The Tavern

Current ogres are boring. We already have Draconians as nude robust spellcaster, so we don't need new ogres

Past ogres were boring as well, because their distinction was only being capable of using GC, GSC, large rocks, which had been boring as well,
so just reverting M&F apt change is not a good idea

So please remove that boring fatsoes and buff Trolls' M&F apt to +1

Then now we have "robust, giant species which can use among GC, GSC, claws and large rocks, with much more interesting characteristics"

Man, that's the laziest logic ever, New Ogres have a number of differences from Draconian (Among them, more Hp, and less Ac in the early game, ogres still have the capacity to use dragon armour late game, and they still have access to GC/GSC and large rocks, and the lack of a color specialization.)

The fact that Dr can't wear body armour, and Ogres have less options for body armour doesn't make them particularly similar.

New ogres and draconians have less similarities than many other pairs of races, claiming they should be removed because they are too similar doesn't make any sense.

While I love new ogres and agree with Siegurt on this, I just want to say it would be a crime, a CRIME, for trolls to have any positive aptitudes. Unarmed at 0 is their highest skill and it should stay that way. I'm not even sure they should have anything else tied with it - currently it's their only 0 skill, but if M&F went to 0, I suppose that would only be a misdemeanor.

tasonir wrote:While I love new ogres and agree with Siegurt on this, I just want to say it would be a crime, a CRIME, for trolls to have any positive aptitudes. Unarmed at 0 is their highest skill and it should stay that way. I'm not even sure they should have anything else tied with it - currently it's their only 0 skill, but if M&F went to 0, I suppose that would only be a misdemeanor.

why? Almost every troll use claws as their main weapon, raising M&F to +1 is just increasing their options
Using GSC with +1 apt is not stronger than using +0 apt unarmed with claw 3, so it wouldn't be a significant "buff" to trolls

Also it makes sense in game flavour. I can imagine some tolkien trolls roaming and wielding giant brute woods

papilio wrote:
tasonir wrote:While I love new ogres and agree with Siegurt on this, I just want to say it would be a crime, a CRIME, for trolls to have any positive aptitudes. Unarmed at 0 is their highest skill and it should stay that way. I'm not even sure they should have anything else tied with it - currently it's their only 0 skill, but if M&F went to 0, I suppose that would only be a misdemeanor.

why? Almost every troll use claws as their main weapon, raising M&F to +1 is just increasing their options
Using GSC with +1 apt is not stronger than using +0 apt unarmed with claw 3, so it wouldn't be a significant "buff" to trolls

Also it makes sense in game flavour. I can imagine some tolkien trolls roaming and wielding giant brute woods

I think lowering their UC apts to -2, then raising their non M&F weapon apts to 0 would be great.

Alternatively, remove ogre and also remove GSC/GC as player-wieldable weapons.

watertreatmentRL wrote:Alternatively, remove ogre and also remove GSC/GC as player-wieldable weapons.

And that would make the game better in what way?

Simple: There would be no ogres or GC/GSC.

Elitist wrote:I think lowering their UC apts to -2, then raising their non M&F weapon apts to 0 would be great.

Certainly better than giving them +1 maces! My original post was along the lines of protesting any buff to mummies - they're meant to be terrible, don't make them better! Trolls are very strong, but one characteristic of them is poor aptitudes, and I'd hate to see them suddenly have good aptitudes to go along with all their immense hp/mutation strength. Keeping them all negative with 0 in only unarmed is part of the 'soul' of trolls. Yes I am aware this sounds slightly silly, but I'm still at least half serious about this

Honestly I'm not even sure that -2 UC on trolls would hurt them that much. They could certainly tolerate -1 pretty easily. Claws 3 is +6 damage starting out, and even -2 aptitude just means they'll be 2-3 levels lower through most of the game, so they'd still have better UC than a 0 aptitude race without claws. It would make them a bit less newbie friendly, but still quite powerful for experienced players. Eventually you'd get high UC anyways, despite the aptitude.

What about reducing trolls' hp modifier to 0 and buffing their weapon aptitudes?

duvessa wrote:What about reducing trolls' hp modifier to 0 and buffing their weapon aptitudes?

If their weapons could be flat save for UC, sure! But I wouldn't want them to have average HP. Would you be willing to compromise with HP 1? I thoroughly enjoy Ogres having the highest HP in the game.

duvessa wrote:What about reducing trolls' hp modifier to 0 and buffing their weapon aptitudes?

I mean I like the large races having +30% hp, so it'd just depend on how powerful you want them to be. If trolls were changed to +0 hp and only got +weapon aptitudes, that would be a significant nerf. They'd still be about average, since they're currently quite strong, but I like having a simple strong race to compete with minotaur as newbie friendly berserkers. And they become really insanely tanky if you manage to get statue form going, but that's 'balanced' in that it's quite hard to get going for a troll. Of course after you get it going it isn't quite balanced anymore

If you wanted to split up the large races by doing something like trolls have +20% and ogres have +30 or +40%, that could be interesting.

The Tavern

Remove Ogres and buff Trolls' M&F apt

Remove Ogres and buff Trolls' M&F apt

Re: Remove Ogres and buff Trolls' M&F apt

Re: Remove Ogres and buff Trolls' M&F apt

Re: Remove Ogres and buff Trolls' M&F apt

Re: Remove Ogres and buff Trolls' M&F apt

Re: Remove Ogres and buff Trolls' M&F apt

Re: Remove Ogres and buff Trolls' M&F apt

Re: Remove Ogres and buff Trolls' M&F apt

Re: Remove Ogres and buff Trolls' M&F apt

Re: Remove Ogres and buff Trolls' M&F apt

Re: Remove Ogres and buff Trolls' M&F apt

Re: Remove Ogres and buff Trolls' M&F apt