot.

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Monday, 6th February 2017, 18:01

Re: Replace summon ice beast with summon demon on Su start b

I'd really like to learn how to use Guardian Golem. I can't make sense of it, and either get blown up by it or it dies before detonating.
Won (48). Remaining (15): 5 species: Ba, Fe, Mu, Na, Op; 6 Backgrounds: Tm, AM, Wr, Su, AE, Ar; 3 gods: Jiyv, newNem, WJC

Halls Hopper

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Post Monday, 6th February 2017, 18:05

Re: Replace summon ice beast with summon demon on Su start b

You have to make your summons lose the battle in order for gg to win the battle, it makes no sense spell.

bel

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Post Monday, 6th February 2017, 18:11

Re: Replace summon ice beast with summon demon on Su start b

Golem is useful even if it never detonates. Its main use for is to keep your line of summons alive longer, so they keep fighting and don't create gaps for monsters to slip through. The detonation is just the icing on the cake. If you don't want it to detonate, just recast the spell (GG has a summon cap of one).

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Tuesday, 7th February 2017, 04:40

Re: Replace summon ice beast with summon demon on Su start b

Simplest way to abuse GG is with summon lightning spire. You want the GG and spire roughly parallel to the wave of oncoming enemies with you standing slightly behind (go further, and the GG may follow you too far which ruins your set up).

Worst case scenario, your lightning spire isnt as frail anymore and can possibly survive another hit from say, a hydra. Best case scenario, not only does your LS do more damage but the GG detonates right after and kills more stuff (without hitting you) cuz you positioned him correctly.

Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 7th February 2017, 13:46

Re: Replace summon ice beast with summon demon on Su start b

I was going to say "if you think guardian golem is good you are probably using summons the wrong way" but thats how every playstyle argument goes, the game is easy enough that you can make anything work and project that as "the best strat", so i could be wrong and its probably me who dont know how to use summons.

My main motive for making this post was "it would be great if the 'strongest' starting spell on two different backgrounds were not the same".
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Tuesday, 7th February 2017, 16:11

Re: Replace summon ice beast with summon demon on Su start b

I'd rather remove summon ice beast from the book of callings - it has altogether too many spells for a starter book. Canine Familiar is a perfectly respectable replacement for ice beast, especially at higher power levels.
If we're to replace the spells as the OP suggests, then one should reintroduce the single-target abjuration spell into that book as well, otherwise summon demon merely becomes an inevitable death trap for the low level chars who still rely on that book.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 7th February 2017, 16:29

Re: Replace summon ice beast with summon demon on Su start b

Its pretty safe to call hostile demons when you are surrounded by other summons, plus its not like you MUST use the spell by the time you get it or everytime you want a summon, learning some basic danger assessment is key. Also, i hate to say it, but summon demon is actually very exploitable.

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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Thursday, 11th May 2017, 13:48

Re: Replace summon ice beast with summon demon on Su start b

I approve OP.

Summoner's book is a bit too weak; Lightning Spire blows Ice Beasts out of the water.

Let Summoners have some fun!
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Spider Stomper

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Post Friday, 26th May 2017, 00:50

Re: Replace summon ice beast with summon demon on Su start b

nago wrote:screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok


Odd... that's what I usually do. My level 10 mummy wizard just ran across Gastronok, ran up to him with a rapier and cut him up with it. Had 76/85 hit points at the end of the battle, pre level up.

(True, the wizard had +9 plate mail of something, +8 fragile rapier of draining, still had a 35% fail on mephitic cloud because he hadn't trained magic since the beginning, but that's how it goes. I mean, the wizards I'd tried just before that to NOT specialized combat died by a kobold with a haste potion, using G to move and seeing the lightning beast whatever it's called go invis and then reappear before he decided to stop, and forgetting to memorize blink when reached level 2. This one found chain mail, then plate, and used it. Wizards have to be all melee training all the time until they feel cocky enough to screw around and die, I think)
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Barkeep

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Post Saturday, 27th May 2017, 16:17

Re: Replace summon ice beast with summon demon on Su start b

yiuf'd, as this months-old thread wasn't exactly GDD material to begin with and reopening it isn't likely to change it. Feel free to come back to GDD with a more fleshed out proposal, folks.

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Post Sunday, 4th June 2017, 01:31

Re: Replace summon ice beast with summon demon on Su start b

Summon (greater) demon was better when there was more tele.

I miss the tele ring, tbh. Hell and pan were more fun.

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